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solidgoldcaddy
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Dec 17, 2006, 1:09 PM
Post #1 of 35
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93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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ok so i did a full head gasket replacement on my girlfriends lumina the car not the van. replaced the head gaskets, valley pan gasket, valve covers and egr gasket. also new plugs and wires, air filter and recent fuel filter. we put it all back together, and found we had bad lifters that caused a bent pushrod and valve. so we went back in and replaced the rod, lifters and bad valve and reassembled. then fired it up. perfect, ran great, so she drove it to work on friday, saturday to my house and then home each night and back today. well she said its running bad. i went out and started it. idle is fine and smooth. around 750-850 rpm. so thats good. then i reved it up a bit and it sounded like a little backrap but up front. so i put it in gear and it makes a rattling or tapping noise on acceleration and vibrates a little. idle is fine in gear as well...she indicated that the car was on the highway and all of a sudden loss of power and the noise and vibration. it doesnt do it when you let off the throttle, but when you go to accelerate or from a stop you can hear the noise. kind of a hollow sound from in the car. i really dont want to have to go back into this thing. its not fun to work on, and we cant really afford the labor charges of a shop. im pretty mechanically inclined so any ideas would be great. i wondered if the trans would do anything like this??? please help we need the car. thanks guys. chris
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 17, 2006, 2:16 PM
Post #2 of 35
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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Arggh!! I'm almost sure the 3.1 is an interferance engine. With a bent pushrod and valve in this mix this could be the problem and you DON'T want that!!
Have to ask how many miles are on it and what prompted this job to begin with? T
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solidgoldcaddy
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Dec 17, 2006, 3:28 PM
Post #3 of 35
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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the whole issue started with leaking coolant from a metal heater hose and headgasket leaking down the back of the block. the lifter was collapsed when reassembled and i was informed the oil pressure would bring it back to normal height and lift. well it didnt and bent the pushrod and valve. what i dont understand is it was all replaced and then ran fine for 3 days and now a noise and sluggish/loss of power. we have stuck alot of time into this car, and it seems like hopeless to throw it all away. the car is in nice shape and has around 135K. any ideas? what do you mean interference engine????
(This post was edited by solidgoldcaddy on Dec 17, 2006, 3:29 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Dec 17, 2006, 4:08 PM
Post #4 of 35
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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An interferance engine:
That means that as pistons go up and down they must in time with the camshaft telling the valves to do their tricks and be out of the way or there is a collision which can easily render and engine useless!!
It could result in bent valves, a hole in a piston, damaged valve and the pieces of debris will render that engine a lawn ornament!! This is usually caused by a jumped timing belt or chain. Wicked old engines didn't have this problem.
A compression test may show that this is game over for this engine or not.
You have said noise!! Poor performance and bent parts which lead to this and would be symptomatic of trouble. 135K would generally be early for the failure but there's no telling.
It's going to take some careful diagnostics to tell right where you stand right now, T
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solidgoldcaddy
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Dec 17, 2006, 4:19 PM
Post #5 of 35
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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so you think possibly the timing chain/belt slipped and its out of time? what explains the all of a sudden poor driving and performance?
and as far as interference engines, what other kinds are there??? thats why i questioned it i didnt know of any other type. thanks man. chris
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 17, 2006, 9:03 PM
Post #6 of 35
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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A non interferance engine might run lousy or even quit on you with a timing belt or chain problem. You have a chain in a 3.1
The belted ones need replacement every 60K or so symptoms or not.
The way back old days which I still live you simply bought a bigger engine and now it's squeeze in all the power you can muster in smaller ones. There were no interferance engines when I got started.
The highest mileage 3.1 I've known of died of natural causes with an orig timing chain and about 300K on it!!
A compression test might tell you or the only best way it to get there and look in which case you plan to replace it anyway.
Help guys here! How would you test this out? T
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steve01832
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Dec 18, 2006, 3:57 AM
Post #7 of 35
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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Tom is absolutely correct. The first test you should do is check compression of all 6 cylinders. If all of the cylinders are low by the 3rd "puff" suspect the timing chain. If only 1 or 2 cylinders are low, suspect mechanical problems associated to only those cylinders. When checking compression you only crank the engine 3 revolutions. You can actually hear what I'm talking about by listening to the starter as you go. The first revolution or 1st puff is very crucial. Watch the guage and the 1st revolution should be up over 50 psi. By the 3rd puff the compression should be around 125 psi. The repair manual should give factory compression test specs, mine are only estimates. Also, a mechanic's stethoscope will be a handy tool for you to have. It will help you pinpoint the noise in the engine.
If your compression checks out ok in all cylinders, do a vacuum test. You should have around 18-25 hg at idle with a steady needle. A fast, even fluctuation indicates a sticking valve in one cylinder. As you increase the rpm gradually, vacuum should evenly and steadily fall off. If you snap throttle, vacuum should dive down fast and jump back up when the throttle closes.
That should cover the basics, post back with the results and we will go from there.
Steve
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solidgoldcaddy
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Dec 18, 2006, 5:18 PM
Post #8 of 35
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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ok so we took it in to our mechanic, and heres the 411
the tech told us that cylinders number 3 and 5, which is the bank near the firewall, the center one and the drivers side, had low compression. this is after we changed the head gaskets. my guess is the head is either cracked or warped. but that still doesnt make sense to me that the clicking or tapping noise is there upon acceleration. he also said there is a spike on the chart in vacuum and indicated that it could be valves not seating right because of a warped head or leaking through a crack in the head. either way, vacuum was affected. I should probably mention my girl had to drive the car in the red of the temp gauge for about 3 or 4 minutes prior to the entire head gasket replacement, in my opinion, plenty of time for the heat to get to the head and warp or crack it. they indicated all the timing and ignition systems were functioning properly and hinted toward the mechanical part of the head or valvetrain being the culprit. the valve that bent was on the other bank and he said those 3 cyl. were fine(numbers 2,4,6). no leaks or low compression there. they also noticed some coolant on the outside(visible) head bolt on the drivers corner near the brake booster.they didnt know about it leaking, but they mentioned it all the same. i myself think warped or cracked head. what do you guys think given the provided information? btw thanks again for the help. it sure makes a world of difference to a backyard mechanic. thanks guys. chris
also what would cause a valve to stick?? i mean, would it be a good idea to replace all the pushrods? since there was an incident of a bent one and bad lifters.
(This post was edited by solidgoldcaddy on Dec 18, 2006, 5:22 PM)
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way2old
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Dec 18, 2006, 5:28 PM
Post #9 of 35
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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Are you positive you replaced the push rods correctly?? Intake and exhaust are different legnths on that motor.
Being way2old is why I need help from younger minds
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solidgoldcaddy
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Dec 18, 2006, 5:29 PM
Post #10 of 35
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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yeah i checked and re checked them. cause it ran fine then all of a sudden, tick tick tick, and loss of power.
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steve01832
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Dec 19, 2006, 3:33 AM
Post #11 of 35
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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Unfortunately, you have to pull that head again. When you get it off, check the gasket closely between those two cylinders. It may have pinched and cracked when you set the head and tightened it down. If the gasket is ok. look at the block with a magnifying glass between those cylinders. If again you see no cracks, you probably need a head. There are companies that repair and sell them as a "remanufactured head". These a lot of times can be obtained thru your local auto parts stores. In today's market, I've seen more heads than head gaskets fail due to the manufactures using aluminum. It's cheaper, lighter in weight, and supposedly dissipates heat faster than iron. But, the downside is that they crack once they overheat very quickly. Cars aren't built with quality in mind anymore. Aluminum is so fragile that it just shouldn't be subjected to the automotive strains. ALUMINUM IS FOR BEER CANS! Bring back the cast iron and make vehicles the quality product they used to be. I'll step off my soap-box now.
When you get the head off, check the oil galleries in the pushrods and lifters. Clean out any sludge if you plan to reuse them. Then, soak the lifters in clean motor oil before you reassemble them. This helps to avoid them from collapsing. Good luck and keep us posted.
P.S. If you have any computer or electrical problems for this car post back. I have the factory electrical schematics for a '97 Lumina. I can give you all of the PCM pin-outs and wiring schematics that you need.
Steve
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solidgoldcaddy
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Dec 19, 2006, 8:15 PM
Post #12 of 35
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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ok so i pulled the heads both off today, and i didnt see anything that was wrong other than the number 5 cylinder was black, the valves and the piston head. the others, the intake was black but the exhaust was white. so i know that 5 for sure is having problems. i didnt check for cracks with a mag glass yet, but the gasket did look ok, however i plan on replacing them anyway. tomorrow the heads go in for a pressure check and cleaning. and if need be, resurfacing, im hoping the head is damaged rather than the block in any way. anything else to look for??? if the results of the pressure checks come out ok, what else would cause the mechanical noise and the sluggish acceleration? ill check the block tomorrow when i get a chance, but i pray its the head. thanks again fellas. means alot to my girlfriend and saves me tons of time and money. check back with you...
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steve01832
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Dec 20, 2006, 3:20 AM
Post #13 of 35
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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If the results come back that the head is ok you may want to ask them to do a complete valve job. That entails replacing the valves, guides, seals, springs, and retainers. You may also want to replace the pushrods and lifters. I know I just ran the bill up, but that is the correct way to go to ensure a quality job. You know by now that pulling these heads is a pain in the neck. You also will need to replace the head gaskets and head bolts with new ones again. Once you torque them down once, they are junk. Clean the piston and check the top for any signs of damage. Cracks or indentations, color variations, etc. Unfortunately at this point you can't check the rings. But, the only problems I've seen from these engines has been cracked heads. (And I've seen a lot of them). Post back when you get the heads back and BEFORE you reassemble them.
P.S. If you see something that doesn't look quite right and you have a digital camera, feel free to take a pic and post it here. If we can see a problem, we can tell you what it is and catch it before it becomes an issue down the road. The more info we have, the better our chances of diagnosing problems more accurately.
By the way, check out cylinder 2 also. If that cylinder looks similar to cylinder 5 we may have an ignition problem. Check for black carbon in both cylinders and compare them closely. It's possible that the coil is not firing correctly causing a build up in the cylinders. A pic in this situation would really help. I don't want to see you have to tear this down again.
Steve
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solidgoldcaddy
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Dec 20, 2006, 5:23 AM
Post #14 of 35
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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yeah i will take pics, and post them here when i get the heads back. cylider 2 should be the passenger most front bank correct? and also i will ask about the valve job. this still puzzles me about the ticking noise i heard when accelerating, and i forgot to mention until just now. she said before we ripped it apart here after it ran good for 3-4 days, the voltmeter was jumping around, could that indicate a possible faulty coil pack lke you said???
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steve01832
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Dec 20, 2006, 6:00 PM
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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No, a faulty coil pack will give you a rough misfire. You will step on the gas and the car will shake, pop, do all but perform well. On these ignition systems, the loss of 1 cylinder means the loss of both cylinders that share that coil pack. The voltmeter problem could be a loose wire, loose belt, or a bad alternator. Let's get the engine back together first and then see what the guage does after that.
Steve
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solidgoldcaddy
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Dec 24, 2006, 7:11 PM
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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well more bad news here. seems we had problems with the heads and had a external crack in one and needed a resurfacing of the other, so i have 2 cleaned and pressure checked heads, both resurfaced and the cracked one is replaced with a refurbished one. all ok there that cost 300 plus new bolts and gaskets, brings it to 335. now i put it all back together for the 4th time. toqued it all correctly made double sure the valve train went together correct. changed oil and filter and filled the fluids. (i changed the oil again in case coolant found its way to the crankcase) anyway. started it up, and it ran perfectly for the first 10 seconds. then, a loud and rhythmatic tapping, a single tap, almost a cracking noise proceeded to bring itself to my attention. so i immediately shut it down so not to damage anything and pondered. (all the pushrods were checked for straightness and oil passages were cleaned as well.) then started to second guess my own work. i was positive i did everything correct and now with the new heads, there should be no problems at all. the same noise as before when the pushrod bent is back. and idk what the hell to do. i checked out all the pushrods, separated them in 2 piles, exhaust (longer) and intake. exhaust goes to the B on the guide and the intake goes to the O. those were right everytime i reassembled. then the rockers torqued to 33 ft lbs, and wiggle tested them all to be secure. then the intake, bolt threads in a little oil for lube and torqued from center out to 14 ft lbs. did those about 5-6 times to make em all right. then the plenum, same way. and assembled the vacuum and fuel lines, linkage and wires. all as before. im getting good at it by now. and i dont understand. is there a possiblity of something wrong with a cam or maybe the guide for the pushrods is wrong? idk man am i sick of this thing. its all minimal cost, but wtf is going on here. i have everyone stumped at work and anyone else i talk to. we are all mechanically inclined and work on cars everyday. maybe not engine repair, but auto glass replacement is in the same line of work. i just dont know anymore. im beginning to think this car will never run right again. not without significant finds which we dont have for it. or a blessing from God. MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!
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steve01832
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Dec 25, 2006, 3:54 AM
Post #17 of 35
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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The only thing I can tell you at this point is to get a mechanic's stethoscope and try to pinpoint where the noise is coming from. You may end up having to pull the intake manifold if the noise is a pushrod or a lifter. You may want to let it run longer than 10 seconds so the oil pressure builds and the oil gets to the top of the engine and see if the noise goes away. A good rule of thumb is if one lifter collapses, replace the entire set. Another thing to look at is the distributor plug. There is a plug in the intake manifold where the distributor would be. It has a normal hold down. It has a gear that drives the oil pump shaft. Make sure the shaft is seated correctly in the oil pump drive.
Without hearing the noise myself, I really am at a loss.
PS Another thing to check is take the serpentine belt off and run the engine. (You only have a short time window here). If the noise goes away, it is a pulley or bearing on an accessory. If the noise is still there, then you confirmed it is internal engine.
Steve
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solidgoldcaddy
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Dec 25, 2006, 8:06 AM
Post #18 of 35
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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lifters are all new, the noise sounds like, as best as i can describe it, something is being compresed or pushed that shouldnt be or not seating in somewhere, and then the part snaps into where it should be and makes the noise, i know that doesnt help, but thats what my gut tells me. thanks though, ill try the oil pump thing, but the oil seemed to be pumping fine, but idk, like i said i have no more guesses, im stumped and frustrated and need something...
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steve01832
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Dec 25, 2006, 5:41 PM
Post #19 of 35
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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Pull the belt and run it. If the noise is still there, you will need to listen with a stethoscope to pinpoint the noise location.
Steve
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solidgoldcaddy
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Dec 25, 2006, 10:20 PM
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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ill try thanks man
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solidgoldcaddy
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Dec 26, 2006, 6:41 PM
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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ok so update.
tonight i tore it back down to the heads. and found that all pushrods, rockers, and everything was installed correctly, all were torqued and all looked and seemed fine. then we did a compression test with the valvetrain removed, but the heads still on and valves and springs on. all cylinders except one which is cylinder 5(the one closest to the brake booster) all read from 120 to 125 lbs. the weak cylinder(5) read 75 lbs. heads were pressure tested and cleaned and resurfaced prior to the teardown tonight. im wondering if something like a connecting rod or bearing either cracked or broke, and is causing the noise. im still puzzled but im guessing this is more serious than thought before. pinpointed the problem to cylinder 5 and i dont know what to do to troubleshoot from here to find the cause of this. also i manually turned the crankshaft via the balancer bolt, and i have a tick, or a click when i move it back and forth, is this timing chain slack and is it normal? i can feel it in the cam when i touch the cam and rock the wrench back and forth. idk fellas as usual im stumped. thanks everyone who has helped this far. means alot to me.
(This post was edited by solidgoldcaddy on Dec 26, 2006, 6:45 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 26, 2006, 9:17 PM
Post #22 of 35
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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Arggh! Timing chain will have some slop -- about 5 degrees on the balancer marks is enough but even if trashed it wouldn't really select one cylinder??
That low cylinder needs some checking out. With engine running and making the noise it should change or go away if you pull the plug wire to that cylinder. None of this is very encouraging as a bearing, wrist pin or other problem is not easy and may indicate that it is not really fixable, arggh!! again, This would cause me to seek out a whole good used motor if you like the car but see what others have to say about this if you have some more time, T
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solidgoldcaddy
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Dec 27, 2006, 7:13 PM
Post #23 of 35
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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ok so i found the cause of the entire thing. we put the valvetrain back together, and did a compression test. all cylinders are good. then i looked as it was cranking and the exhaust valve of the #5 cylinder wasnt moving, neither was the rod, and neither was the lifter or rocker. yup camshaft. and on the 3.1L that means pulling the engine. so yippie. thanks to all of those that helped and racked your brains to help us. any hints on pulling a fwd engine that might help an old school rwd mechanic??? thanks again fellas. chris
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Tom Greenleaf
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Dec 27, 2006, 8:08 PM
Post #24 of 35
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Re: 93 lumina 3.1L, puzzled
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Never did get into engine removal but will say that some of these cars the engine may go down and out easier than up and out. I think almost all RWDs are done from overhead.
You make find some neat data from AllData.com but you pay them about $25 but which must look like pocket change about now.
Good luck, folks here to help as we can. You may need new lifters for the lobes for that bad area on camshaft. Only once but I have heard of a camshaft snapping and didn't turn at the far end. That must have been a nightmare! T
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solidgoldcaddy
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Dec 27, 2006, 8:11 PM
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thanks. ill check online for links
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