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2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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nickwarner
Veteran
/ Moderator
Oct 29, 2012, 8:52 PM
Post #76 of 188
(2659 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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You'd have to pay for my beer while I was working on it, and being I live in WI you might be better off getting a new trans at that price.
Is that piston an aluminum one with replaceable lip seals or a plastic one with the lip seal bonded to it? If the latter, float test it. If it floats, tie it to a brick and repeat the float test. If the molded aluminum, and not cracked, just put a new lip seal on it. It was made to be reused.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 29, 2012, 10:09 PM
Post #77 of 188
(2656 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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It's the aluminum one with replaceable lip seal. It has some grooves worn in the side of it from the clutch plates rubbing. It almost looks like the clutch plates could catch in the grooves when they engage. They aren't very deep grooves but you can feel the lip of each groove with your fingernail. Do you think it would be okay? I could sand down the grooves so it's smooth if you think it doesn't need replaced.
I think that brick trick only works in the Yukon.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 30, 2012, 5:04 AM
Post #78 of 188
(2649 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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When in doubt throw it out.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 30, 2012, 6:49 AM
Post #79 of 188
(2645 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Sounds good to me DS. Thanks.
I received another email from the tranny guy about the 3rd and input clutch. Here's what he said.
"Hi Brian, I know exactly what you are referring to in the update manual. Its purpose is to show the changes to the newer models and not that it replaces the old parts so I see how this could be misunderstood but you are safe. The new replacement wave plates do have teeth all the way around them and originals just had the evenly spaced lugs as you noticed so no worries." I'm going to try and find the input clutch piston locally. I'm hoping a salvage yard or local tranny shop might have one I can buy. My nylon thrust washers are suppose to be in today. I also need to get another lip seal for the input shaft. I screwed one up installing it last night. I'm hoping the dealership will have that one. I was going to use the old but the new lip seals have an updated design. The lip on the seal is a little long and is now angled different. It's suppose to correct an issue that was noticeable in the original design. I made a lip seal installer out of an old screwdriver this morning. I took it to the bench grinder, ground it thin and took off all the sharp edges. I looked at 3 places for a lip seal installer over the weekend but no luck. Any idea where I can get one? I tried using a feeler gauge but I don't have much room inside the 3rd clutch housing. I guess I could probably use a thin wooden dowel and attach a looped wire at the end.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 30, 2012, 3:05 PM
Post #80 of 188
(2641 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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I called a tranny shop to see if they had any parts. He gave me a number to an older guy who has been rebuilding transmissions for over 50 years. He just has a little shed out behind his house where he works on them. Instead of just the input clutch piston he sold me the whole input/3rd clutch assembly for $30. My original housing had some wear on the gear teeth on the end of the shaft so I'll by using the one he sold me. He said from the looks of my input clutch piston that something was wobbling around. He also said if I have any question just give him a call. I got lucky finding this guy.
I started replacing all the seals, O-rings, etc this afternoon. I also started checking over everything real good. When looking at the 2nd clutch housing it looks like the teeth may be worn but it also looks like they might have been made like this. The longer ones on the bottom look fine. There is then a small space, maybe an 1/8" and then there are some smaller teeth on the top. What do you think? What I might do is take anything that looks like is worn and take it all to the guy I bought the input housing assembly from. He's about a half hour drive away so will probably do that tomorrow.
Another thing I did was jack up the right axle seal. I have a seal driver set but it just bent the seal downward. If it's going to happen it's going to happen to me. Luckily I should be able to get a new seal at a parts store instead of the dealership.
What do you think on the 2nd clutch housing? Worn or made like that?
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nickwarner
Veteran
/ Moderator
Oct 30, 2012, 5:16 PM
Post #81 of 188
(2634 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Worn. Thats grooved up. You can see where the original material was. Float test it.
For the lip seal installer I have I was on EBay and typed in 4l60E since thats what I was after. When I tried typing in anything more specific I got nothing. Had to sift through it but found a good one.
Good job finding some local contacts for parts. The independant guys usually keep up with the updates as you see and tend to have pleny of extra stuff lying around for sale at a reasonable price. You found a gold mine.
And we made it to page 4.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 30, 2012, 5:36 PM
Post #82 of 188
(2633 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Wow, the reverse drum beat the crap out of the second clutch housing. It isn't supposed to look like that. How does the reverse drum look?
What it is supposed to look like:
Reverse drum
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Oct 30, 2012, 5:46 PM)
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 30, 2012, 6:23 PM
Post #83 of 188
(2625 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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The reverse drum is jacked up too. I'm carving pumpkins with the wife and kids right now so will post a picture in a bit.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 30, 2012, 6:31 PM
Post #84 of 188
(2624 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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You can use the reverse drum to core out your pumpkin. Then use the 2nd clutch housing for a pumpkin stand, so it doesn't roll around.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 30, 2012, 7:07 PM
Post #85 of 188
(2621 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Ha...I'll have to decide between your idea or Nicks. I guess I could use it for the pumpkin and then tape it to a brick and float test it.
Looks like I'll be heading to the old tranny builder's house tomorrow. If I'm in doubt of any part it's coming with.
I'm glad you mentioned the reverse drum. You can see exactly how it lined up to the 2nd clutch housing. Actually, it decided to line up in a new and unimproved way. The parts just keep adding up. If I would'nt have found this guy with cheap tranny parts this tranny may have ended up, as Nick would say, in plastic wrap and beer cans.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 30, 2012, 7:31 PM
Post #86 of 188
(2618 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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That's what happens at the dealer some times. It probably also happens at the independents too. You tear the transmission apart, inspect everything, and figure out the cost of what it needs. If the cost of the parts to fix it exceeds the cost of a SERTA, it gets a SERTA. The nice thing about the SERTA replacement scenario is there might be some good parts that you can use from the non repairable transmission to fix another. Eventually, you end up with a lot of extra parts to fix other transmissions with. I'm sure the retired tranny tech your dealing with has a bunch of stuff.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Oct 30, 2012, 7:33 PM)
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 31, 2012, 6:43 AM
Post #87 of 188
(2610 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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My cost is still way below the cost of a SERTA but it has cost a little more than I had planned. I guess that's what happens when you have no idea what you're doing..ha ha. Right now, not including the rebuild kit I have about $110 in parts. I ordered the pump stator from a place on ebay. When I got it the bearing was missing a needle. In the auction they said it was in great shape and ready to go. I emailed them to ask for a pump shaft and just mentioned the bearing but said I would just pick one up from the parts store. They ended up sending me a new one plus a pump shaft for free. Talk about taking care of your customers. I wasn't even expecting them to send me a new stator let alone a pump shaft.
I'm gonna have to head to the dealership this morning and see if I can get new Teflon sealing rings. I jacked one up getting it on the drive sprocket shaft. I'm sure those aren't cheap. I'm guessing $40 for the kit. This time I'm going to see if I can pay the retired tranny guy to install them for me. So, by the time I purchase a new reverse drum, Teflon rings and paying to have the seals installed I'll probably be close to $200. With the master rebuild kit I'll be around $450. Still cheaper than a crate tranny but we are creeping up there. More importantly I'm having fun with this and learning a few things. With the Teflon seals I've learned that there's a reason why they have special install tools that are needed. We'll get there. I'm just going to keep taking my time and make sure it's rebuilt the way it's suppose to be without taking any shortcuts.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 31, 2012, 2:45 PM
Post #88 of 188
(2605 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Well, I went to see Chuck, the semi retired tranny guy, to get some parts. I also had him look at some of my parts and I'm glad I did. He did say my 2nd clutch housing was okay to use but I did need the reverse drum, or stove pipe, as he called it. That wasn't the only thing I needed. I also need the 4th clutch hub and shaft and the sun gear. That explains why my first symptom was losing overdrive before every other gear went. You can see in the pictures how the teeth on the 4th clutch shaft were completely worn smooth along with the teeth on the inside of the sun gear. He sold me everything I needed for $20. What a deal. He also explained some things to me. He said I should remove every 3rd spring on the return spring assembly within the 2nd clutch housing. He said that would make it shift tighter into 2nd. He said the trannies nowadays are designed to wear out quicker than they should, and with a few adjustments, you can make them last longer. This guy has a heart of gold and I can tell he enjoyed passing on his knowledge and tips. He told me to stop by or call if I needed anything at all. He still does rebuilds. He's doing a 2008 Mercedes right now along with 2 others at the same time. Geez, if I had 3 trannies laying out I'd have multi-make transmissions going back into vehicles. I ordered some new Teflon rings at the dealership today. They will be in tomorrow and then I'll really be able to start putting this tranny back together.
All of my other parts are good to go. Below are pictures of the damaged parts that I needed today.
4th Clutch Hub and Shaft
4th Clutch Hub and Shaft
Sun Gear
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 31, 2012, 5:16 PM
Post #89 of 188
(2603 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Sounds like you got yourself hooked up now. Before you know it, you'll be cruising down the road in your van.
I'm curious as to why Chuck said the 2nd clutch housing was ok to use. I'd personally wouldn't use it because the reverse drum would still be able to chuck around and possibly take the rest of the splines out.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Oct 31, 2012, 5:18 PM)
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 31, 2012, 6:35 PM
Post #90 of 188
(2597 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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He said as long as it fits in there tight it's fine to use and it fits in there very tight. It looks like it's just held in tight by the very bottom edge of the teeth though. Only the top portion is worn. That doesn't give much for the drum to grab but he seems to think it's fine. I agree with you though, even if it fits in tight why take the chance? Then again, he still rebuilds trannies for local shops so you wouldn't think he'd want any kind of a bad name. I almost said something when he said I could still use it but didn't want to come off as disrespectful. Maybe I'll throw it on the floor and crack it or something and then tell him I need one. I might just look online and see what I can find.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 31, 2012, 6:38 PM
Post #91 of 188
(2596 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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You could do that or just tell him the truth and your concerned about that. The drum's teeth might not sit down that far in the area where it isn't worn out. I'd be leery because you don't want that ripping apart later on when you go into reverse.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 31, 2012, 8:21 PM
Post #92 of 188
(2594 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Yeah, I probably should've just told him I didn't want to use it. You're darn right I don't want it ripping apart. If something unforeseen causes failure, I can live with that. But, if it's something that I knew I should've replaced or done, then I'll be pissed at myself. Plus, if I don't succeed at this tranny rebuild I'll be leery about trying anything like it in the future. That would suck because I really enjoy it.
Thanks for the advice DS.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Nov 1, 2012, 12:28 PM
Post #93 of 188
(2577 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Well, I stopped by Chuck's house a little bit ago. I gave him the old bands out of the tranny since they were in good shape and I had already ordered new. I then asked him about the 2nd clutch housing and told him I was nervous about using it. He said again that the other one would be perfectly fine. He said that the old one has more than a 1/4" of spline and that's plenty for what it does. I'm not chancing it though. I ended up getting one off of ebay and it will be here tomorrow.
One other question. I've installed plenty of seals in the past to know how but these are giving me hell for some reason. I installed the right axle seal yesterday. I ruined the one that came with the kit so purchased another one. That one went in fine. I'm now having the same problem with the converter seal. They're going in cock eyed. I even tried pressing it in with a tool I rigged up but the same thing keeps happening. Any helpful tips?
(This post was edited by MarineGrunt on Nov 1, 2012, 1:34 PM)
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 2, 2012, 5:24 PM
Post #94 of 188
(2568 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Those are kind of tricky unless you have the special installer tool.
What I do is take two pieces of 2x4. Put the seal up to the bore and then have someone hold one 2x4 on one side of the seal. Use the other 2x4 and a hammer and tap it in a little. Then tap the other 2 x 4. Alternate between the two. If you have two hammers, you and your partner can hit both sides at the same time and it should pop in.
I'm sure there are other tricks, but that one works for me.
If there isn't anyone around to help you. You can take other piece of wood and lay it over the top (screw it together) of the two on either sides of the seal. Then you can smack the middle.
I've made a little drawing to show the contraption...LOL
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Nov 2, 2012, 5:58 PM)
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Nov 2, 2012, 7:08 PM
Post #95 of 188
(2557 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Thanks DS. I'll definitely give that one a try. I have a seal installer set, but two seals later and I jacked up both of them. I guess with the 2X4's I have less of a chance of damaging the wood or the case.
I believe I have every new part needed to put this thing back together. I got the second clutch drum today along with the correct lip seal for the 3rd clutch. The first kit from the dealership had two lip seals that were the same size when one should've been a tad smaller. I took it back to them yesterday so they ordered another. I picked it up today and it had the correct ones. The first set was packaged wrong. If it's gonna happen it's gonna happen to me. One thing I found interesting is GM doesn't have the updated lip seal. The updated lip is a little bit longer. Maybe it was old stock or they just stuck to the original design. I got 143k out of the first tranny so I'm not going to worry about another 1/16" on the lip seal and just use the new one I got today.
Remember in a previous post I mentioned that Chuck said to take out every 3rd spring on the 2nd clutch spring assembly? He said he does it to everyone he rebuilds and highly recommends it. Suppose to help the shift into second. I think he said a tighter shift. What are your thoughts on that?
We're starting to chug along now.
By the way....Picasso doesn't have crap on you!
Seriously though.... all diagrams are helpful and I appreciate all the time you spend helping me along. Wouldn't have made it this far without your help.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 2, 2012, 7:31 PM
Post #96 of 188
(2556 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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To be honest I am not sure what other reactions might occur. We didn't modify other than what the factory specified in a TSB during overhauls. I am sure it will have a more positive feel to the shift with a couple of springs removed, but I don't know if that will cause the TAPS (transmission adaptive pressure) to compensate somehow. You'll have to ask. The PCM uses a program called TAPS. TAPS basically is designed to increase or decrease line pressure to compensate for excessive times between shifts as the clutches and components wear in the transmission. It probably won't affect that, but who knows.
Read this:
http://www.sonnax.com/...05-05.pdf?1289926276
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Nov 2, 2012, 7:39 PM)
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Nov 3, 2012, 7:18 AM
Post #97 of 188
(2544 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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That's the kind of info I like reading about. I kind of wish I would've read up on how a tranny works before I even started the rebuild. I have no idea how a tranny technically works. I bet if I would've studied up how everything works it would've made the rebuild a little easier. After reading that Sonnax article I see what you mean about it possibly messing with the TAPS. (When I see "TAPS" it reminds me of boot camp, standing at the end of my rack at attention, with TAPS playing throughout the whole base)
Chuck said that sometimes when you remove every 3rd spring that you sometimes have to add another clutch plate. He said you just want to make sure that it spins.
You know, being that this is my first rebuild, I think I'll just leave it as is. I think it may just confuse me more if I'm having to add plates, remove plates, etc. Plus, if for some reason it doesn't shift right when I get it back in, I think it would be easier to find the problem if I don't go changing stuff around. He did say that he does it to all of his transmissions but he knows what he's doing to make up for removing springs. I don't. If I end up doing that, and it doesn't shift right, I wonder if scanning the tranny would give a false readout or something? Maybe I'll wait until a buddy asks me to rebuild his transmission!..haha..kidding
Well, I need to find another input inner lip seal. I didn't have the piston lined up right for the clutch plates to go in and had to take it back out. I tried turning it with all the spring assemblies in place but it would've move and I didn't want to tap too hard. When removing the bottom snap ring it jumped off of my snap ring pliers and landed right on the lip seal. It didn't mess it up too bad but has a miniscule tear on the bottom. I have one other lip seal but has a small pinhole where I had to remove it the other day. Chuck said it would be okay because the pinhole wasn't in the lip and said to go ahead and use it. I ordered new instead. I'm wondering if Chuck takes some shortcuts. I think he has worked out of his shop behind his house his whole life and didn't have instant access to parts so he took chances. Maybe it would be fine, I don't know, but I'm not going to take a chance with a small pinhole even if it's not on the lip itself. I'm going to try a local tranny shop and see if they have a lip seal laying around that they will sell me. If not, looks like it's the dealership again and probably won't get it until Monday or Tuesday. Oh well, I still have to clean up the valve body, install the oil pan gasket, check out other stuff under the Venture, etc.
What do you think about a shift kits? I've never used one on previous vehicles but seems like many do. What are you thoughts on shift kits?
*Update*
I buddy of mine gave me a number to another local tranny rebuilder. I decided to call him and see if he wouldn't happen to have a lip seal. I found another very helpful tranny builder. He seemed excited that I was attempting a rebuild myself, gave me an "atta boy", and thanked me for being able to help me. Between you guys, Chuck, and the new tranny rebuilder Brad, I feel very fortunate. He does air brushing too and is going to be heading through my town and is bringing a lip seal kit and dropping it off. Right before I called him I did find a dealership that had it but was an hour and half away. Instead, I'm getting home delivery. So, the rebuild can continue this weekend. I'm definitely going to compensate him for his time and willingness to help.
(This post was edited by MarineGrunt on Nov 3, 2012, 7:53 AM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 3, 2012, 9:10 AM
Post #98 of 188
(2539 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Of course I'm watching Note on "shift kits" if what I think the intended purpose is and only drove one (ancient) done by factory or could be done to many was to shorted the smooth clutching time between shifts somewhat the effect of shifting a standard letting clutch pedal just pop off your foot feel which was said to actually prolong life of normal wear items and improve 1/4 mile times. Then and perhaps what was done is add a plate to valve body to alter the path of fluid flow to be fast to next move it does.
If, and I say IF that is the sole purpose I would NOT alter it unless all of a sudden you want to race this thing. It may not be about that but fear changing anything already known with this sucker with the known changes already to toss this into the picture if it didn't shift properly (let's not hear that) when all done - T
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 3, 2012, 9:25 AM
Post #99 of 188
(2537 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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I remember that in AF basic training too. Standing at attention while Taps played. When it was over you better had your ass in the bunk before the TI came around. Occasionally you would hear someone say "Good night Mary Ellen or John Boy". Every so often someone would let out a loud fart and you would hear a few laughs. Even though it was a stressful situation, there were times like that that kind of broke some of the tension.
Shift kits. I believe that Sonnax makes some valve body improvement kits. I guess it clears up some issues, which ever they are. Shift kits were mostly used for causing the transmission to shift harder or change timing. I remember putting one in an old C-4. It is a lot easier to experiment on a longitudinal transmission because of the valve body accessibility issue. You may put a kit in and not like the way it feels, so you would have to rip the side cover off and make changes. Don't know how your wife would feel about the van chirping the tires going into second on her way to get the kids from school.
It's great that Chuck and Brad are helping you out with this. You appear like a guy that is easy to get along with.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Nov 3, 2012, 10:22 AM
Post #100 of 188
(2533 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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"You appear like a guy that is easy to get along with." I'm sure my wife would beg to differ!
I think I'll pass on the shift kit. I was under the impression that it just helped the tranny shift smoother. I know nothing about them. My Sierra has a small jerk from 1st to 2nd. It only has the slight jerk when going slow. If I'm accelerating it shifts perfectly smooth. Would a shift kit help with that at all or is something else going on? I've heard complaints of the same thing.
Good ole' boot camp. I know exactly what you're talking about. After we'd pt the DI's would make us stand at the end of our racks, strip down, and stand at attention until they told us to run into the community showers for our 30 second shower. Sometimes they'd make us stand there for a half hour. One time we were all standing there naked and another "dark green" recruit said, "Sir, Recruit Washington requests permission to use the head, sir". The DI got in his face yelling telling him to have some discipline and hold it. Again, Recruit Washington says, "Sir, Recruit Washington can't hold it much longer and requests permission to use the head, sir". The DI ignored him. About a minutes later I hear what sounds like water dripping onto the floor. I look out of the corner of my eye and see Recruit Washington bare ass naked, standing at attention, pissing right on the floor. There were then 3 DI's right in his face, to the side of course, blabbering away at him. The DI's had a hay day with that one! You know when they were by themselves they were laughing about that one.
That one, along with a few others, I will never forget!
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