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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Dec 1, 2015, 2:39 PM
Post #51 of 73
(1049 views)
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Carb cleaner is generally flammable but not as good at keeping an engine running as starting fluid. I guess if you wonder try some on a paper towel and see if it burns after sprayed wet in one area or can't burn there?
In that it hasn't run in so long I'd personally rather use starting fluid and yes it too I just got for now $2.49 @ WallyWorld. Somehow I don't think that would be easy to ship being quite dangerously flammable. Forcing fuel down a throttle body has it's risks of a flash or backfire so beware and ready. Don't overdo either just be fast to crank engine especially with starting fluid as it evaporates quickly.
Do have and read fire extinguishers. Should say will work on fuel fire marked "A,B,C." If any reason an engine fire doesn't go out as in flashing back or too much used on any puddle of it or oils put it out after a couple seconds. Hard call as if you do spray an engine with a good fire extinguisher the dusty kind seriously can prevent it from starting for a long time if everything was fine!
These things are also hard on paint and other things fire or not. Read labels.
More: Don't crank engine way too long. Count - 10 seconds is plenty at a time then a full 2 minute wait to try again.
It's been sitting so may not work at all too if lifters have collapsed from long term no oil pressure the valves may not open.
Are you away from any auto parts store at all to buy even the cheapest spark tester? Even one that just goes between spark plug and the wire to it would be nice to know it's working at all.
Hey - it's cold already and should be where I am and any equipment hard to start need to know. If for a reason say lawn mower or Summer equipment doesn't start knowing spark is present handy and starting fluid sometime a must if thing is normal as they do make small engines to start better for cold on purpose like snow removal things.
Another more: If it has spark and given fuel and nothing fires, pharts or anything plugs may be too soaked from earlier so may get spark and not fire. If so say so I'll suggest what to do if so,
T
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Jumpskin
User
Dec 1, 2015, 2:57 PM
Post #52 of 73
(1046 views)
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Ill go and get some starter fluid. It hasn't run for a long time, but it did run for about 45 seconds before flooding out the other day. How long of running am I shooting for? I looked at spark testers today, but did not get one. I'll go back and pick one up. It might be cold where you are, but it is unseasonably hot and sadly it went to nearly 80 here today with a low of 59. Its supposed to cool off this weekend though. (I love cold weather).
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Dec 1, 2015, 3:35 PM
Post #53 of 73
(1040 views)
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If engine turned/ran for a real 45 seconds oil pressure should be fine to run on that part. Rule that out now as a cause of not running because of collapsed lifters. Spark still wonder,
T
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Jumpskin
User
Dec 1, 2015, 3:42 PM
Post #54 of 73
(1037 views)
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It ran smoothly for about 30 seconds and I then had to pump the gas for another 15 to keep it from conking out before it finally flooded. I then tried again about 15 minutes later and it started again for about 10 seconds. I'll get a spark tester for the spark check.
(This post was edited by Jumpskin on Dec 1, 2015, 4:13 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Dec 1, 2015, 8:52 PM
Post #55 of 73
(1025 views)
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? Did it do this AFTER the carb work or nothing done yet? Count seconds as real seconds not guesses of time. Can't know if spark cuts off with this and you would have to witness it watching with hood open running throttle as needed from under the hood you can easily trigger starter at the solenoid with key left on "run" on this I think if the engine was set up with it on inner fender shield or to the side not at starter - can't know what was done to fit this together.
Flooding again, starts again later choke issues on list if nothing done yet.
Did you check oil level and for fuel odor yet? Was this test done with fuel from it thru pump or just spraying. Need to know what's already done or how you did what. It probably has proper spark with this.
Not sure pumping gas with a carb that floods helps or hurts right now but at least it ran some at all.
More to know what made it die out and what you were doing,
T
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Jumpskin
User
Dec 2, 2015, 6:49 AM
Post #56 of 73
(1017 views)
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It did this before I touched the carb. I do not have the exact time it ran, but can only estimate. I now how to start with the solenoid which is on the side fender as you stated. I have not checked oil smell yet because it has been raining here. Will there be an odor even though it has been changed just before trying to start the other day? This test was done using the fuel pump from the fuel tank which I made sure all new gas. The tank was empty while it was sitting, but the carb was not apparently. I have a spark tester coming tomorrow. I went to the store to get the one I was looking at and it had been bought and they were out of stock.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Dec 2, 2015, 8:24 AM
Post #57 of 73
(1011 views)
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? Gotta ask now what or why is there a fuel pump in the tank still on a carbed now engine? Fuel pump on side of this engine if carbed was much lower pressure than an electric one from tank for Fords anyway. There were some carbed vehicles with electric pumps specs for the set up.
This is now a reason for troubles. How does fuel run when it ever ran properly? If from only the tank OE to the 86 Bronco It really should be thought out to just use that as a pick up for fuel and a gauge then pump from engine run off camshaft low pressure more like already mentioned 3-6 or perhaps 4-5PSI is all that's needed. There's slight suction on mechanical pumps pulling from tank to an on engine mechanical pump OR it could be done with a lower pressure in line pump.
It had to have fuel to flood over so wasn't empty or was blasting too much pressure for a carb not really tested out by me as a needle valve really should stop fuel from entering if pushed down with weak pressure of the float, floating or with a finger if running with a top off carb watching for actual fuel level (we aren't there yet nor set to adjust there yet as needed if needed.
Other problem is most all fuel pumps for injection are PUSHING fuel thru injectors not sucking in fuel from the bowl.
Info can be wrong but there was one external pump used for the 86 5.0=302 and gauge only was in the tank but capable of up to 90 PSI which is a LOT! Many rely on being wet with fuel or quickly burn up others a diaphragms and make pump, pump, pump sound vs a buzz sound are not so fussy running empty. It's just a side note but use one with hose for fuel transfer or emptying tanks now wired to run off of an 12v power port frequently on jumper boxes or create or buy one to work that way.
This part changes the show if messed up and not thought out. If a mechanical pump is also used gotta know as I don't think those are going to be happy with high pressure pushed at them or some creation made up and delete mechanical one.
Mechanical pumps are generally one way valves inside allowing fuel in but not back to tank and pressure fuel out but only as strong as a spring that pushes on a diaphragm as well inside like when fuel isn't needed momentarily or done making enough pressure.
I plain don't know how or what would self destruct depending on how this was cobbled?
Yikes - now you have to know what was done or do some testing. Long thread but didn't you say you spend a ton back when on work and it only lasted a month? What was done? Do you know?
It gets worse unfortunately as either had systems for California specs or 49 state specs. There's an evaporative emissions set up in any that could be loaded with liquid fuel being sucked in as I can't guess who has done what about that?
There are many ways this might have been fueled and pumped if original now lost info so far probably forever.
Guess: Actual regular needle valve in carb bowl would stop flow of even high pressure but probably only so long. It was said it worked but lousy for 8 months - right?
Part II of the guess is that needle valve has sustained too much pressure for too long and it wrecked it. A new one for the carb would probably work again and fail again also now IMO as this is a cobbled set up of two different fuel delivery models quite possibly not thought out well enough which is going to be a primary problem now yours to figure out and in the learning stage of vehicle repair - this wouldn't be included in any norms of repair training,
T
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Jumpskin
User
Dec 2, 2015, 10:13 AM
Post #58 of 73
(1007 views)
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The fuel pump is mechanical and on side of engine directly below power steering fluid reservoir/pulley. The pump was working good the other day (the fuel lines are some kind of clear acrylic fuel line) and fuel was flowing in well. I have not been in the tank so I do not know if there is a pump in there or not. It has never been owned in CA so the engine does not have any of their standards. The carb kit just came in, but I still need the cleaner which is supposed to arrive by this afternoon. I am not sure if I answered all of your question so let me know if I missed something.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Dec 2, 2015, 10:45 AM
Post #59 of 73
(1005 views)
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I was going blind at how many different ways the original could have delivered fuel so about impossible to know. One set up showed 2 pumps used without explanation as if for two fuel tanks or what?
Same guess for now. Needle valve is damaged/leaking more likely than sunken float. IDK how fast YOU can get a new one in when kit arrives but might stop this flooding show not helping anything for some time?
This is plain tricky as plain and simple it's the wrong engine for the vehicle and how fudged to make it do anything only a guess now.
It could all be thought thru and done to work properly but so many obnoxious variables this is a mess at best to be sure of much of anything.
See how the kit goes if only that needle valve for now,
T
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Jumpskin
User
Dec 2, 2015, 11:25 AM
Post #60 of 73
(1002 views)
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The kit came with a needle valve and seat and I compared them and they are exactly the same. I'll use them instead of the old one. Thanks for your help so far! I appreciate it. I would not of even gotten this far by myself.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Dec 2, 2015, 12:45 PM
Post #61 of 73
(996 views)
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Look hard at top of carb and what's attached to just it like a rod to choke etc. Don't drop ANYTHING down the carb!
May be clips like mini hitch pins or rod has a hammered dimple only one position it will come out/off. OK to use a sharpie just make a dot where things go. Kits used to have a decent diagram but doesn't/didn't go into minute detail.
Mid note: Carbs are a "top", "middle" + bottom just FYI. Just the top for now. Remove in order you can put flat headed (usually) screws back in exact place. Use a bit of cardboard making holes to hold them noting which was first and make a circle of them is what I did a lot. Some could be longer than others for a reason. Don't mess up. When every possible thing is undone plus the screws it should lift right off but could also be stuck. If so very carefully pry where the gasket is if with about a 1/4" flathead screwdriver or tool that would do and gently twist - don't wreck softer metal of carb. It may just lift partly or totally - each different by age or gasket type used. Some the gasket stays fine some it can split leaving part of it on middle and top a pest to remove cleanly for new.
Then you have full view of bowl and float. Float should with a little rod just lift up note that rod also holds it in place when together too. Rod, float should just lift out together - set aside on clean tray or dish -what works for you.
You can then see if needle valve is loose or held with a small clip wire or something and came out or stayed in the bore it seals in is a hole with two slots such that a flat head screwdriver larger now can get in slots of both indents and unscrew it. Use care always but there's a small gasket under it and the bottom of that and a new one it kit.
With it out you should be able to remove fuel inlet and spray thru that to clean anything out there, probably nothing but you know its open without even tiny debris that can even cause a needle valve not to seat and seal shut.
New should match all maybe different color of the pointed tip? You have full view of fuel bowl now. Almost has to be some junk in there if only powder dirt? If rust flakes or mud that usually comes out with a magnet and careful spray. Jets are also screws with exact size holes that screw in also. Can be left and no new ones in kit. Spray thru those holes and look down and watch spray come out inside throttle body in middle section. That's clean now if so.
Screw in thing and gasket where needle valve will go snug is enough. Now ready to put float, rod that goes thru it and new needle valve back in dry bowl now may not set in place or may have something to hold it? If you push on where metal of float touches needle valve holding that rod down that how high it can go if floating in proper fuel. Many you need to hold with finger and use provided paper like thing marked with measurements to a line on float to top of middle of carb body or whatever it says and shows. If way the heck off that should say you gently bend such that it's right on the # specified while still holding that float and rod down as if carb was all together it will be.
At this point you could run the engine but don't. We are into page three already and would take a whole page for another time but not really necessary. In this you can cleanly fill the bowl with clean fuel but probably better not.
Put top back down without forcing anything in the same way it came off.
We/YOU left bowl empty this round so only cranking is going to fill it with fuel so don't really expect this to start right away it won't and just let it fill by cranking engine now unseen and choke plate is cold should be shut - everything is cold even at 100F that's cold to your engine.
Start it up. Said it may take time for fuel to fill not much different than a carb that ran out of gas and when you added gas to tank type cases if you ever went thru that.
It should run and not leak. Not certain how idle screw or set up is on this but forgive it for a little while and just let it warm up, watch choke open wide which is if every other thing about the engine was right is you new idle speed you would adjust to spec if this thing was new. No more flooding out the carb should be possible if needle is pushing down cleanly in its seat pushed by float, floating in fuel - got it? That alone should end the flooding crap for about sure if done right.
See how that much goes. You can go back there again later with same gasket almost always.
* Begin any of this with clean outside parts of carb.
* Do not use Teflon tape to seal fuel on anything threaded the threads or a flare is the seal!
* Any cold run speed adjustment or idle adjustment count turns you made in or out so you have a reference point to go back to.
Hey - sorry that info off the top of my head not copied from some other place. If something missing in that dissertation forgive me, it's not in front of me and from memory from a very long time ago now.
Good luck - that may or may not solve many issues for just that done well,
T
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Jumpskin
User
Dec 2, 2015, 4:48 PM
Post #62 of 73
(987 views)
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Thank you! I'll get started on that tomorrow afternoon when all my finals are over and let you know how it goes. Thanks again!
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Jumpskin
User
Dec 3, 2015, 3:24 PM
Post #63 of 73
(969 views)
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Got everything clean and noticed three things. First, the spring on the venturi no longer even looks like a spring its been crushed. Secondly there is a hollow needle on the top part of the carb and it was loose and I just lightly wiggled and it popped out. Thirdly, one idle adjustment screw is bent. Other than that it looks pretty good. Is this repairable?
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Jumpskin
User
Dec 3, 2015, 3:26 PM
Post #64 of 73
(968 views)
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I am still waiting for the new float and I also got new jets of the right size. The needles that a clip connects to in the venturi also seem loose.
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Jumpskin
User
Dec 3, 2015, 3:59 PM
Post #65 of 73
(965 views)
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Looking at a diagram the venturi part that has a bad spring and pins is the air metering assembly. By the way the small holes at the bottom of the bowl were clogged. The new float is coming in Saturday.
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Jumpskin
User
Dec 3, 2015, 4:04 PM
Post #66 of 73
(964 views)
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I believe the part that went in the top that came out is the brass pass tube.
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Jumpskin
User
Dec 3, 2015, 7:38 PM
Post #67 of 73
(950 views)
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I was about the order the idle screw, but do I measure the thread or whole screw? There are 3 different sizes.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Dec 4, 2015, 1:04 AM
Post #68 of 73
(930 views)
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! Your observations suggest this carb has been messed with and broken and may not be useable! Didn't want to hear that.
Idle screws on last several engines with carbs frequently tamper proofed them and people wouldn't buy the tool needed or knock out a plug so you couldn't mess with them. They shouldn't need messing with ever but at rebuild time or if dirty do need to come out to clean thru and put back where it was.
It's probably a "clutch" headed idle mixture screw and maybe just straighten it out. It should turn in to bottom by hand easily or something isn't right so don't force it.
Almost all you still need a tool to touch it and or kit like this I have and get any bits extra needed for assorted screw heads. Hope picture shows..........
3rd try if not show Google Images of idle mixture adjustment tools,
This makes it easy but if messed up, cross threaded or broken critical parts you are in trouble with this carb!
Our situations are night and day different. I have all these tools and a box full of spare screws to match up on hand now still! Who else would? Not many. Even back when you could get a whole used original carb to work with dirt cheap, harder now to impossible depending on your area.
This whole kit of assorted types of them is turned by hand at one end thru a strong cable that makes a sharp angle turn to accept a 1/4" drive socket for type of screw head. Scary but just that alone as a tool I think cost me near $100 bucks about 35 years ago but by Snap-On which always was expensive.
Now a bit lost for you. If this is broken or cobbled too it's back to square one. Another carb to redo that isn't messed up or a rebuilt hoping it isn't messed up and some could be.
Note: Cars sold new with carbs either had settings pre-set off some with or without having to go back at a 500 mile new car/vehicle break-in check up and set these things and more all over a vehicle to last till some service or repair came alone later.
BTW when if dealing with idle mixture screws know that it's mostly just idle mixture not the mixture the fuel will deliver thru the ranges which many people think and mess with them. Unless clogged they don't need messing with so car makers made it near impossible for DIYers to mess with and gave up and just made everything fuel injected as it was a total headache for both techs and customers of even brand new vehicles.
You have to make the educated decision to bail out on this carb, get a good "core" to work with or get a rebuilt one. Trouble there is your call as it's more $$ at this vehicle that I doubt is the end of making it run properly at all.
Can you post pic of problem area(s) of just this right now? At some point you are going to have to decide if this cobbled vehicle is going to be worth the battle as a whole not just one item at a time,
T
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Jumpskin
User
Dec 4, 2015, 8:28 AM
Post #69 of 73
(920 views)
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The tube that came out is laying next to the hole it came from. The screw that is bent is in the other pic and then I have a pic of the main body of the carb.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Dec 4, 2015, 9:42 AM
Post #70 of 73
(910 views)
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? Just surfed the whole web in an hour and almost found a name for it! Best I can guess is it's a vent tube that goes in pointed side down probably for evap system to start and stop as needed from canister.
Fuel mix needle valve? Doesn't look bent to me but where's the spring? That one may not belong to this carb!
Plenty of room for error but should look like this as a set available new searching carb #...............
IDK, if those showed they were exact for the model you said it was but who knows now?
Kit should have come with a total diagram of every last thing about it in diagram with arrows to each part w probably a # and another place what the # names each.
I don't think these seal raw fuel, the pointed end sets to allow so much flow thru where it bottoms.
You have this a lot more apart than just the needle valve already alone which was the likely issue first. I suppose if evap's canister is full of fuel it could cause flood out too said back when as the whole set up doesn't belong in the truck.
There is so much missing info this is near impossible now carb not even known if it belonged on the engine that didn't belong either.
Do you have any details of what was done to make it run at all without vomiting fuel out at least but ran? What was missing then or done may help now and bet not available.
IDK - perhaps put back together what you have, back on vehicle and see what it does. In this whole thread there was no mention that this engine swap ever worked right just that it ran. That's not very encouraging about the engine was good then in other ways now this.
This equates to two puzzles (the things you put together for the picture things) from pieces of TWO puzzles upside down with no picture and not the same pieces to put together to work with.
If you can't get it to run this cobbled thing is yours to decide always - put it all back to OE if you can find a whole engine and all parts including all wiring and components that came from a known well running one junked for another reason totally or cut you losses and let this whole thing go for salvage value now.
Can't pull magic for this with way too many unknows getting worse as it goes along!
Tom
Pic ^^^^ was there?
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Jumpskin
User
Dec 4, 2015, 10:05 AM
Post #71 of 73
(907 views)
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I removed the spring. It is only slightly bent when you roll it on a table. I found replacements, but there were three different sizes for the 2150 carb and I did not know if I was to measure from the start of the threads or end to end. I do not know what was done a year ago to the truck. The truck has run good before, but it has been 8 or 9 years ago. How do I put the upside down vent tube back in? Thanks for searching for the answers! Going above the call of duty!
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Jumpskin
User
Dec 4, 2015, 10:47 AM
Post #72 of 73
(898 views)
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Like you said I did disassemble completely, but had to remove all gaskets to clean according to the cleaner. I found somewhere with the exact carb with step by step pictures and I also took pictures of every step during disassembly.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Dec 4, 2015, 10:56 AM
Post #73 of 73
(898 views)
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Can't see where it's bent but it probably would go back in without force? Hey - web shopping doesn't equate to setting it on a counter and matching it up or trudging thru a junkyard to get a matched correct set one a spare if you wanted but old so may be none to check out. That or I would go thru a selection of nuts on hand and see how it matched to run the length of thread or maybe very carefully straight the one you have or just run a thread chaser know exact out of the tap and die set.
It's all the dang tools you probably don't have.
A thought: Take good one and thread it to just till it catches then count how many turns it goes till bottoms out. Do the same with the other to see if it matches? Just an idea as what counts is the tip end but not wrecking threads of carb either at all.
If you get something credible and they did clean out spraying thru with them out is the only reason to touch them at all put them back as said already if unknown where they belong by turns 2.5 to 3 turns out. Other is if running at least OK is tweak them at that and count turns OUT by 1/4 or 1/2 turns till best then back in 1/2 turn or so. If one want something different than the other fine if just a little but not whole turns.
Again - it came out so think it will go back in and flaw I can't see isn't to do with the threads,
T
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