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2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 22, 2012, 4:40 PM
Post #26 of 188
(2885 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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I'd keep that piece to the side and keep going. Amazing things will end up in the valve body area sometimes.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 22, 2012, 4:43 PM
Post #27 of 188
(2881 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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It's 1/16" of an inch thick. I've looked all over the valve body and tried it in every spot possible. It almost looks like there's a small strip of wear lengthwise on one side of it and one lengthwise towards the top on the other side. Well, not wear, it just has a shiny spot about an 1/8" wide on each side. It could have very well had that before it was ever installed and just part of manufacturing. Oh well, I'll just move on. If there's one there's probably another so hopefully I'll be able to see where it came from.
Thanks DS.
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nickwarner
Veteran
/ Moderator
Oct 22, 2012, 4:51 PM
Post #28 of 188
(2877 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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When you get the drums broken down see if any of the clutches or steels are missing a tab.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 22, 2012, 6:56 PM
Post #29 of 188
(2871 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Disregard this post......I got it.
Hopefully it is one of the clutches or steels. It looks like it would be about the same size as one of the tabs on one of the steels.
I'm removing the channel plate now. It has a handful of regular bolts and one torx. That torx is tight! I have one set of torx bits that strip out before the torx bolt itself. It stripped that bit. I used another harder bit and it slipped out. I hate to keep at it cause I am the king of stripped or broken bolts. That's just how my luck goes. If it's gonna happen it's gonna happen to me.
Any recommendations on this one? I guess if anything, and I strip it, I could grind it flat to get the plate off and then remove it with vice grips.
(This post was edited by MarineGrunt on Oct 22, 2012, 7:00 PM)
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nickwarner
Veteran
/ Moderator
Oct 22, 2012, 7:49 PM
Post #30 of 188
(2867 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Its probably loctited in there. Get a new bit and an impact driver. Make sure you are getting the right size. Some sets only go in 5's, which would leave out the common size t27. A 30 wouldn't fit and a 25 would strip out. Impact drivers are at pretty much every parts store. Lisle makes a decent one and I've used it for years on things like that, motorcycle case screws, etc.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 22, 2012, 8:33 PM
Post #31 of 188
(2865 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Thanks Nick, I ended up finding the right size bit and used my battery operated Dewalt impact. It has that vibrated motion to it. That knocked it right loose.
I've just about got it all apart. I haven't taken apart the 2nd clutch housing yet. I did take a peek at the steels and I don't think that one piece is off of one of them. It's a little bigger. I'm done for the night so will finish up and go over everything tomorrow. I did notice that the drive sprocket thrush washer was missing. Besides that, it everything seems to look okay so far. I haven't looked over everything all that close though.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 23, 2012, 8:01 AM
Post #32 of 188
(2860 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Side note and you know I watch all the goings on MG. Those DeWalt Impacts if like one I saw used are incredible! I'm done with this crap but a sucker for cool tools still. Was a plumber working at my home and heard that gawd awful sound of a bit stripping out the head of something but it was the impact sound! Love that thing - big bucks but what's new? I still use the one Nick showed and works but just breaks the #3 Phillips too much?? Not related but door jam strikers, brake drums on some and so forth.
Keep up the good work. I'm learning tons from the whacked issues you are running into. You may be about ready to quit any day job!
Tom
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 23, 2012, 8:24 AM
Post #33 of 188
(2856 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Well, I pretty much have it torn apart. I haven't disassembled the clutch plates and everything yet. I'm not reallly sure what to look for but everything looks pretty good. I know that doesn't mean everything is good though. All the gears are in near perfect shape. I didn't have to use any kind of specialty tool so far. That makes me wonder if the clutch plates are worn? The one thing I did notice is that it seemed to be missing the thrust washer behind the drive sprocket and there seems to be a little wear on the drive sprocket support. It seems like the drive sprocket is rubbing on the drive sprocket support. It seems like the design allows for metal on metal rubbing. I guess this is probably going to get me an obvious answer but is the thrust washer the only thing to prevent metal on metal? It almost seems like something happened to allow the drive sprocket to completely wear down the thrust washer and that's where all the sludge came from. The bearing for the drive sprocket seems to be okay. I'm going to go ahead and replace it though. That is if I can get it out. I have a slide hammer for bearings but I can't seem to find any adapters that will work. I guess a sledge hammer from the other side will do it. I'm kidding. I was just trying to get DS riled up. It also seemed to be missing the 4th clutch shaft thrust washer but there didn't seem to be any wear there. The kits come with all new thrust washers so I guess all I can do is replace everything and keep my fingers crossed. That's the bad thing about not having the knowledge on how everything works. I'm just going to follow the manual to a "T" and I think I'll be okay.
I still can't seem to find where that little tab came from. It's bigger than any finger off of a steel or clutch plate. I just wonder if it fell from somewhere before I even removed the valve body. I really doubt it though. I started to remove the valve body and noticed some tranny fluid was going to run out. I only pulled it back an 1/8" and pushed it back on. I then put a rag underneath to catch the fluid. I removed it and then the tab and a locating dowel was laying on the rag so I'm almost positve it fell from the valve body. Maybe I'll swing by a transmission shop and see if they can tell me anything about it. I know it's hard for you guys to tell from a picture.
I'm going to start getting everything cleaned up. Is it okay to pressure wash the housing? I figure I'll dry it real good when I'm done and then hit it with some parts cleaner and air to make sure I get all the water out. It will have a few days to air dry too. Will that be a problem?
What I really need to get is a parts washer. The money I've spent on spray bottles of parts cleaner would have bought me a couple of them by now.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 23, 2012, 9:45 AM
Post #34 of 188
(2854 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Tom....I've always had Craftsman cordless battery operated drills, impact, etc in the past. They work great for projects around the house. Since Boilermaker work has been so slow over the last few years (too many EPA regulations) I'm in the process of starting a remodeling/home improvement business. I figure I can still hit local Boilermaker jobs when they come about in the spring and fall. Anyways, I decided to go ahead and and pick up some Dewalt tools because they are much more durable and have a lot more power. I ended up going with the new 20V L-ion. The impact is small but it has some great power. It has a brushless motor so it's suppose to last a lot longer too. I guess we will see. I'm 35 now and realized a few years back it's worth spending a little more to get the better tool. If not, you end up buying the same mid grade tool over and over again every few years. I don't always go for the better tool but will if it's something I'm going to use more than once or twice.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 23, 2012, 10:46 AM
Post #35 of 188
(2853 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Well, I found where the tab came from and what probably caused the transmission to fail. I pulled the cover off the pump and noticed ten other metal tabs. The metal tabs just kind of float in inside the pump housing. With the way the pump housing fits around it the metal tabs are held in place. An internal piece of the pump gear broke so nothing was holding the tab in place. I assume this prevented the fluid from being pumped throught the tranny. I posted some pictures if you want to see what I mean. I found a pump assembly on ebay for $35 and it will be here no later than Saturday. That will work out good cause I have to help my stepdad finish his t-case. He has been waiting on parts. When I receive the pump I'm gonna pull the cover off and looking at it very close before I use it.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/88501420@N05/
By the way, how do you post pictures on here? Whenever I click the image tab everything just goes gray.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Oct 23, 2012, 11:34 AM)
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 23, 2012, 11:36 AM
Post #36 of 188
(2847 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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I tried to edit you link to make it show here but it didn't work. If you post you pics to a site like Photobucket or Imageshack, they supply a link to paste into your response that makes the picture appear there.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Oct 23, 2012, 11:38 AM)
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 23, 2012, 12:02 PM
Post #37 of 188
(2840 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Thanks HT. I'll sign up at one of the two sites you mentioned and give it a try.
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nickwarner
Veteran
/ Moderator
Oct 23, 2012, 2:05 PM
Post #38 of 188
(2836 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Your failure and that tab have been confirmed with those pics. The pump failed and wasn't able to keep up the proper amount of flow for the trans to work. Always nice to find a confirmation of failure. But since you already went and got the kit, spring compressor and such may as well get it all done. Pay close attention to the bushings as well, a marginal one will give you trouble later. You need a bushing driver kit to do it properly.
If you don't have a lip seal installer, you can use a feeler gauge. The tool is real cheap though. Make sure to use plenty of lube on everything when installing the lip seals. I use a small paintbrush and gear oil to do that. Also be sure to prime up the transmission pump with ATF and spin it a few times by hand so it doesn't get dry started and make this happen all over again.
To clean the case and hard parts properly trans shops use a hot water washer that works awesome, and for a small fee would wash your parts and case if you brought it to them. Most semi truck repair shops have them too, so that gives you some options about where to look. Your case, drums, planetaries and valve body come out nice, and those paper gaskets on the seperator plate and valve body just fall off. Thats a bonus because you can't use a die grinder to clean that off without damaging the surface.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 23, 2012, 4:56 PM
Post #39 of 188
(2825 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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You're right about it being nice to find a confirmation of failure. Especially because looking at everything else it looks clean and in great shape. I knew there was definitely something inside that broke apart because of the fluid. The fluid was in bright and red before it went out. I know I mentioned this already, but according to the manual, there's a thrust washer missing. I think it may have been ground down to nothing. There is some wear on the drive sprocket support. At least that's what the manual calls it. It may be okay but I think it might be a good idea to replace since I don't know how much was worn down. I don't think too much was because the drive sprocket is fine.
I looked online for a new drive sprocket support. I typed in 4t65e drive sprocket support and I can't seem to find the right one. It brings up the one for the other side. Not the smaller one that I'm looking for. Is there anything else this it is called?
Here's a picture from the front.
Here's a closeup.
Here's the backside.
It seems to be all one piece except for the bearing and possibly a bushing. Since a thrust washer goes inbetween the drive sprocket and the drive sprocket support do you think it even needs replaced?
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nickwarner
Veteran
/ Moderator
Oct 23, 2012, 5:00 PM
Post #40 of 188
(2824 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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See if that discoloration will come off with Scotchbrite. Is the surface smooth or scored?
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 23, 2012, 5:02 PM
Post #41 of 188
(2821 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Sounds like your on a roll. How does the pump housing look? Is it all scared up from the vane coming apart? Pump shaft support screwed up? Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to replace the entire pump.
One thing about transmissions or anything for that matter there is a reason why something happens. That is really one thing that I hated when working on transmissions. You can see the effect, but what is the cause? It is important to determine the cause of failure. Especially on something such as a transmission, because they are a big pain when you have to take it back out of the vehicle and go through it again.
Soak your clutches in ATF. Air check what you can. Don't want to have to take it apart because a seal got rolled. Inspect the drive sprocket support bearing. Used to do them all the time in the 4T60Es.
Make sure those thrust washers your getting are the same thickness as the old ones.
The transmission does have selective washers to control the end play for the input clutch housing and differential carrier. Excessive end play will cause clunking and too little will cause binding. This are the tools mentioned earlier that is used to preload the assembly. I know it sound meticulous and most guys just slap the stuff together, but when the end play is within specifications the transmission shifts and feels right. It also lets you know that things are put together correctly. You need quite of few special tools to check end play for the input clutch housing and diff, and they are expensive. Your best bet is to ask your transmission friend if he/she can verify end play.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 23, 2012, 5:05 PM
Post #42 of 188
(2820 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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I'd replace the drive support. There should be bolts behind the front seal, so you can remove the support.
Kind of strange the nylon washer is gone. Is it stuck to the back of the drive sprocket?
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 23, 2012, 6:15 PM
Post #43 of 188
(2810 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Nick.....Some of the discoloration will come off but it has a bunch of scores. The scores aren't very deep though.
DS.......The pump housing looks okay. The only thing I could notice was the gear or finger that had broke off. I went ahead and found the whole pump on ebay. Found a used one for $35. Hey, I like meticulous. I'd rather hear it a hundred times than not at all. Especially since I've never seen the inside of a tranny before, let alone touch one.
I saw a loading tool on ebay for around $50. Sounds like that one there is an absolute must and it's not something I can make. I'm gonna head over and get it now.
No nylon washer. The manual says there should be a thrust washer there but there wasn't.
The picture shows the last thing I pulled out of it. There wasn't anything else between them.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 23, 2012, 6:32 PM
Post #44 of 188
(2809 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Very strange. It has to be there or as you noticed the drive sprocket will contact the drive support. Was the other washer on the front of the drive chain sprocket when you removed the channel plate? Maybe since the turbine shaft is chucking back and forth without the washer in place, so was the oil pump drive shaft since it goes through the middle of it.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 23, 2012, 6:48 PM
Post #45 of 188
(2806 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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The only one missing was 517.
(This post was edited by MarineGrunt on Oct 23, 2012, 6:52 PM)
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 23, 2012, 6:51 PM
Post #46 of 188
(2804 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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My bad, 505 is not missing. I'm going to edit that in the post above. I'm positive 517 was missing though.
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nickwarner
Veteran
/ Moderator
Oct 23, 2012, 6:55 PM
Post #47 of 188
(2802 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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If its scored up, toss it out. If you're running a used pump, make sure you take it apart when you get it and inspect it. The vanes, housing, valving and all must be good. Just go ahead and install a new pump bushing in it. No sense in reusing it. If you find some worn vanes, individual wear items or just need the bushing and its not in your kit, your local trans shops should have them on hand and they aren't very pricey things.
With the missing thrust washer allowing that much movement, I'm thinking thats what probably caused the pump to break like it did. Such a small cheap little thing wrecks the whole works on you.
As you go further in the inspection of all the parts, remember if its questionable at all for reuse, give it the float test.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 23, 2012, 6:57 PM
Post #48 of 188
(2802 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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I'm going to replace the drive sprocket support as you recommended. The manual doesn't explain all that well on how to remove it. It does show a picture of the bolts you're talking about DS. Do you mind listing the order of what needs to be removed. On the backside where the torque converter goes, do I have to remove anything there? Does the needle bearing come out by first and by itself?
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 23, 2012, 6:58 PM
Post #49 of 188
(2802 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Ya, that washer needs to be there on the forth drive shaft. Did this have problems in overdrive? I don't have an answer why they are missing.
Take the pump seal out in the bellhousing. 4 torx hold the drive support to the case. The new drive support comes with a bearing and bushing. I wouldn't use the old one.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Oct 23, 2012, 7:01 PM)
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Oct 23, 2012, 7:16 PM
Post #50 of 188
(2797 views)
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Re: 2002 Venture 3.4 Front Wheel Drive Tranny Removal
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Thanks DS. I started pulling the pump seal but seemed like I was going to jack the seal up so stopped and figured I'd better ask before I screwed something up.
About a week or so before the tranny complete went out it no longer shifted into overdrive.
When I noticed that the pump was broke, and with the washer missing, I kind of figure that the washer was ground away due to it not being lubricated. There's another nylon washer that is worn pretty good and is chipped. Besides the pump, nylon washer, and the drive sprocket support, everything looks to be in great shape. The bands seem to have plenty of plenty of friction plate(?) on them, no chips out of any gears at all from what I can tell, and the inside seems to be pretty clean. I can see some sludge in some spots but nothing crazy. Hopefully after the rebuild it's like a new transmission. That's if I get it all back together. 
I should be okay. I labeled and numbered almost everything and have all the parts laid out in order.
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