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motor swaping


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toolman0007
User

May 9, 2014, 2:30 PM

Post #1 of 28 (3965 views)
  post locked   motor swaping  

I have a 1996 Ford Crown vic with a 4.6 L. automatic major frame rust issues, but a topnotch power plant. I picked up a 96 ford
ranger XLT ext cab it's got the V6 3.4 "I think" with 5 speed manual, does anyone know if the 4.6 will bolt up to the 3.4 transmission . I am taking all the engine control systems and harness with the 4.6. and inter grading it. not sure if a different computer or ECM would be required taking the 4.6 from auto to manual shift. if that's the case I would just stick with the auto trans anyone have any input it would be gratefully appreciated
thanks


Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Discretesignals profile image

May 9, 2014, 3:05 PM

Post #2 of 28 (3957 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  

Why would you want to do something like this? This would be one heck of a project. You'd be better off selling the Vic's powerplant and using that money to fix up the Ranger.

The ranger should have either a 3.0L or 4.0L. The transmission in the vic is a 4r70W and the Ranger's manual is probably a M5R1.

It is pretty obvious the bell housing bolt patterns are different.









Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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May 9, 2014, 3:17 PM

Post #3 of 28 (3955 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  

The operating systems from both vehicles is quite different and merged with many other electrical functions in the vehicle beyond engine operation so if you think you are going to simply swap harnesses, that's not going to work out too well. That harness was built to operate a car, not a truck, not to mention it's totally against federal law to do that.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



toolman0007
User

May 10, 2014, 12:32 AM

Post #4 of 28 (3935 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  

why would I want to do something like this,LOL simply because I want to. I want the v8 in the little pickup.
guess I stay with the automatic trans. this is what I do, I do things most just don't consider. I don't see to much of a problem if I stick with all the key components from the vic, ecm,harness along with abs system not much from the ranger system would be left except lighting system , two good weekends and it should be up and running once every thing has been pulled from each vehicle.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

May 10, 2014, 12:42 AM

Post #5 of 28 (3931 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  


Quote
I don't see to much of a problem if I stick with all the key components from the vic, ecm,harness along with abs system not much from the ranger system would be left except lighting system , two good weekends and it should be up and running once every thing has been pulled from each vehicle.


Hahaha.............. you actually believe that.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



toolman0007
User

May 10, 2014, 1:05 AM

Post #6 of 28 (3929 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  

 a car or a pick up, and not a full size pick up I might add. the systems are designed to control whats in them it has nothing to do with the type of body around them. electrical functions in the vehicle the only system that might remain intact with in the pick up will be the lighting system, and wheel speed censers, as for federal laws that remains to be seen. guess you haven't dabbled to much in restomods, adapting other systems to functioning where they would not normally be.
if the intact system functions with in the car it will still function with in the pickup. although I'm not sure how it will go when it goes in for NY inspection, as the system goes by year and type of vehicle and that year pickup didn't come with a v8. yes it's an undertaking but I love a good challenge my only concern was with the trans, the 5 speed is out and the auto trans stays.


toolman0007
User

May 10, 2014, 1:08 AM

Post #7 of 28 (3923 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  

yes I do....remember, way back there were those that honestly thought the world was flat.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

May 10, 2014, 1:23 AM

Post #8 of 28 (3922 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  

That Ranger left the factory with an emissions certifications label under the hood. ANY modification of that system is defined as tampering and illegal to drive on US highways and if you think that wiring harness isn't tied into the body of the vehicle, you are in for a rude awakening.



Federal law

The federal tampering prohibition is contained in section 203(a)(3) of the Clean Air Act (Act), 42 U.S.C. 7522(a)(3). Section 203(a)(3)(A) of the Act prohibits any person from removing or rendering inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in any motor vehicle in compliance with regulations under Title II of the Act (i.e., regulations requiring certification that vehicles meet federal emissions standards). The maximum civil penalty for a violation of this section by a manufacturer or dealer is $25,000; for any other person, $2,500. Accordingly, any change from the original certified configuration of a vehicle or engine, or the manufacture or sale of a non-original equipment aftermarket part or system could be considered a violation of section 203(a)(3) of the Act. This would include modifications to the fuel delivery system.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



(This post was edited by Hammer Time on May 10, 2014, 1:24 AM)


Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Discretesignals profile image

May 10, 2014, 2:12 AM

Post #9 of 28 (3918 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  

If you do get this done, i'd like to see some pictures. The 4.6L is a pretty wide motor and you might have to do some cutting out of the wheel wells. You might have to do away with the brake booster as well.

Looks like someone has done this swap and went with a hydroboost setup out of a Mustang. Golly that is tight....lol







Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.

(This post was edited by Discretesignals on May 10, 2014, 2:24 AM)


toolman0007
User

May 10, 2014, 12:33 PM

Post #10 of 28 (3897 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  

Hammer Time. no disrespect, and yes I did read what you sent. and no where does it say you can't move or transfer a certified un tampered system from one vehicle to another, the only issues I see in wiring, that goes to the the frame. would be ABS speed censers, and fuel tank connections because of different pigtails simple swap of pins in the pin connectors. the speed censers in the truck and the car work in the same manor. they send data, to the Abs cm again no alterations and still a certified system, just being move from car to truck. although I do see a trip to DMV to get the required certification that nothing has been tampered with, cause the first time I go for inspection they may go WTF. and yes I am willing to go through all this effort for what I want. don't under estimate me I have a good 38 years around cars, much of which was in the collision end, and I can rip through a vehicle tare it down to the bones and do pretty much any fabrication or rebuild any part of a car.or truck, how do you think I got the name tool man,from those that know me. anyways don't take it personal,even old dogs can learn new tricks. part of why we are here is it not to learn and share. stick around it's going to get interesting


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

May 10, 2014, 12:37 PM

Post #11 of 28 (3895 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  


Quote
and no where does it say you can't move or transfer a certified un tampered system from one vehicle to another


Of course it does. Tampering is changing anything whatsoever in that certified vehicle and a different motor is certainly tampering. If you want to get real technical, you can't even modify the exhaust system. You don't want to debate that with me. I've done my homework.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



toolman0007
User

May 10, 2014, 12:47 PM

Post #12 of 28 (3894 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  

  A little cutting LOL, yes the first thing is front clip is coming right off. making it easier for setting the motors height and set back if needed , i believe the mounts will except this 4.6. with out changes, but could be moved to gain room.
I will document this little venture as a little inspiration to those that appreciate what gets done to the American cars and trucks we all have


toolman0007
User

May 10, 2014, 12:49 PM

Post #13 of 28 (3893 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  

by the way thanks for the trans info


toolman0007
User

May 10, 2014, 1:12 PM

Post #14 of 28 (3885 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  

so your saying you can't take a vehicle "certified" single exhaust and change it to duel exhaust, just an example
people do all kinds of modifications on all sorts of cars and trucks and there are all kinds of business that deal in certified factory fit parts. I know those who have built old mustangs taking a particular model and implementing a specific package offered with that model and going to ford them selves and getting the car re certified as some thing else other than what it was manufactured under. because the particular model they went with is more valuable , but they go through one heck of and inspection and if anyone item is off from factory specks for that model produced they will not certify it


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

May 10, 2014, 1:39 PM

Post #15 of 28 (3884 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. There are some aftermarket parts that have been CARB certified for use on specific vehicles. I'm aware these Mods are commonly done and for the most part, these laws are not enforced on those things but that doesn't mean that they couldn't enforce it at ay time.

excerpt from a Memorandum from

UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY WASHINGTON, D.C. 20460
May 13 1991


question 5.
with the converter already removed by the owner, is it tampering to install a section of pipe in the space left vacant by the converter's removal?

Answer 5. of pipe in the void left where the vehicle owner removed the converter is considered by the Agency to be part of the act of tampering. owner to remove a converter from his own vehicle. Section 203(a)(3)(A) clearly prohibits all individuals from removing or rendering inoperative any emission control device or element of design. If a repair facility completes, assists, or participates - in in this act of tampering begun by someone else, it has also acted in violation of section 203(a)(3)(A) of the Act and by installing a defeat device has violated section 203(a)(3)(B).

Question 6. If a converter-equipped vehicle is brought to a muffler shop Yes. The installation by a muffler shop of a section It is a violation of section 203(a)(3)(A) for a vehicle If a converter-equipped vehicle is brought into a muffler shop with no exhaust system past the exhaust manifold or headers, is it tampering to install a non-stock or dual exhaust system?

Answer 6, Yes. The answer to Question #5 applies. The repair facility would be completing the act of tampering in this situation by manufacturing, installing and selling an emission control defeat device.

Question 7, Is it tampering to install a dual exhaust system on a vehicle originally equipped with a single exhaust?

Answer 7. Yes. The general rule is that a motor vehicle emission control system (which includes the exhaust configuration) may not be changed from an EPA certified configuration without subjecting the repair shop to liability for violating the federal tampering prohibition. configuration, including the location of the converters, and exhaust pipe diameter and length, are items specified by the manufacturer because engines and some of the associated emissions systems are generally affected by the exhaust system backpressure, which subsequently affects vehicle emissions. The installation of a dual exhaust system with hyo converters would, therefore, be considered tampering. The Agency will not, however, require a repair shop to restore a vehicle which has a non-stock dual exhaust system to a single exhaust configuration. A shop - may, therefore, replace sections of pipes on such a system, except for that portion of the pipes where the original catalytic converter would have been located. It would not be considered tampering to install a dual exhaust system with tvo converters if the vehicle manufacturer certified an identical engine-chassis configuration for the vehicle model year or newer that includes such an exhaust configuration.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



(This post was edited by Hammer Time on May 10, 2014, 1:41 PM)


toolman0007
User

May 10, 2014, 3:08 PM

Post #16 of 28 (3875 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  

the crown vic 4.6 has 4 converters which dump into a single pipe. that looks like a small h. to change it to duel it takes two pipes and one muffler. a large H pipe with balance tube one muffler and one tail pipe no changes in converter configuration at all. there will be no changes in the exhaust in this install. other than going to duels, they are factory fit parts and require no change in converters even the 02 censers all 4 0f them are before the H pipe . the only modification would be in the length of the tail pipe from muffler to where it goes over the Axel and what might stick out the sides in the back. it will not effect anything the computer reads from the o2 censers. and the converter pipes will remain intact with no changes or alterations to them


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

May 10, 2014, 3:16 PM

Post #17 of 28 (3874 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  

Some people will look at black and think it's while all their life. Not worth the effort.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



toolman0007
User

May 11, 2014, 1:02 AM

Post #18 of 28 (3864 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  

well everyone is entitled to there opinion, even if it is wrong. Nothing is ever accomplished with out effort and a vision to make it happen. again no disrespect, but I'm done with your negative input and with your view of what can and what can not be done.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

May 11, 2014, 1:36 AM

Post #19 of 28 (3863 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  

You'll be done when the state of NY tells you to leave your mess at home in your garage and off the highways.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



nickwarner
Veteran / Moderator
nickwarner profile image

May 11, 2014, 8:43 PM

Post #20 of 28 (3845 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  


In Reply To
although I do see a trip to DMV to get the required certification that nothing has been tampered with, cause the first time I go for inspection they may go WTF.


No, they are going to just stamp it as tampered with and illegal.

So far in this thread you have not even been able to successfully spell integrating, sensors, manner, accept, specs, axle, or affect. I can only imagine at that level what this vehicle will end up as.

I've seen a few "projects" by various body guys over the years. My advice is stick to what you are good at. Make it look pretty. Leave the engines to the engine people. You are about to spend a lot of money blindly thinking that this is going to pass NY inspection yet you admit they will do a double take on it. They will do a double take because of the exact law HT cited here. Your friends with vintage Mustangs were able to get by because the things they installed were originally offered as factory options. Therefore they can be considered factory items. But a 4.6 out of a Panther platform was never offered from factory for a Ranger. Its apples and oranges in your comparison.

You started off this thread thinking you had a 3.4 in this. Come on, if you don't even know what motor is in your truck you don't have any business trying a swap. This is a lot more integrated than you think. Multiple modules need to talk to each other through the vehicle and they need to be VIN compatible. Remember the "cencers" you were talking about? Thats just the tip of the iceberg. Try Flash programming when there is no compatible program between modules that were never made to interface on a complex wiring system that is night and day from each other. Just making it work correctly is a feat, only to get shut down at the DMV.

Part out the Vic and get what money you can. If you really want to waste money on a baby truck like a Ranger then feel free. If you Frankenstein this together despite good advice, well, its your money down the toilet bowl.


toolman0007
User

May 12, 2014, 12:40 AM

Post #21 of 28 (3834 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  

Nickwarner... one didn't really care what was it the ranger as far as the motor goes, if I had taken the time to look, yep I may have known. but I didn't CARE i bought the truck based on body and frame condition. when it arrived at the house it got covered and I have not looked at it since. next weekend it gets totally gutted, front clip off motor and trans gone dash out, and all wiring removed.as none of it is needed, other than just lighting system. LOL 2nd spelling , my self I tend to pay attention to whats being presented, instead of checking for grammar or spelling, I may miss spell words but at least I know the meanings of them. you say stick to what I am good at , making it look "PRETTY", I'm A stickler for detail and have the ability of going way beyond PRETTY. and I am not the first to take on such a project as this. I have a brother that has a 95 s10 with a full blown v8 air ride suspension, and so much more, much of the components are not what came from the factory, he has had the truck for may years and it is street Legal and is legally registered through NY state. and fully meets all emission and safety standards. as I stated I will be documenting this little venture, and as they say the proof is in the pudding. I am fully aware of the complexity of this undertaking, and have way more understanding of it than what you may think. and that's all I'm going to say.


re-tired
Veteran / Moderator
re-tired profile image

May 13, 2014, 4:08 PM

Post #22 of 28 (3807 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  

one problem your gonna have is the speed input from the rear axle , which is calculated by the ecm based on gear ratio . another one of those non eng harness inputs .If you do get it to run , most likely it will be in limp in mode, and wont be able to pull a greasy string out of a cats ass.


LIFE'S SHORT GO FISH


nickwarner
Veteran / Moderator
nickwarner profile image

May 13, 2014, 8:55 PM

Post #23 of 28 (3805 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  

Also, your cat will hate you for trying.


toolman0007
User

Jul 28, 2014, 4:59 PM

Post #24 of 28 (3530 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  

well a little up date on this motor swap, every things out of the crown Vic and that car is gone to the bone yard.
motor, trans, and complete wire harness, and every thing that it was connected too. still in the old dash at the moment. every thing else is labeled, so I can go through it and remove what is not needed. got the ranger in the garage today. just have to remove core support, welded in but have to replace anyways. then it's just trans mount and motor mounts, hook it and pull it. wiring is going to be a cake walk. no abs, and all speed sensing is done right at the transmission. god I love the way fords set up their wiring. should be test fitting the 4.6 with in the next week.


GC
User
GC profile image

Jul 29, 2014, 2:51 AM

Post #25 of 28 (3523 views)
  post locked   Re: motor swaping  

lolol Sorry Im way late on this thread but I had to give re-tired props for that comment. Never heard that expression before.


____________________________________________________
Willing to help, willing to learn... Rob






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