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Changing Trans Fluid on a 2000 Dodge Neon
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kingjim9
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May 21, 2010, 5:59 PM
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Changing Trans Fluid on a 2000 Dodge Neon
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Hey guys I have a 2000 dodge neon 2.0L with 89 k miles on it. I was doing a little once over on the vehicle today and noticed the trans fluid was a light brown color, and figured it should be changed pretty soon. I've only own the vehicle for the past 16 k miles and when I bought it I was told the trans fluid was changed at approx 68-70k miles.
It really doesn't look like this transmission fluid is that new but who really knows, and I figured it couldn't hurt to change it anyways.
I was just planning on dropping the pan and replacing the filter & gasket, and figured I'd post here to see if you guys have any tips or advice for me before I start the service?
Whats a good way to remove all of the old gasket?...I've never changed transmission fluid before but I've done rear differentials and just used a RTV seal for it so I figured I would be able to manage a trans fluid change.
Any tips and advice will be appreciated!
Thanks.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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May 22, 2010, 2:40 PM
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Re: Changing Trans Fluid on a 2000 Dodge Neon
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Bet you'll get different answers to this which is fine. I would drop pan, and catch all fluid. More may come out when filter is replaced. This is not the total system capacity but may be 1/3 to 1/2 of what the entire system holds. If you want all new fluid I suggest sending the job out as I don't think you can drain the torque converter on many.
Clean of gasket with a "gasket scraper" which is really just a putty type tool sharpened at an angle. If it's tough to remove they sell gasket remover which may help. Clean the pan like you could eat out of it. If an alloy pan be very careful with scraping off gasket if needed at all - some may just fall right off clean.
It punched sheet metal pan check with a straight edge that the bolts haven't distorted the metal. In that type when bolts are overtightened the pan warps and only if the plain metal type you can ball peen the holes back to position with a block of wood protecting pan edge. Do NOT hammer or try to adjust an alloy/aluminum pan if used!
I don't like regular RTV and none is used OE, TMK. Still, to hold gasket in place I will use a smear of "Permatex" gasket maker as a slight adhesive and let fully dry. Use old spark plugs or whatever to hold gasket centered over holes.
The gasket maker (not the adhesive stuff) is only needed to hold gasket in place and usually replacement gaskets will have holes smaller than the bolts which can be pushed thru in advance and stay there.
MEASURE WHAT AMOUNT OF FLUID CAME OUT! Add one pint less than that back in and check, check, check level after shifting in place thru all gears. Dipstick may say two levels, one for cold and one for warmed up. Get low in the safe zone and go drive it and check again on level ground to fill to proper level.
Some gaskets will shrink down (squish down) so I suggest tightening first in staggered pattern. Wait and do again. Not much more than a touch tighter than a screwdriver should do. Spec may be listed and use a torque wrench if you aren't sure. Re check them in a day of use and that should be it.
You aren't changing all the fluid with that way so color will improve but won't be plain pink/red when mixed in. Note the color after mixed. Check later and if dark or darker again that's not a good sign. Light brown I've seen go a while. Dark brown to really burnt it's near always overhaul time,
T
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kingjim9
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May 23, 2010, 6:35 PM
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Re: Changing Trans Fluid on a 2000 Dodge Neon
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Yeah I figured there would be people out there with a bunch of different opinions on this, it looks like none of them came out though! I guess my biggest worry with this would be dropping the pan and finding the mating surface distorted or distorting it myself by attempting to remove the gasket.
Another option I thought of is what if I were to just take it somewhere and get new fluid put in with a fluid exchanger machine going through the dipstick. The filter wouldn't get replaced this way though thats the only draw back. What do you think of this? how bad do you think it would be to not replace the filter if I go this way? +
Edit: Also what kind of degreaser (if any) should I use to clean the pan?
Thanks.
(This post was edited by kingjim9 on May 23, 2010, 6:38 PM)
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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May 23, 2010, 7:08 PM
Post #4 of 14
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Re: Changing Trans Fluid on a 2000 Dodge Neon
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My opinion is definitely use the fluid exchanger. You don't need to worry about the filter. it's just a screen anyway. If your filter is plugged up, then it's too late for that tranny anyways. It's much more important to get all the fluid replaced. You don't have to go through the dipstick. Those machine tap into the cooler lines. Just make sure they use the right fluid. It has to have ATF+4 or a synthetic equivalent. Adding an additive to Dexron does not make it the correct fluid.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Sidom
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May 23, 2010, 7:56 PM
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Re: Changing Trans Fluid on a 2000 Dodge Neon
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Tom & HT pretty much summed it up........The best thing is to do a complete exchange....Whether you change the filter or not is up to you. Just because you've got it hooked up to an exchange machine doesn't mean you can't change the filter, it just cost a little more. It's actually easier using the machine cuz you can drain the pan before removing it...
I suppose dropping the pan is better than nothing but you're just adding new fluid to old. The pan holds 4 qts which you removed but the converter holds anywhere from 6 to 8qts you aren't removing.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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May 24, 2010, 4:25 AM
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Re: Changing Trans Fluid on a 2000 Dodge Neon
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kingjim9 - Everyone is correct and the differences come from experiences over a lot of time and situations.
Quote ">> I guess my biggest worry with this would be dropping the pan and finding the mating surface distorted or distorting it myself by attempting to remove the gasket.<<"
The distortion problem comes from overtightening on the plain stamped metal type pans. Cleaning/scraping if needed at all isn't usually the cause of that. I don't know what pan is used and might be either the plain metal or an alloy which are treated differently. As luck would have it, if I said I was sure it was one it would be the other
True IMO: If filter is clogged it's over for that trans anyway.
Flushing: We are going to disagree on that. I won't allow it on any of my own! You are possibly pushing junk where it doesn't want to be. When you drop a pan it will have some filings (small) and some grey like mud that finally was not suspended by the fluid and settled. You would want to wipe that all out with disposable towels as best you can. Then I like to use "Westleys" white wall tire cleaner and steel wool. Then soap and water rinse and let dry.
Replacement gaskets can be of assorted types. A mix of cork and a rubber, just a rubber type product or a stiffer mix of material. The softer ones will want re-torquing after initial tightening - perhaps twice. That can all be skipped by loading it up with RTV which itself can become a problem so this shouldn't be rushed but is all the time out there. In biz you can't take all day to do this without the space to just leave a vehicle and do something else while things dry nor would a customer be too thrilled at coming back in a few day to a week to retorque the gasket so this is wide open to dispute of approach.
There are different pans and gaskets so one suggestion isn't going to fit all. What would be nice is if there was a trans pan exchange where it was clean and ready to install with gasket ready to go for a one time shot at it. Trans pans should (but don't) all have drain plugs. I install them when practical and possible.
ATF: Absolutely the correct type approved for the vehicle. I prefer synthetics that clearly state approved for the application.
Key properties of ATF are high detergency, anti-foaming agents and resistance to heat which makes a sticky shallac where moving parts can become slow and cause early failure.
Auto transmissions have a life expectancy that isn't indefinate as it has wearing parts. You can extend that with care quite a bit but in time and or miles the grim reaper will get it eventually
T
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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May 24, 2010, 8:56 AM
Post #8 of 14
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Re: Changing Trans Fluid on a 2000 Dodge Neon
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Smile - I think you are right. Forgive me as I obviously don't own one and I would LOVE to enable a trans line to just replace what it took in right on time till new fluid was seen and I think that's among the idea of some of them.
What scares the poo out of me is that many perfectly fine transmissions have junk that collected on bottom of pan but just normal amount harmlessly out of the way. I wouldn't want that blown thru the trans again so down comes the pan as I said. Seems from new the trans will make some mess just breaking in if you will. Next service unless there's a problem it isn't there. Hence my drain plugs and some aren't going to get them if they would be hit by speed bumps that's a no go.
Ones I can do the drain plug I just re-change the approx 1/3 of the fluid a few times which is kind of changing it almost completely by dilution of new. I like dropping the pans at least once as some have magnets in them that can be cleaned and don't laugh too hard but the "bobber" like for fishing when the trans was new before assembly that gets knocked into pan when dipstick is installed was just there to plug the hole till car was put together.
Gawd - I've been "retired" since before this subject car was built but the engine and idea of it was around long before. Yes I still do stuff for family and select friends with assorted vehicles.
Except for the first few years I was a "Sole Proprietor" and knew folks and their driving habits so suggestions for what to do when changed even within that group,
T
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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May 24, 2010, 10:13 AM
Post #9 of 14
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Re: Changing Trans Fluid on a 2000 Dodge Neon
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These machines are for "preventative maintanence". If you have a pan full of gunk, It really shouldn't be seeing any new fluid by either method. It's the new fluid that initiates all the failures, not the method of changing it.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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kingjim9
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May 24, 2010, 5:58 PM
Post #10 of 14
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Re: Changing Trans Fluid on a 2000 Dodge Neon
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Yeah I know how putting new fluid into an already "dead" trans will just cause it to fail instantally, that happened to a buddy of mind on a car he got used. As far as my transmission is concerned the fluid doesn't look terrible, I mean I've seen alot worse, It's just a light brown color and doesn't have a bad smell or anything from it. I wiped the dipstick down with a white paper towel and took a picture of it, here's the link:
http://img232.imageshack.us/...32/1579/1000083b.jpg
What do you guys think? I was told the transmission fluid was changed just a little bit before 70k miles, it has just under 89k miles on it now. But I don't have any records of any service that was performed before I got the vehicle.
What if I drop the pan clean it out real good, change the filter & gasket, then fill it up, put like 500 or so miles on it, then take it somewhere to use a fluid exhanger to get all of the fluid replaced from it and the torque converter. What do you think of that plan?
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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May 24, 2010, 6:04 PM
Post #11 of 14
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Re: Changing Trans Fluid on a 2000 Dodge Neon
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That plan would be fine although I don't know what there is to gain by changing the filter unless you have a pan leak now. It certainly won't hurt unless you cause a leak in the process.
As I said earlier, if the filter is actually dirty, the tranny is already gone but with the history you described, I wouldn't anticipate a problem. Just smell the fluid first. If it doesn't smell burnt, you should be fine..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on May 24, 2010, 6:04 PM)
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kingjim9
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May 26, 2010, 8:15 PM
Post #12 of 14
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Re: Changing Trans Fluid on a 2000 Dodge Neon
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Tom: What kind of Permatex would you suggest to hold the gasket to the pan? Should it be one of the ones that say oil resistant like "Permatex Ultra Black Oil Resistant Silicone Gasket Maker" or doesn't it really matter?
Also something I was considering was getting a new pan that has a drain plug for it to make future services easier. I was looking at advance and AZ but they just have OE ones without a drain plug. Do you have any suggestions as to where I might want to look to find one that has a train plug? (this is something I'm probably not going to do just because, i probably woln't want to spend the extra money on something that's not essential)
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Sidom
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May 26, 2010, 10:12 PM
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Re: Changing Trans Fluid on a 2000 Dodge Neon
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The rule of thumb with tranny gaskets is/was use no sealer at all. Most gaskets will have a few small holes in the gasket at the corners that the bolt will push thru and hold the gasket in place....... Chry kinda blew that theory outta the water..... Most of their trans come with sealer only & no gasket......lmao
HT is correct on the process, there is no extra pressue applied. All an exchange machine is, is box with two 24 qt tanks, a scale, a pump and a few soleniods....The trans pumps fluid out itself thru one line, the machine measures that and adds the same amount of new fluid in the other line....I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to "okie" one up.....
I'm thinking an electric fuel pump, jumper box, 4' of 3/8 fuel line, two 5 gal gas cans...... I didn't think that out loud did I?????? shweee....that's good....scared me for a sec.....you know how my mind wanders
As said tranny services are maintenance only.....If you have any shifting problems, it's already too late, not say that it won't help for the short run but it's just delaying the inevitable..... And yes servicing can sometimes kill trannys...... Years ago when I worked at Aamco we had special clean drain containers for inspections..... On the bad ones, if the work was declined, the old fluid went back in. Trans fluid has additives that help the clutch packs grip better. Old fluid loses this ability and you get a little slippage and I guess the clutch packs get "use to it" for lack of a better way of saying it..... You put new fluid in where it engages quick and strong & it can just rip those old clutches apart..... Seen that happen a few times....... It never was recieved very well.....Always had to be "something" the shop did wrong... Couldn't of been waiting a 100k for the 1st service.
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Tom Greenleaf
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May 26, 2010, 11:00 PM
Post #14 of 14
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Re: Changing Trans Fluid on a 2000 Dodge Neon
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Permatex is a hoot. They market the same product in different colors so you need to read each one carefully. For gasket I stick them in place with this stuff for holding it more than for making a gasket as the name reads. It should be as little as does the trick and fully dry. Car makers don't call for any gasket cements for many items. Some that's all you can do like for rear differential covers.
This stuff will stick gasket to a clean pan, cover, housing. I really don't want a ton of this or uncured stuff squeezing into trans, oil, cooling systems etc. Let it dry/cure. I'll choose either another smear for surface to trans, engine, gear-case or what the job is or again just a smear of the oil for item or smear of silicone grease just so if and or when you go back there's no more gasket scraping.
It's vehicle dependent just how you approach what. This takes forever to clean, check, let dry - mostly waiting time and busy shops can't just let things sit so it's not a way practical for most. THIS IS NOT THE ADHESIVE SEALANT - RTV! It's great too for other things but I don't care for it for gaskets. Read which one is suitable on package. Oil resistance is what you want for most uses. Plain gasket shellac (brown molasses like stuff) was a standby for ages - has neat uses as thread sealer and except for exhaust heat items is useful but once heated created a scraping nightmare to remove that gasket later. Some techs just use grease or if you have surface perfectly prepared nothing at all.
Miniscule imperfections it will solve. When there are major flaws they need be fixed IMO - don't like to just gunk them up with goo and run away from the trouble if present.
I do this work once and there's so much less work later if done right once. I've had good luck getting 200k out of many automatic transmissions. Then if the car is worth a damn and you want more life just overhaul it. You can't extend the life of one indefinitely IMO. Again IMO the life of them is as much or more in how you drive then changing fluid in them. If exposed to high heat, trailering, hard driving habits they go quicker. Then there's just lousy luck and one day it's gone without notice or reason??
The Permatex package I'm thinking of will look much like this. I think same properties are in one that's grey in color too........
Good luck with what you decide to do. Just "Measure twice, cut once" as they say,
T
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