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'95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue
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wa4chq
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Feb 16, 2010, 4:28 AM
Post #1 of 15
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'95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue
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Hi all--
I have a '95 Ford Escort 1.9L wagon. I've had her for over seven years. Up until a few weeks ago the a/c worked fine and only once or twice when I first bought the car, I noticed the aux. fan actually running. My problem with the compressor-clutch noise started after Hurricane Isabell and me driving through very deep water. The noise got worse over the years but I still had a/c. About a month ago I noticed an electrical smell and after letting the car sit for a while, I loosened the belt and check the clutch on the front of the compressor....it was very sloppy! I disconnect the wire harness to the compressor. Then a week after it, the car became very hard to start. The engine was very slow turning over. I was near an auto repair shop and had them replace the compressor. The cause for the hard starting was the clutch / compressor had welded itself due to excess heat.... They replaced the compressor with a used one and the mechanic told me that the aux. fan didn't come on so my a/c wouldn't work. Did I want it replaced? I told him the a/c worked without the fan and I didn't want it replaced. I picked up the car and noticed that when I turned the a/c on I didn't get the feeling of the engine rpm's reducing under the load of the compressor like it did before taking it to the shop. Ever since owning the car it did that when I put the a/c on. I got under the car and remove the covers hiding the compressor and noticed the clutch not spinning with the a/c on. I also noticed the 40a fuse for the aux. fan was blown and putting jumpers directly to the fan and dc, the fan worked. I replaced the fuse. Before I take it back to be fixed, I just want to make sure of a few things.
My questions are:
--Should I notice the rpms drop when the a/c is turned on? (my guess is yes just because that's what it has always done)
--Is the aux. fan only for stop and go or really hot weather to give extra air flow to the condenser but has nothing to do with making the a/c work? (my guess is yes, again because it worked before without the fan)
--When I noticed the electrical smell, would that have been from the compressor/clutch? I didn't do a voltage test on the electrical harness to the compressor. Should I?
--Should I see the clutch spinning with the a/c on? (my guess is yes, but I don't really know because I had never really looked at it when it was working)
--Should I stop using this mechanic?
Thanks for any help.
Neil
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Feb 16, 2010, 6:05 AM
Post #2 of 15
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue
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Neil,
Used is used and if the shot chose used they should deal with where they got the part. If you did, you deal with it.
The smell if welded up, heat and all that certainly could be from failed clutch bearing and if bad enough to wobble there are plastic items that would smell.
Now that the compressor doesn't engage (evidenced by outer plate spinning at belt speed) AND fan not working I'd suspect an A/C relay not engaging clutch. I think this is a cycling system so clutch would come on and off unless VERY warm and would shut down if high pressure got too high but usually would try again in a couple minutes.
I'm not sure if the 95 Escort is mostly a Mazda or Mostly Ford. They did get involved with each other a lot in the 90s.
In that you paid (is that right?) for the work it should go back. Compressor would work without aux fan (if only aux not primary) but would impair cooling especially in extremes or low speed driving.
It needs to be tested for where current (voltage) is flowing and stops. If refrigerant charge is inadequate it's not going to kick on and if way too much it would stall, choke compressor and not cool well or damage could result.
If there's pressure in the system it should kick on even if not cool. You usually would notice especially in an Escort that compressor has engaged by sound if keen to that or observation directly. RPMs would normally be compensated by the computer sensing the extra load so RPMs don't necessarily drop.
Again - If this was a paid job it should go back. We can go further if for some reason the shop takes no responsibility for a failed part if that's part of the trouble. The blown fuse in an "I don't know why for now"
T
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wa4chq
User
Feb 16, 2010, 6:28 AM
Post #3 of 15
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue
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Hi Tom and thanks for the speedy reply. The shop gave me a choice with used compressor or new and I chose used.
>>>>>>Now that the compressor doesn't engage (evidenced by outer plate spinning at belt speed)
I'm not sure I understand...the outer plate wasn't spinning when I had the a/c on. Although thinking about it you would think something is spinning because its all run off the same belt. What I was looking at was the front of the compressor. The 'pulley' had what looks like there weights on the front. With engine off, I could spin it by hand. With engine on and a/c switch on I didn't notice the 'pulley' spinning. Let me get under the car and look at it again......the more I think about it the more cornfused I get!
I'll check and post this afternoon....
Thanks again
Neil
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Feb 16, 2010, 10:11 AM
Post #4 of 15
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue
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OK: That compressor pulley (I let's use correct terms now) is the clutch which when compressor is disengaged is just a pulley and when engaged is turning the compressor doing it's thing and the bearing inside that clutch is no longer involved. The clutch action is on or off not like a standard shift but same idea. There's a gap that if too far over .020 +/- may not be able to electromagnetically pull in to engage. Compressors in CCOT (clutch cycling orifice tube) systems will cycle on and off as needed to provide appropriate amounts of compressed refrigerant.
If it is a CCOT system it will have a low pressure cut out switch which is an indicating/interrupting switch to shut compressor off when pressure is too low either because it's done enough, or it's way to cold to operate.
I wish I could say definitely if this was a CCOT system or with expansion valve?? No matter - try following the larger hose from the compressor back and there would be an accumulator (silver or black painted) rounded canister of a thing with like a spark plug with two wires to it is common to Fords. All that is, is a pressure switch and one side if unplugged should have voltage when A/C is requested. Would like to know that much as if no current then a relay or some other fault is a problem. System even empty of refrigerant and no pressure would still have current there.
DO NOT TOUCH ANY SWITCH ON THE SMALLER LINES OR WHAT IS CALLED THE HIGH SIDE!
If you want to do some cheap and simple tests yourself it's up to you but since shop put this in I maintain they should as if I was the shop I would question you messing with my work!
1. 12v or so current should be making it to the LPCO (low pressure cut out) switch and if so and warm enough on to the compressor's clutch thru a relay.
2. If current makes it to clutch and it doesn't engage you can either tap on that outer plate AYOR (if running) or just put key to "run" position and ask for A/C and bump it - it may snap to engage even with engine off if you have key in run position.
If that works the gap is too large for it to pull in. Take a common business card, fold it in half with a firm crease (nice high tech tool!) and it should be real tight to get into the gap of the clutch with everything off. When at about .020 the unfolded card would be snug but go in with no problem.
* Those two tests would be cheap info for now. If you don't have one, do use an LED test light (5 bucks at Walmart) which is handy for testing for DC current and low draw and less likely (watch out now) to blow the vehicle's computer if you mess with the wrong stuff!
* After that if all checks out I'll need a static pressure at a minimum which will begin requiring tools, gauges, and things you may not want to own but are rent-able - free at some parts outlets if we need to go there.
Let me know what you decide and how much I just confused you
T
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wa4chq
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Feb 16, 2010, 11:26 AM
Post #5 of 15
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue
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Hi Tom--
Just got home and finished reading your message. One thing you mentioned and I hadn't considered was:
"If it is a CCOT system it will have a low pressure cut out switch which is an indicating/interrupting switch to shut compressor off when pressure is too low either because it's done enough, or it's way to cold to operate."
We have been have temps down around freezing. If it gets to the low forties we are taking sweaters off. And then you also mentioned:
"12v or so current should be making it to the LPCO (low pressure cut out) switch and if so and warm enough on to the compressor's clutch thru a relay."
I tried taking a reading off the cable going to the compressor but reading what you say, I will start looking for the LPCO and checking for current there. I'd like to at least verify that power is getting to that. Assuming I do have power there then it's possible there is nothing wrong with the a/c. When I take it back to the shop, and they say it's fixed how can I verify that it works?
Thanks
Neil
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Feb 16, 2010, 12:42 PM
Post #6 of 15
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue
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Except for the blown fuse you found it's too cold now to verify how well it could cool if at all. That's not the point right now as it should be electrically correct as it was before as that wasn't the problem to begin with.
Perhaps more than you wanted to know: The reason compressor won't engage is there is a direct correlation of pressure and temp which also makes the refrigerant (134a was OE) a liquid or a gas. Things like the compressor must shut down if a liquid is subject to be in the return line or it would cause hydraulic lock and stall the compressor - even possible to destroy it.
More boring stuff: At 40F the pressure of 134a just in the system would be about 35.1 PSI - just barely the point where compressor would be allowed to engage!
So: With electrics all with good fuses I would expect it would be off normally while watching. But! Engine heat when you shut down a warmed up engine or even just sitting there long enough will blow warm air at lines and things and pressure would go up and at temps like 20F to 40F it would click on but not for long. Most fans detect compressor is engaged to operate or at least requested. Can't say for sure with each design.
There's a chart in front of me I can't post so easily. Refrigerant is a liquid or gas depending on pressure. In Fahrenheight the exact cross mark is at 68F the pressure will be 68 PSI! It deviates away from that exact cross point. The compressor will build up high pressures making the refrigerant condense to a liquid via the condenser - at least one part is named for what it's doing! That means now liquid moves along to be expanded or evaporated and not unlike sweat on your skin things that evaporate take heat with them or in lay speak - make coolness. That's as basic as I can do to explain what is happening as it's not flaming magic but a science.
Again 40F is too cold for more than electrical testing for now. Just to self inform more look at the top of this section for 'CHARGING PROCEDURES" which is informative as to what's happening at what pressures and scary as to what you need to know to do it right if you are charging - don't right now! Takes equipment that measures weight of amont or you can destroy it. Warmer weather and knowlege of weight from known vacuum (empty) is the best way as you can test it too for performance.
If shop had a clue and the equipment this may be fine. I live in cold country so know what you are dealing with. Can heat my shop to 100F but cement floor stays cold making testing performance this time of year a guess.
There are ways to force it to work now but it's not a good idea till it's warmer or there's risks involved. For now, just check clutch gap, fuses and don't expect current to make it to compressor just yet.
Here's the feeler gauge way to check clutch gap but the biz card is really close enough!
Those nubs are typical for an outer plate and vary car to car but they are holding the clutch OFF as a default.
May need to wait (hopefully it will warm up soon) to check more,
T
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wa4chq
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Feb 17, 2010, 5:35 AM
Post #7 of 15
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue
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Hi Tom,
Again thanks for the information re: my a/c problem. This morning I will check for the voltage to the pressure switch. But I still am a little confused about the fan issue. I don't recall the aux. fan running except for the few times after buying the car and it gets HOT here in SE Virginia, and the a/c worked fine. You had mentioned that the fan didn't have to work for the a/c to run.
"Now that the compressor doesn't engage (evidenced by outer plate spinning at belt speed) AND fan not working I'd suspect an A/C relay not engaging the clutch."
Do you mean that if the fan functions like its supposed to, it is controlled by the current going to the pressure switch, which goes to the relay for the clutch?
"Most fans detect compressor is engaged to operate or at least requested. Can't say for sure with each design."
The second quote I take to mean that if the fuse hadn't blown, the fan would come on during stop and go traffic or when temps. are above a certain point and help cool the condenser.
I went to the local library and checked to see if they had a copy of Chiltons, which they had lots but none for US cars of my year! I hope you don't mind my questions... ie: where would I locate the a/c relay?
Thanks
Neil
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Feb 17, 2010, 6:41 AM
Post #8 of 15
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue
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Most fans will come on when power is sent to relay at least or possibly the LPCO switch and almost all when compressor recieves voltage to engage so trace the voltage with a test light. Relays can fail like a light bulb without provocation - sometimes will respond with a love tap with a screwdriver plastic handle.
Did find this car uses an orifice tube (O tube) suggesting it is the CCOT system with accumulator and LPCO (low pressure cut out) switch. These acronyms will drive you nuts but are handy. The TWO wire switch for low pressure would have power to one side with A/C request and allow power to go thru it if pressure is in range. Watch out for three wire items as it may involve the computer and they need specific ways to test or risk blowing computer!
Typical low pressure switch looks similar to this.......
 It's shown here as #2 with arrow - that one on the accumulator - not all are on the accumulator but are like a spark plug looking thing.
I like the regular test light to follow where current is and isn't which generically looks like this....
Good for checking fuses and would light the handle when voltage present with a scratch awl probe end. Know what your testing!
If you go to a library again they may have better stuff to look at thru www.AllData.com available. I haven't cared for Chiltons but haven't seen what you found.
See what can you find and test for power. Again, if not sure don't,
T
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wa4chq
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Feb 17, 2010, 11:56 AM
Post #9 of 15
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue
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Hi again, Tom--
I found the LPCO switch and pulled it off the sensor. With my key on and the a/c button on I read 12v. I also checked the gap on the compressor plate. I had a business card and folded it in half and it went in without any effort, in fact it felt pretty loose. Hopefully the card I was using was to specs. ! I tried tapping on the front of the plate but nothing happened. Could this be because of not getting voltage to it? I pulled the plug from the compressor and couldn't get a reading. Is the relay between the LPCO and the compressor? Could this be the culprit?
thanks,
Neil
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Feb 17, 2010, 3:07 PM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue
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">> Could this be because of not getting voltage to it? I pulled the plug from the compressor and couldn't get a reading. Is the relay between the LPCO and the compressor? Could this be the culprit? <<" YES. I'm near certain the LPCO routes thru relay for a stronger amp supply to compressor's clutch as it take more power to pull in. If relay was working or a fuse ?? then power would have made it to compressor and the tap would have pulled it in even if way to large a gap.
I'm sure the card you used was adequate. Some won't go in at all folded - right now that's a future issue - let's find the break in the power. There's a chance that with KOEO (key on engine off) that power won't go on to compressor in this model/design - most would.
With that - try checking for voltage again with engine running and the plug unplugged and out of harms way for testing. It then you find current then you need to tap compressor's outer plate (CAREFULLY) with rubber or wood in such a manner that you don't get messed up with moving parts as when and or if it engages those nubs will spin.
AGAIN! CARE IN HOW YOU MIGHT TAP AND WITH WHAT - SOFT WOOD, RUBBER HAMMER IN SUCH A WAY THAT IF IT ENGAGES IT WON'T KICK BACK AT YOU! THINK HARD AS DOING THAT WRONG COULD HURT YOU OR DAMAGE STUFF IT THE ITEM BECAME A PROJECTILE!
If that works and it's cool/cold out the compressor would disengage again soon. That also means we need to (or I do) figure out how this clutch is adjusted - some easy some a pill - what's new?
First things first - let's get the electrics checked and known ok and go from there.
Laugh - you'll be the life of the party telling all your friends acronyms for automotive stuff, parts and A/C components! Probably get a brew dumped over your head to shut up - laugh,
T
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wa4chq
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Feb 17, 2010, 3:48 PM
Post #11 of 15
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue
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Hello Tom---
Again, many thanks for the info and speedy replies to questions....
Tomorrow I will check for voltage at the compressor with the engine running. If I find current I will try tapping. If the clutch plate pulls in briefly I think that is where I stop and take it back to the shop. Now I will know that everything to that point works and then they can do what they need to make it work.
It really bothers me to think that they may not have verified that it truly works, (troubleshooting like you've shown me) but instead tell me that it won't work because of a malfunctioning fan...
Will let you know something tomorrow.
I think if someone dumped a brew over my head right now, I'd bless 'em....I could sure use a cold one!
Neil
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wa4chq
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Feb 18, 2010, 12:22 PM
Post #12 of 15
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue
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Hi Tom
I did some voltage checks around the compressor plug. Here is what I found:
Engine on, A/C OFF, one side read .03vdc, the other side read .005vdc
Engine on, A/C ON, one side read .038vdc, the other side read .007vdc
So compressor isn't working because 12v is not getting to it. Relay problem? If so, I'm not sure where it is located.
Thanks
Neil
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Feb 18, 2010, 1:14 PM
Post #13 of 15
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue
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OK: Where were we?
I found and will post below relay location. In the mean time you can take a bare paperclip (not plastic coated) to LPCO when known 12v is there ((by 12v I mean battery voltage - not exactly 12v. If running it would likely be higher)) and jump the two together. If below ~ 65F I'd rather you didn't allow compressor to run without this LPCO operative with engine running - ok if off. Be ready to pull the clip and while it's in the plug don't let the wire of it touch ground of course. Only do this if a TWO wire switch which is just an on/off switch.
That sends the signal that system pressure is just hunky dory (falsely) and should activate relay to send power on to compressor, fans would come on as you've just forced the system to operate if it can. Again - if cold you don't force compressors to stay on! OK if for one or two seconds - not longer!
The minuscule voltage you did find isn't telling me anything important so far and doubt it will mean diddle. If this doesn't trigger voltage to compressor's plug (you could have it off the compressor) then the relay should still be getting a terminal empowered as a trigger and may be the fault for now.
Cheating here ............ Autozone's parts site tells locations of parts - sometimes and did for this relay which is their info not mine from knowing off the top of my head. See if it shows below and test away. If a Ford relay, you might be shocked to find out that a dealer part at full price is cheapest!
Added the pic of it on edit. Looks like a FORD item not Mazda - good for price if needed. Note the holding bail on that type may say P.U. - S.H. = push to release! If in an unbrella housing the second clip is released with a small screwdriver if like the common ones I deal with for Fords like this type.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
RELAY - A/C COMPRESSOR 1995 Ford Escort 1.9L MFI SOHC 4cyl The Relay - A/C Compressor is located: Under hood, passenger side, rear engine area, mounted on upper firewall
  Price: $13.99
Notes: Compressor clutch control relay
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If failed - as said earlier I think, you can usually get one to behave a time or two with a love tap from a screwdriver's plastic handle. Easy testing and again, when in doubt don't and ask again and again if needed, T
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Feb 18, 2010, 1:22 PM)
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wa4chq
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Feb 18, 2010, 2:03 PM
Post #14 of 15
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue
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Hey Tom--
Again, thanks....just visited the Autozone site....I had no idea that existed! Have bookmarked it.
Ok, so if I pull the plug from the LPCO and use the paper clip to jump (inserting paper clip in the ends) this will "close" the 12v wire (what the LPCO does if in line) and allow 12v to go to relay and if working, should then send 12v to compressor. Question: if the fan was disabled, the compressor should still come on? I know I must be repeating myself, but I just want to be sure.
Should I pull the plug on the compressor and check for 12v there after jumping the LPCO? I guess with the gap I measured yesterday, I may have to tap the clutch plate to see if it will kick in...? I'll have to be react quickly to remove the jumper if the after tapping the plate, it kicks in....
If this makes the compressor come on then the problem is the LPCO?
Thanks once more...
Neil
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Feb 18, 2010, 4:41 PM
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Re: '95 Escort a/c compressor - aux. fan issue
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If fan was AFUed for some reason I think it's on its own, would have a relay for it and so forth. Leave it plugged in for testing other stuff though.
We want the 12v to go from the LPCO to compressor - bet the same color wire but won't promise as the dead side when checked at the LPCO. With compressor unplugged the power should get there - KOEO or ON and A/C requested.
Again as thread is long already: The LPCO is there to shut down compressor such that knowns about refrigerant at certain pressures are telling of if it's still a liquid or low pressure can also mean too cold which would frost up in evaporator (ooooh a new word to scare your friends) in dash. So as basic as that is it's critically important not to allow the compressor to even think about compressing returned liquid! FYI - range would be about - ON at ~40PSI and OFF when lower than about 28PSI.
If all checks - plug in compressor and try the tap trick. Believe me - in the trade we do this stuff!
Noted: This stuff wasn't the issue when the compressor was replaced but is either coincidence or who knows? With your test light you can check every fuse everywhere for power at both side of the things without taking them out - nice! Stuff for when lights are on may or will be dead on both sides unless on. Better test that looking at them as once in a while they look fine and aren't.
As far as clutch adjustment which we can deal with in another thread or later.
If this thread gets to page two it would be simpler to start a new one saying part II in subject line for same car. If confused if and when page two gets here look for "view all" or last post may not show up.
One more note for this post: If any of the retaining bails break in removing a plug don't freak out. They get brittle with heat and time and usually can work without OR use plastic wire ties to secure them when all done as needed. Other tricks too that work and won't cause issues for stuff like that too,
T
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