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2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 23, 2012, 7:20 PM
Post #51 of 188
(2229 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Pop the seal out. It is pressed in and is not to be reused. That seal should come in your kit.
Don't worry, you'll get it back together and it will work just fine. Have faith. Your paying attention to detail and that is the most important thing.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Oct 23, 2012, 7:21 PM)
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 23, 2012, 7:32 PM
Post #52 of 188
(2225 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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If it wasn't for you guys I don't think that I would've had the cahonas to attempt this. It's nice having you guys in my corner.
Is this the part I need?
Don't post links..... especially e-bay
just post the picture/
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Oct 24, 2012, 3:10 AM)
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 24, 2012, 6:52 AM
Post #53 of 188
(2206 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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I'm looking to order a torque converter. There seems to be a lot of different brands out there. Does it matter which one I get? There are some remanufactured on Ebay from $110 to $160. The brand is Recon. Will one of those be okay? This might be a dumb question, but since there wasn't much metal floating around in the tranny, can the old one be reused if I flush it out? I don't like half assing anything so will definitely buy a new one if recommended.
I found a Kent Moore End Play tool on ebay for $32.95 and free shipping. New it's over $200 so got a pretty good deal.
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nickwarner
Veteran
/ Moderator
Oct 24, 2012, 4:57 PM
Post #54 of 188
(2200 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Recon is a good brand. I replace the torque convertor at every overhaul. The one you have may be good now, but its 10 years old with plenty of miles on it. How far do you trust it? The torque convertor clutch has been wearing since day one and I'd give it a new one.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 24, 2012, 6:09 PM
Post #55 of 188
(2195 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Point taken. I don't trust it. I hate to have a like new transmission only to have a $100 part ruin it all and with my luck it would happen.
I ordered everything I needed today. Hopefully I won't run into anything else which I don't think I will. Going to clean everything up while I'm waiting for the rebuild kit to get here. I should have it by Friday.
I pulled the bolts from the oil pan earlier. Is there a trick to getting the pan off without prying like crazy or did I miss a hidden bolt? I didn't want to force anything so I left it alone for the time being. Pulled all the 10mm bolts I could see and also the lower compressor bolt. It doesn't look like there's anything else but it seems to be held on pretty tight.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 24, 2012, 6:16 PM
Post #56 of 188
(2193 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Don't forget the bolts on the sides of the oil pan.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 24, 2012, 8:38 PM
Post #57 of 188
(2184 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Before I found this forum I would always drive myself nuts and get so po'd when something wouldn't do what I thought it was suppose to do. Now I stop what I'm doing, come one here, and ask. It keeps my tools from being thrown across the garage.
Like always, exactly the advice I was hoping for. Thank you DS.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 25, 2012, 11:49 AM
Post #58 of 188
(2174 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Quick question. I just flipped the old torque converter over to drain. When I flipped it a small gear fell out. It kind of looks like you drop it in before installation but I have no idea. I ordered a new torque converter so it doesn't really matter but I'm just curious.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 26, 2012, 1:01 PM
Post #59 of 188
(2161 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Here's one I definitely need some help on. I received my master rebuild kit today. When I disassembled all the input clutch plates I hung them up in exact order as they came out. I grabbed the new plates and swapped them with the old one by one and in order. Mine had a 3rd clutch wave plate and also an input wave plate. The kit only came with one wave plate. I called the place and he said there should only be one wave plate, at least that's what his system shows, and he has never had anyone call and ask. Also, the wave plate is a little different. The old only has 6 teeth spread out in sets of 2. Are the teeth being different just some kind of update? Is the "missing" wave plate just some kind of update? My manual says it has all the updates so I figured everything would match. If it is some kind of update, how do I know which wave plate is no longer used.
This is really bugging me. I figured I'd just replace the old in order with the new. Heck, that's why I didn't pull them out of the housing until the kit got here. I am having doubts for the first time on this tranny.
I have a wedding to go to so won't be able to check back in until later on tonight.
I hope we can get this one figured out. If I need to post any pictures of what I'm talking about just let me know.
Thanks!
"Edit"
Just noticed in the manual that at the bottom where it lists each clutch and steel for the input assembly that it lists 655, the Input Clutch Wave Plate, but doesn't show it in the picture. It does list number 645, the 3rd Clutch Wave Plate, and it shows it in the diagram.
Could that mean that the Input Clutch Wave Plate is not used anymore?
(This post was edited by MarineGrunt on Oct 26, 2012, 1:10 PM)
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 26, 2012, 3:14 PM
Post #60 of 188
(2155 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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That is the end of the oil pump shaft. Must had snapped the end off the shaft when the oil pump locked up.
For the input clutch wave plate (655) I believe there is a typo in the picture in your manual. There is a picture at the bottom of this post showing the order for the input clutch pack.
Look at the installation instructions for the third clutch see if they match:
17. Insert the third clutch waved plate (645) into the input shaft and housing assembly (632).
Important: Place the first externally splined plate with its steel side against the waved plate. Place the fiber side of all plates face upward.
18. Insert the third clutch plates assemblies into the input housing. Start by inserting a third clutch plate (646) with external splines. Alternate with the internally splined clutch plates (647).
19. Insert the third clutch backing plate (648) with the word UP facing upward.
20. Insert the retaining ring (649) into the input shaft and housing assembly (632).
Here is the installation procedure for the installation of the input clutch:
21. Insert the input clutch apply plate (654) into the input shaft and housing assembly (632), so that the notched side of the teeth are facing downward against the retaining ring on the third clutch backing plate.
22. Install the input clutch waved plate (655).
23. Install the input clutch plates (656, 657) starting with an input clutch steel plate (657) and alternating with input clutch fiber plate assemblies (656).
24. Insert the input clutch backing plate (658) with the tapered side of the teeth facing upward.
25. Insert the retaining ring (659) in the input shaft and housing assembly (632).
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Oct 26, 2012, 4:00 PM)
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 26, 2012, 4:44 PM
Post #61 of 188
(2143 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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There are so many design changes and improvements to this transmission. Dealer transmission techs usually get update bulletins from the factory. Independent usually get their information from the aftermarket. I honestly don't know the design improvements and changes made on your transmission. Once you fall off the information train, it is really hard to get back on.
Your best bet is to talk to a rebuilder and see if you can milk some information to see why you have a different wave plate design and no input wave plate in your kit. There could be a change in the input housing or maybe there was a change in the number of clutches.
Transmissions are a real pain in the ass because sometimes the factory has design changes between years. Even if they are the same model transmissions you can't go swapping parts from one transmission and expect it to work in another. One example is the oil pump and valve body. In 2003 it changed and can't be used in earlier designs. There was also a second design to the pump in 2002. The change in pump design also caused a change in valve body design. I'm getting a headache thinking about it...LOL.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Oct 26, 2012, 4:48 PM)
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 26, 2012, 5:11 PM
Post #62 of 188
(2136 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Thanks DS....hopefully a local tranny shop won't mind sharing some info. What if I were to just buy another wave plate and rebuild it exactly as it was? Like you said, it's probably an update but I figure it worked okay for 143k the way it was. If I can get another 143k the tranny will outlast the van.
Looks like I'll be drinking even more at this wedding.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 26, 2012, 9:51 PM
Post #64 of 188
(2127 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Thanks DS. You're right about a typo in the picture. I was in a hurry to post before leaving for the wedding so only looked at the diagram I posted. On the next page it gives written instructions plus another diagram. It shows a 3rd clutch wave plate and also an input clutch wave plate. The manual I have is an ATSG but only has updates through 2003 if that makes a difference. Like you said, there are probably othe updates since 2003. Although, you would think a wave plate would be a major part of it. The kit didn't come with any extra clutch plates or anything else. When I called the place I ordered from he said it was a very popular kit and sell thousands of them and has never had anyone ask. He also said that it's mainly mechanics that order and they don't get too many calls from diy's. Then again, he said he was just a parts guy. He also said to see if I could talk to a local tranny shop and see what they have to say. If I can't find anyone to help he said to call back and he would contact a local one from his end.
The new clutch plate is a different design and has more teeth. I'm confident that part is okay because the new one matches up to the clutch plates meaning that the new wave plate has the same number of teeth as the clutch plates. One of my old wave plates was broke widthwise but the other one is fine. Do you think I could reuse one of the old wave plates? I am going to try and find out about the "missing" wave plate first before I do anything though.
Man, things were going so smooth until this. Oh well, just a minor bump in the road. I figured I'd run into a few of them. I've gotta take the good with the bad if I'm going to attempt stuff like this for the first time. If it weren't for situations like this I would'nt learn as much. It makes me dig into things deeper.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 26, 2012, 10:04 PM
Post #65 of 188
(2126 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Hey DS....Check this out.
"4T65E Update 2002-2003 Changes The input and 3rd one way clutches were updated as of July 17th 2002 on some models. Full implementation is scheduled for February 2003. The new one way clutches are a “PAWL” design (commonly refered to as a diode) rather than the sprag design that has been used since the 4T65E was introduced in 1997. In addition, the new pawl design assembly requires new design input clutches. Thenew clutch plates utilize a wave design spline and are thicker than the previous design components. This update was done because of durability problems with the previous design components.The pawl design one way clutches are not currently serviced other than as an assembly. In other words, the pawl components are not available as individual pieces. The clutches must be changed if the pawl design one ways are installed in previous design application. The pawl one way clutch part numbers are 24216516 for the input and 24216517 for the 3rd. The new input clutch part number is 24216502." My 2002 Venture would've landed right in the middle of all of this. What do you think? Looks like the 3rd clutch wave plate is used and the input wave plate is no longer needed? Ahhh....I will now be able to sleep tonight...hopefully. I'm going to inspect them a little closer in the a.m.
*Update*
I measured the old input steels and the new input steels. The old are .080 mm and the new are .100 mm.
With the info above do you think I'm good to go on putting everything back together or should I still wait until Monday and check with a tranny shop?
(This post was edited by MarineGrunt on Oct 27, 2012, 7:13 AM)
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 27, 2012, 9:23 AM
Post #67 of 188
(2107 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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The rebuild kit came with new input clutch plates which are all a little thicker than the old. Sounds like I need a new pawl, whatever the heck that is..lol. Man, my mind is spinning now.
I ordered the manual on cd the same time I ordered the printed manual. I'll take a look at that this afternoon. My wife is making me head to the pumpkin farm with her and the kids.
I think my best bet is to call a tranny shop and offer to pay for some advice and help with this.
*Edit* A quick look at the manual on cd shows that it lists and explains the different updates. Off to the pumpkin farm and I'll go over it when I get back. Thanks DS. You always seem to point me in the right direction. I haven't had to use my brain like this since I took some college courses.
(This post was edited by MarineGrunt on Oct 27, 2012, 9:31 AM)
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 27, 2012, 9:33 AM
Post #68 of 188
(2104 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Ya, definitely check out that updates CD. The PAWL design change is in the one way roller clutches for 3rd and the input clutches. The older ones were the sprag design. There must have been a change in the input clutch splines on the one way clutch, so the input clutches themselves had to be redesigned.
I bet that CD has information on that.
One way clutches:
An updated PAWL input one way clutch:
Have fun at the pumpkin farm 
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Oct 27, 2012, 9:47 AM)
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 27, 2012, 4:45 PM
Post #69 of 188
(2093 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Yep, I have the top one. The update cd explains exactly what you said and also explains the new aftermarket clutch plates. I'll post exactly what it says when I get a chance. It will probably be sometime tomorrow since I have to get the truck fixed first.
It also says that ALL new aftermarket rebuild kits have the updated clutch plate design. Will I more than likelly have to purchase the new PAWL input one way clutch?
The kit didn't come with the new nylon thrust washers. Went to the dealership this morning. $54 later and I have the 4 new $.02 pieces of nylon. Oh well, I expected that.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 28, 2012, 10:01 AM
Post #71 of 188
(2077 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Thanks DS. Below is what the updated manual says about it PAWL and the Sprag. What I don't get is it says that all aftermarket clutch plates have 30 teeth instead of the original 32 but in my kit the clutch plates have 32. It seems the clutch plates and the sprag would be compatible. I measured the thickness of the old to the new and the new are a little thicker, which it explains that in the updated manual. I'm just wondering if the new clutch plates in the kit are made to exclude the original input wave plate but work with the original sprag?
Here's what the update says.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 29, 2012, 1:40 PM
Post #72 of 188
(2068 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Okay, I think I found out what the deal is with the wave plates. The info I posted above is an update that they made in 2003 and has nothing to do with my 2002. I emailed a tranny shop and this is what they said.
"Most rebuild kits dont include wave plates because it is not a part you often need to replace unless the original one is broken. What you were told about new steels having a slight wave to them is incorrect or they are looking at the wrong part and there are always flat steel plates that go between the frictions. The original wave plates are fine to reuse and always go on the bottom of the clutch pack just how it came apart. You are correct on the input frictions- the 2003+ models used a ratcheting sprag/mechanical diode/PAWL design whichever way you want to call it- and the 30 tooth splines. 2002 and earlier models used a sprag element that had input and 3rd contained together and only uses the 32 tooth spline input frictions and not interchangable. All friction companies make early and late design input frictions so there is no reason to have to change the sprag style."
It sounds as if the one wave plate that comes with the kit normally doesn't come in most kits. They must throw an extra one in just in case one is needed. It's a good thing because I did have one that is broke. What do you think? Do you think I'm okay to proceed? I think if the kit would've came with either both new wave plates, or none at all, all of this confusion might've been bypassed. Well, the truck is up and running and it hopefully looks like I can continue with the tranny. I just trust everyone's advice here so I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. Thanks for hanging with me through all of this!
Should I delete my post above just in case someone runs across this thread down the road? I don't want anyone to get confused like I did.
(This post was edited by MarineGrunt on Oct 29, 2012, 1:53 PM)
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 29, 2012, 5:20 PM
Post #73 of 188
(2063 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Sounds good to me. So from reading your post the old input/3rd sprags get reused unless you really wanted to convert to the PAWL one ways. You can use the 32 spline clutch plates and must have the wave plates installed in both input and 3rd clutch packs. Did you check your sprags to be sure they are good? Good that you asked that trans tech and that he/she took the time to answer your questions. That's cool.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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nickwarner
Veteran
/ Moderator
Oct 29, 2012, 5:31 PM
Post #74 of 188
(2057 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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I'd stay with the early style setup you're running and leave the post there. If anyone stumbles upoin it they've already read through the end of the third page and to see where confusion can happen and how it was resolved might be a benefit. Maybe they will gain confidence from it, maybe they will decide they would be in over their head. No matter what it is, if they've taken the time to follow your threads they certainly enjoy reading a lot.
You're doing good. Almost on Easy Street now.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 29, 2012, 6:33 PM
Post #75 of 188
(2052 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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I thought it was very nice of the tranny guy to answer my questions. I offered to pay him for his time via paypal but he refused. (Now don't be getting any ideas! ha ha) Seriously though, you guys have no idea how much I appreciate all the help. I could've never even attempted this rebuild if I didn't have you guys helping me out.
I broke down the sprag and cleaned the heck out of it. The gears look fine and it seemed to work as it should. I did notice in the manual where it says you aren't suppose to reuse the spiral retaining ring so I have to pick up a new one. I'm also going to replace the input clutch piston. I noticed it had a little wear that looks to be from the clutch plates or steels. It's not real bad but can get a reconditioned one for $20 so figure I should. I just don't want anything to come back to bite me in the.... My rebuild kit did come with one wave plate. One of my original wave plates was broke so have to use that one. I think I'll try and order one more wave plate and replace the other while I'm at it. It looks okay, but since the one broke, it worries me the other might not be too far behind. Since the pump broke and wasn't pumping fluid it's hard saying how hot that wave plate got. It's pretty thin so it wouldn't have taken too long to heat up. It might be fine but I'm not taking any chances.
Nick...I'm definitely sticking to the original sprag. I checked the price the other day when I thought I had to replace it and it was around $200. Heck, it wouldn't have cost me that much to have either you or DS rebuild it for me and that's including parts and freight!
Ha ha...I'm just glad you guys enjoy reading!
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