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'95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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wa4chq
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Feb 19, 2010, 1:10 PM
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'95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Hello Tom and rest of the group--
I went ahead and removed the plug from the LPCO and jumped the plug. KOEO, I checked for 12v at the compressor end....nothing....put the plug back in the compressor and for the heck of it, tapped on the plate...nothing.
I found the relays (there are two side-by-side on the firewall on the passenger side.) The outboard on has a gray base and the inboard one has a brown base.
Do you think that the problem now lies with a bad relay?
Thanks for all your help--
Neil
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Tom Greenleaf
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Feb 19, 2010, 3:12 PM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Yes! Relays are trouble spots as said.
Not certain but bet the gray base is the relay for A/C. Look for wire colors that match LPCO or wires at the plug to clutch and that's the very likely one. Aftermarket relays frequently will fit any same spade pattern and OE (original equipment) ones will do some trick so they don't interchange on some Fords. It's the skirt on the thing that disallows just anyone to swap as some will and show the exact same part # on them. Don't swap these as it would disable something needed no doubt.
If you have relay out in hand but still plugged in, give it that love tap I spoke of earlier. If that works you'll want a new one and if not it's inconclusive. Love tap - don't smash it - LOL,
T
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wa4chq
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Feb 19, 2010, 4:33 PM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Hey Tom--
I completely forgot tapping the relay to see if it was stuck....hey, next time I have this problem I'll remember!
Luckily we have a Napa in town, Autozone about 3/4hr away...Looking at both sites, Napa right now, they show an A/C compressor relay and an A/C compressor cut-off relay...the spade pattern is the same... Another head scratcher for me....
Thanks and have a great weekend.
Neil
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Tom Greenleaf
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Feb 19, 2010, 8:19 PM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Neil,
The skirt on the Echlin AR240 will fill all of the same patterned relays. More have gone bad on me by surprise for fuel pumps and this one works. Keep one in the glove box as twice on one of my own it wouldn't prime fuel and this was it! Same one fits A/C - same amps rating and spade pattern. If local to you that's cheap and will fit older Fords as well. Note skirt is generic without an indexing bump of any particular color..........
    
Qty  A/C Comp Cut-Off Relay Product Line: Echlin Ignition Part Number: ECH AR240 Price: Price
Unit
:
:
10.99
Each
Availability: Available Now Features & Benefits N.O. Terminals 3-4 At 35 Amp; N.C. Terminals 3-5 At 20 Amp; Coil Terminals 1-2; NAPA Echlin Products Meet Or Exceed Original Equipment Specifications. All Products Are Top-Of-The-Line Quality, & 100% Tested & Inspected In An Environment That Is IS09000 Compliant. Warranty Limited 12 Months Attributes # Relay Terminals : 5
Have a good weekend as well,
T
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wa4chq
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Feb 20, 2010, 10:54 AM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Hey Tom-
I picked up the relay this morning. I verified that I still had 12v to the LPCO switch and put in the jumper. I confirmed that the fan was plugged in. I removed and replaced the relay (inboard) and then pulled the plug from the compressor clutch. With koeo and a/c button in I checked for 12v at the comp. plug....nothing. So I replaced the old relay on the inboard side and pulled and replaced the outboard relay. Again, nothing.
Maybe when the clutch seized up and I smelled the electrical smell and saw a little smoke, I fried the wiring at the clutch.... anyway if we can't working, it is not the end of the world. You've been very patient and helpful with me and this a/c problem. I've learned a lot.
All the best,
Neil
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Hammer Time
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Feb 20, 2010, 12:12 PM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Let me see if I can help here
This circuit uses 2 relays
The A/C relay gets power from both the A/C fuse in the engine compartment and the rear wiper fuse in the instrument panel. It is open at rest and closed when energized.
The other relay is the Wide Open Throttle relay which gets power from the A/C relay and the rear wiper fuse. It is closed at rest and open when energized to shut the compressor off under heavy throttle.
Make sure you have all your power supplies at those relays with the A/C on.
You also have 2 switches that house 3 circuits. They all have to have continuity through them.
At the high pressure switch, jump out the brown with black/dk green and the white with dk green.
Jump the 2 wires together on the cycling switch too. That effectively eliminates all switches for testing.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Feb 20, 2010, 12:15 PM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Arggh! OK: You've ruled that much out. If there isn't a blown fuse feeding the relay or (??) fusible link which I don't think is used here then there must be a break in wire some place - most likely near where things would be to swap out the compressor.
Hey - if there was no compressor installed at all with all this jumping switch and relay known (dear goodness hope a defect doesn't add to this!) the plug just hanging for compressor's clutch would be getting power! There's a chance if this uses a superheat switch on back of compressor that it isn't plugged in but I didn't think this did that trick. If you see any wire unplugged you should wonder why.
A correct used compressor should have had that switch if it used one at all. New and or remanufactured you would just get the new part with a plug there and swap from old compressor if used. Can't say if that's in the cards at all with this one??
I realize the old compressor sort of messed up bad but electrically (short of burned parts from heat) the wiring should be all fused and not burn out.
Just looked at an old Ford product that uses this relay. Black wire with yellow tracer is/was universally used from LPCO to the clutch via a relay just like the AR240 (think that was the #) Napa one would work.
What do you want to do now that you know electrically this can't work? You paid to swap this and it could go back or we need to get even more involved. By all means - double check all fuses underhood or inside for a dead one! Again if you already have.
Damn - this vehicle could have a couple options on what was done with A/C when new which screws me up without being there.
Don't have the big buck software but some of the guys do here. Would like to know the wire color of your LPCO (the dead one with it unplugged) and it's routing - exactly all the way to compressor.
Let me know what you want to do and will move from that,
T
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Tom Greenleaf
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Feb 20, 2010, 12:20 PM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Thanks Hammer for taking a peek here. You posted while I was out looking for wire colors before posting! Any info awesome. I do know there were some odd ducks - like with WOT cut outs not on all of them for some fool reason??
T
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wa4chq
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Feb 20, 2010, 5:03 PM
Post #9 of 27
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Hello Hammer and Tom-
Again thanks Tom and Hammer, thanks for jumping in and offering some help with this A/C issue of mine. I will go over what you posted. Unfortuanatly, I don't have access to any books pertaining to the Escort. Tom has giving me some places to look. (the autozone site had been very helpful) IE: when you guys mention a part, I would like to find it so I don't have to keep asking 'where should I find it on the car'.... At this point, I am going to assume that the used compressor works. Something must have happened when the clutch seized up. (I wonder what would happen if I put 12v directly from the battery to the compressor) Tom has helped me trace 12v to the LPCO switch. I am not getting anything to the compressor. You have given me some areas to check. That brings me back to wishing I had some reference book handy so I could follow along with the troubleshooting advice you both give. So bear with me while I reread everything again. I do have some questions.
Thanks a lot you guys....have a great evening.
Neil
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Hammer Time
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Feb 20, 2010, 5:15 PM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Just test the things I've already given you and we'll see where that takes us.
The 2 relays are mounted on the firewall in the right rear of the engine compartment. The WOT relay is the one on the driver's side of the two.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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wa4chq
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Feb 20, 2010, 6:05 PM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Hey Hammer--
Ok, in front of the passenger side on the firewall are two relays. The outboard one is the a/c relay and the inboard is the WOT relay.
"At the high pressure switch, jump out the brown with black/dk green and the white with dk green."
Where should I look for the high pressure switch?
"Jump the 2 wires together on the cycling switch too."
Where would I find the cycling switch?
Thanks for the help.
Neil
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Hammer Time
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Feb 20, 2010, 6:10 PM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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The cycling switch will be on the accumulator. The high pressure will be in the high pressure side somewhere which starts at the compressor, then goes to the condenser and on to the evaporator
If you end up getting power after jumping out the switches, plug them back in one at a time to see which one isn't working.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Feb 20, 2010, 6:15 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Feb 20, 2010, 6:30 PM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Again - thanks Hammer. This thread started with...........
http://autoforums.carjunky.com/...x._fan_issue_P67391/
Which was getting so long it was hard to recall everything already discussed. Puter just threw a tizzy for a while and had to retrieve it from the roof - didn't think it would fly that far!
Neil - somewhere here you asked how to jump clutch directly and that can be done but I don't want to suggest which wire as I'd guess wrong so don't until if ever I can be sure on that. Just an ohm test on the terminals of an A/C clutch should show 3.5-4.0 Ohms is within most specs. It that reads so, it should be a good clutch and able to create its magnetic magic.
Hang in there,
T
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wa4chq
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Feb 20, 2010, 7:31 PM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Hey Tom and Hammer--
OK, so the the cycling switch is the LPCO. I'm gonna guess that the high pressure switch looks like the LPCO.... I found pictures of the evaporator and the condenser on the Autozone site. They don't show locations. The condenser looks like it the size of the radiator so maybe that is where it is located. Earlier this morning when working on the car, I tried to find the evaporator but but it is really cluttered in this car. I will follow the hoses from the compressor.
Tom, to answer your question about where I want to go....I feel that I'd like to figure out why I'm not getting power to the compressor. I'm starting to feel that the part they put in is good (maybe the clutch plate is not gapped right, but I gotta believe that if it were, the thing would work). So before I take it back to them, I'd like to rule out anything in between. I've dealt with this shop before, but to be honest with you, I feel better going about like we are here. I had an Izuzu diesel pickup years ago that blew a fuseable link on the way home. It was late and I really didn't know at the time how to solve the problem. Long story short, I called this same outfit to come and take it to the shop and repair the problem. They had it for about four days and they said that they found the problem fuse, but they still couldn't start the truck! I got a little ticked and had it towed back to the marina where I work. I hopped in the truck and it started right up. Now I'm not saying that my sitting in the seat of the truck did the trick, but pressing in the clutch while turning the key over helps....I feel I am pretty handy with tools, but I don't have some of the gear it takes for certain repairs. The compressor looked simple to remove but messing with the freon etc. I just don't have the gear for it. If you guys don't mind my questions, I'd like to continue with the troubleshooting.
thanks for everything...
Neil
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Feb 21, 2010, 6:06 AM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Neil - Little background and refresh on this:
The first issue is that current isn't getting to clutch. We still have no clue if the system works, has right charge, compressor is any good - lots more. This is a set of flat tires so it needs be first in pecking order to even bother with much else.
Just know that MVAC (Motor Vehicle A/C) is near a whole trade by itself - never mind the rest of the car! It's different in the ways it must accommodate such a wide variety of conditions unlike home A/C. Engine doesn't stay at the same speed which is the compressing force so that's a hurdle alone.
We (I speak for myself but expect true for all regulars here) do this stuff for 'gratis' because we want to, to see problems solved, help if we can via forum vs being there sharing what has to be hundreds of years of experience combined with most/many still at it - I'm retired. It's still a vendetta to win at the game and that's the pay dirt.
The car: 1995 Ford Escort. A couple snags are that, that was the last year before OBDII mandated on board computer controls, and that Ford and Mazda MAY have each input on this car. In some older Escorts and Tracers Mazda was the builder of much of them. In some parts hunting I noticed that some of these or lots of these were listed as with "Dealer Installed A/C" which was an import thing once and the cars were ready for the install. Plain dunno with this one. Could break down to the date it was built.
It's in its VIN number what and where was when new.
For you, I suggest getting the www.AllData.com (that should get you there) manual which will include wiring by color of wire and hopefully some diagnostic techniques. It's about $27.50 for a year's use download for ONE vehicle. Pretty sure with $ back if not to your liking.
Hammer pointed out that there's more than one relay involved and a way to test the fail-safes like the High Pressure Cut Out as said earlier in prior thread is probably three wires and in smaller line of the two gas lines to and from compressor to condenser which is located directly in front of radiator well skirted so airflow goes thru it well. From the grille it looks like the radiator but isn't - that's the condenser. The idea of high pressure cut outs is to prevent the gas from being expelled via a blow out device at pressures too high for the system. Can prevent damage if it shut down before things break also.
WOT (= Wide Open Throttle and will apply to heavy loads/demands on engine as well) and is a way to cut off compressor (an energy hog) when full engine power is requested. Not all vehicles use those. Sub-note.... I own two of the same vehicle (Ford products) and one has it one doesn't! Go figure? That broke such that compressor never engaged and I by-passed that system as it was buried in tons of wires well hidden in those plastic wire protectors and went out of sight and back up elsewhere with no continuity. If I want the extra power - shut the A/C off!
In short if I can do that - the issue is where does the power stop and why. It makes it to LPCO but not on to clutch? As said and you can see there can be several reasons to interrupt that flow and short of an accident should be a fuse, pinched wire, burnt wire, relay, WOT system, High pressure situation (misread as you can't have high pressures without compressor working.)
Clutch gap is not the issue for now - let that go as it may work as is or the adjustment not that hard - not sure yet. If way too huge a gap it would still get the power to try and respond to the tap trick.
Let's roll,
T
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wa4chq
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Feb 21, 2010, 6:49 AM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Good Morning Tom, Hammer--
I will taking the car this morning to the marina where I usually do the work on my car. (Tom-Hammer, thanks for the latest info esp. the link to Alldata.com...will check into it)
First I will see if I am getting 3.5 - 4 ohms at the compressor terminals.
I'll jump the accumulator switch
Jump the HPCO switch (brown w/black-darkgreen to the white w/dk-green)
Recheck to see if there are blown fuses.
Check to see if relays - a/c relay and WOT relay are getting juice.
Hammer, you mentioned:
If you end up getting power after jumping out the switches, plug them back in one at a time to see which one isn't working.
When I'm doing these tests on the relays, the key is on, engine off. To check to see which switch is faulty (assuming now I find power is getting to the relays) plug one in at a time, keeping the other jumped and turn the engine on?
Have a good morning...
Neil
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Tom Greenleaf
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Feb 21, 2010, 7:10 AM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Note for when engine running:
If you are forcing/jumping anything that could allow compressor to engage AND it's colder out (40s - 50sF) then be prepared to shut down as at low temps liquid refrigerant could return to compressor - not good! We don't know how much "freon" (ok slang for named brand R-12 refrigerant gas not used in this car) and if way overcharged which we don't know could mess things up.
There's a lot we/I don't know about exactly what was done with the compressor swap not related IMO to the electrics for now,
T
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wa4chq
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Feb 21, 2010, 7:26 AM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Hey Tom,
I remember you telling me that earlier....that is why I was wondering if the engine should be on....if so, I don't want to run it very long with switches jumped.
Thanks for the quick reply....
Now for coffee, gather my notes and over to the marina.....
Have a good one...
Neil
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Hammer Time
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Feb 21, 2010, 7:39 AM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Your test should all be done with the engine running and the A/C on. The PCM has the final word on whether to turn the A/C on or not and it knows when the engine isn't running and some vehicles won't turn the A/C on with the engine off.
Your only concern about having the switches jumped is if the compressor actually starts running. You need to make sure you have sufficient refrigerant before running that too long with the cycling switch jumped out. That's why the switch is there in the first place.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Feb 21, 2010, 7:41 AM)
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wa4chq
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Feb 21, 2010, 1:12 PM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Hey Tom and Hammer-
Here is what I did and what I found. I first checked the ohms on the compressor terminals and they read about 4 ohms. Then I jumped the LPCO switch. Then I traced the HPCO and found it on the drivers side just below and a little towards center of the headlight. I pulled the plug, verified the wire colors and jumped. Went to the relays and pulled both of them. With the key on, I got current to both relays. I double checked the fuses and all ok. I made sure the compressor was plugged in and then I pulled the jumpers from the HPCO switch, plugged it back in and then started the engine. A buddy of mine was at the marina, so he was my eyes. I switched the a/c to on I heard a single click and noticed the engine pulling down a bit. Gary verified that the clutch had indeed engaged and was spinning. I cut everything off and removed the jumper from the LPCO switch and plugged it in. Again, Gary watching as I turn the engine on and switch the A/C to on and no click, no compressor spin. I pulled the LPCO plug and jumped it again, and with engine on and a/c switch on, I heard the click, the engine pull down and Gary verified that she was spinning.
So, it looks like the LPCO is bad? If thats the case, will removing it mean I'll loose the refrigerant?
Boy, I don't know what I would have done if it were the help from you guys....thanks for the patience and info.
Neil
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Hammer Time
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Feb 21, 2010, 1:19 PM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Everything we told you was based on the assumption that the system had refrigerant in it. I suggest you check that first with professional pressure gauges
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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wa4chq
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Feb 21, 2010, 1:47 PM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Hey Hammer-
The auto repair shop charged me for compressor, recharging the system, some hoses, etc. So unless it leaked out.....
Let me ask you this. If they told me the ac wouldn't work without the fan, and knowing now that the lpco switch wasn't working but we now know that the compressor works with the lpco jumped.....could they have charged the system? Does that make sense? In other words if the compressor wasn't kicking in at their shop could they have charged the system?
Thanks
Neil
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Hammer Time
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Feb 21, 2010, 1:51 PM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Yes, they could have charged it with the engine off but you don't want to run it with that switch jumped out until you know what the pressures are. If you want to take a chance with a new switch, you'll find out that way but i suggest using gauges so you know what is going on in there. Also, if the fan isn't working, you don't want the compressor running.
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wa4chq
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Feb 21, 2010, 2:21 PM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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Hey Hammer-
I really don't think that fan has worked for years....I never recall it running. I know some cars, the fan will continue to run after you've stopped the car....This hasn't done that for years....but if the car was stationary, I usually cut the a/c off.....
Neil
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Hammer Time
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Feb 21, 2010, 2:25 PM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue-- getting close
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If you run that compressor without a fan, you'll be buying another compressor and whatever else it takes with it.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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