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Automatic Gearbox Inconsistent Reverse Gear
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RyanK
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Oct 29, 2016, 4:11 PM
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Automatic Gearbox Inconsistent Reverse Gear
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1989 Toyota Hiace 2.8 Automatic Diesel. Milage is low, around 100,000km.
The automatic tranmission sometimes won't engage reverse, more often when the vehicle is hot and typically when I'm facing downhill and really need reverse. When I rev the engine, it occasionally clicks into gear but very occasionally it won't, at which point I shift into Drive and then back to Reverse, give it a rev and sometimes it will click in. Once or twice after long drives I've had to wait until the whole thing has cooled down before reverse worked again.
I need to change the ATF anyway as it's a dirty brown colour, and I do get the AT Oil Temp Light showing pretty quickly on motorways. My question is this: How likely is it that the oil change will fix my problem with intermittent reverse? Is it more likely that the transmission is on it's way out and I will need an expensive service, or more expensive replacement?
(This post was edited by RyanK on Oct 29, 2016, 4:13 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Oct 30, 2016, 10:34 AM
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Re: Automatic Gearbox Inconsistent Reverse Gear
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Welcome: Our resident trans guy isn't here for the moment but can say the fluid color and any issue isn't a promising sign of anything but an overhaul especially a hot warning and the color of ATF.
For now till he comes by do make sure it's just full to proper level and see if that helps at all.
Just BTW - I don't think they sold this version of Toyota to the US where site is based so specific info could be tough but think this being an 89 will be more generic however surprised it has an ATF temp light that long ago?
Tom
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RyanK
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Oct 30, 2016, 11:04 AM
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Hi admittedly it's a Japanese model originally. The uk tends to import a lot of cars from Japan as they drive on the left there too. I can't see it being much different from Toyotas in the US of a similar age. I believe this one has the same engine and transmission of a couple of US models, but I saw it somewhere and can't remember where so I can't give much more info than that in that respect.
I'm either gonna change the oil twice (with a bit of a wait in between changes), as I've heard that's the next best thing in terms of flushing it. However it's very likely this thing has never had it's ATF changed, so I might take it to a mechanic and get them to flush the torque converter manually, change the filter, and give the magnets a clean. I simply don't have the tools to get that done. I'm seriously hoping it will fix the issue, and if anyone has had a similar problem before, even if it's with a non-toyota automatic, and what they did to fix it.
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Hammer Time
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Oct 30, 2016, 11:41 AM
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Don't be surprised if that accelerates it's demise.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Oct 30, 2016, 11:48 AM
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Quoting you from first post>>"more often when the vehicle is hot and typically when I'm facing downhill and really need reverse.<<"
That's why I asked if fluid was full. If an extreme angle all the fluid rushes to one end and if low can't pick up any or enough - do rule that out before doing much of anything.
General consensus is when fluid is dark and burned even with an odor that it's burnt new fluid + filter may help or speed up total demise wearing out faster as things will begin to clean up even just a pan drop and averages 1/3rd of the total capacity. Does let you see how trashed it looks inside anyway.
The US vs UK models can differ totally even though Toyota makes vehicles for almost everywhere to that country's allowances and demand. Euro vehicles are much more apt to use a diesel than the US if only cost of fuel and expected economy or MPG plus many might last longer arguable for personal vehicles.
L or R hand drive would only change how or where some linkages and things are placed - maybe?
What you could do is see if you can come up with a model # for the trans (gearbox) could help.
Careful spending too much money on this as of right now if fluid is full I think you are in trouble,
Tom
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RyanK
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Oct 30, 2016, 2:14 PM
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Thanks for the input to this point guys, much appreciated!
When you and hammertime talk about it accelerating the decline, would that be because it could increase clutch slippage by moving suspended metal in the fluids that's causing the clutch plates to grip?
Such as this guy mentions when he talks about the burnt fluid?
https://youtu.be/yb_1wbiPz9g?t=81
As for the fluid levels, I did check them, when it's cold it seems very high, but once the engine has been running about 5 or 10 minutes it seems to be at the correct level. It is very brown, although nowhere near as bad as the brown fluid in that video! Mine is dark brown but nowhere near that viscous.
I believe the part number is A45DL, don't know if that helps!
(This post was edited by RyanK on Oct 30, 2016, 3:48 PM)
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Hammer Time
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Oct 30, 2016, 2:55 PM
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Re: Automatic Gearbox Inconsistent Reverse Gear
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When transmissions are ready to let go they build up a sludge of clutch material. This sludge actually helps to seal pressure in used up rubber seal. New fluid has detergent and washes away these seals. I've seen many transmission drive into the shop and not back out after a fluid change.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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RyanK
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Oct 30, 2016, 3:43 PM
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hmmm.. interesting. Well unfortunately all I can do is change the fluid, it may get worse but as it is it's certainly not in a condition ready to make the 3000 mile drive I have coming up in about a month. If it breaks down during that journey it will be a lot worse for me, and probably the whole transmission.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Oct 30, 2016, 6:59 PM
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No break down is any fun no matter why. I strongly suggest you find another vehicle than this for going very far at all let alone 3,000 miles! You have strong warnings now never mind the other 100,000 things that can go wrong,
Tom
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RyanK
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Oct 31, 2016, 12:15 AM
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That isn't possible. I have to take this vehicle. It's made the journey twice before, so I was looking for advice on the issue really, rather than warnings about not making a journey or finding alternatives.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Oct 31, 2016, 1:17 AM
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Quoting you again ">>"As for the fluid levels, I did check them, when it's cold it seems very high, but once the engine has been running about 5 or 10 minutes it seems to be at the correct level.<<"
Reads too full at first! That's now a wild warning! High chance it can't pick up fluid from the pan because it's so full at the filter of assorted debris not normal debris but from real damage then when warmed enough get circulated that it lowers your reading by dipstick.
You say it's "impossible" not to take the vehicle on a 3,000 mile trip soon.
Think: No vehicle new or not assures you make any trip. Where would you like to get towed from and the problem right in you face, vehicle doesn't move anymore at all? Away from a home base or far away then what would you do?
I'm not here to tell you what to do and you didn't ask for the warnings but they are staring your in the face right now that this trans is worn enough to warrant a total overhaul now and when apart then find out if it's even a core that's "re-buildable" at all - yet to know till apart.
If the worst case scenario you don't make your destination and don't even get it fixed for quite some time and no responsible shop/garage/repair place is going to suggest anything but the most repair possible up to an already re-built unit or all new parts - availability now in question totally.
You've also already said you've had to wait for it to cool down to move at all now!
While this isn't moving it's probably trying to which is why fluid is hot and burning it with color both worn parts and too hot for the fluid to tolerate is still the #1 transmission killer low miles or not count age also.
No - I personally do not know exact reason why it did this just that this is the result which keeps transmission shops in business.
Here - US that is almost all over it: Many full repair shops do not do their own transmission work on site but rather send it out in whole or part as it's own specialty which it is OR refuse the work totally and suggest you find a place that can take it on.
So - changing the fluid and filter now like in that rather basic (don't believe everything you see out there) video you don't know if you cause it to fail quickly or that it helped. Either way I wouldn't trust it if that worked or stress out a new rebuild job with 3,000 mile trip right away!
Speak for myself in many years - decades of repairs of all sorts and intense training of all aspects of major vehicle repair including manual and automatic transmissions both and do one of each or fail the course!
Sorry for the novel. Transmissions are not unfamiliar to me just didn't do them on site in whole to take up a space for an unknown time to gather all correct parts and tools.
Site's specialist totally does transmission work and wish he would chime in this now long thread partly my fault and sorry for that but it needs understanding.
This vehicle by age alone with no apparent problems is a lousy risk for a long trip/journey as you put it. If mine would get a couple days of check and services done to even think about it.
Think again about how much this will cost you (not just money) for a breakdown away from home base and still not make it to destination and back. Your call you've been warned by me - other's can have different opinions on this,
Tom
PS: BTW - bet between Mr. Hammer Time and myself we have close to 100 years of automotive experience which will vary naturally some but not so much on what can happen and what the fixes really are........*
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Oct 31, 2016, 1:25 AM)
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RyanK
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Oct 31, 2016, 4:43 AM
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That isn't possible. I have to take this vehicle. It's made the journey twice before, so I was looking for advice on the issue really, rather than warnings about not making a journey or finding alternatives. You asked for advice and our advice is that it is highly likely this transmission will not survive the trip.
Well I wasn't really asking about the trip, or how putting new fluid in it could accelerate it's decline, but these do point me at the fact that you suspect a more expesive fix like a transmission service/rebuild/replacement is the way I'm gonna have to go, so thanks.
That's all I really wanted, someone with a lot of experience with gearboxes who has probably seen this type of problem before, to give me their thoughts on the problem and how best to proceed.
However there are still other factors at play. Perhaps the gearbox isn't wrecked. Perhaps the cooler for the ATF has been rigged up wrong (I've read of it happening) and the oil has simply overheated and burnt. Perhaps the filter is simply clogged from years of dust and gunk that's come in from the overflow valve and it can't generate the hydraulic pressure to engage reverse until I give the engine a bit of a rev. In both of these situations a change of fluid might actually fix any issues I'm having right now. Sure the thing will need additional work to ensure it doesn't happen again, but I believe your very short blanket statements don't really give me the confidence to feel I've investigated this enough.
Perhaps I wasn't detailed enough in my first post. But knowing that you don't really think it'll survive the trip (hell I don't either, which is why I was originally asking!) doesn't help me get to the bottom of what the problem could be caused by, and how difficult and expensive it will be to fix. No matter what happens the ATF can't stay as it is, so perhaps it would be better to try just a change of the oil first, and then if that's ok, try a change of oil and filter with a flush of the torque converter and a clean of the magnets. Perhaps I'm better leaving the fluid in there an making a trip to a gearbox specialist (only good one I've found is 7 hours away) and get them to try rebuilding it. Perhaps rebuilds aren't very effective and I'll probably need to replace it. I just don't know! Hence why I came to a site I thought I would be able to discuss it.
(This post was edited by RyanK on Oct 31, 2016, 5:14 AM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Oct 31, 2016, 6:01 AM
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For the moment this is by myself and Hammer Time (AKA we call HT here) with no possible reason to mislead you on the effectiveness or curative chances of changing out transmission fluid and filter.
Then you brought up a pretty hard trip - it all matters.
gsferraro << Might just click and look for the spot for a private message. A reason is he (calls himself Gary) does this all the time with a shop full of this stuff all the time such that his time here "volunteering" also isn't always easy for him.
You count - this matters. We are volunteers with nothing to gain with incorrect suggestions.
The two issues are when it doesn't move it's heating up and wearing itself out if the thing was brand new.
All money aside we've now both said it IS NOT UP TO A TRIP even if it felt OK with some tricks I'm adding. Now will suggest because it's a very low mile, 1989 that you don't even waste time right now fooling with it and plain give the OK for a shop to get started on rebuilding this right now and no loss IMO at all if the thing is any good you then own a better vehicle then without this nightmare lurking.
So, GET CREDIBLE other advise with a strong concentration on "CREDIBLE" from a real tech/mechanic on your own - couldn't stop you anyway.
It would ruin my day to hear that you didn't make it or it just didn't work to change out fluid already said that's a wild gamble and with added info from YOU it's not gambling now. This transmission/gearbox is super unlikely to make a trip.
Final advise already said above is just do it up with full repair or replacement right now before this trip. I would if mine anyway without the trip with what you've said.
Very truly not here to mislead you,
Tom
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Oct 31, 2016, 6:02 AM)
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RyanK
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Oct 31, 2016, 6:30 AM
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Hey Tom, I'm very sorry if I appeared to suggest that I thought any of the information was misleading. I know that isn't the case, and I appreciate the time that anyone takes to reply. I definitely didn't think you or HT were misleading me for kicks or some nefarious reason.
I just wanted a little bit more info and HT's one liners did seem a bit dismissive, but you have very kindly cleared that up anyway. At no point did I ever mean to imply I couldn't trust you guys.
The problem for me is that the nearest decent mechanic is a 7 hour drive away so no matter what happens, I'll either have to arrange a costly transport of the vehicle (cost of this in europe is extortionate) or drive it there. I'm thinking perhaps I'll change at least some of the oil and hopefully that will get me to the mechanic for a rebuild. All the drive gears seem fine, it's only occasionally reverse doesn't want it until I give it a rev or change out and then in to reverse.
(This post was edited by RyanK on Oct 31, 2016, 6:32 AM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Oct 31, 2016, 6:56 AM
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I'm the well know "VERBOSE" one here both fault and attempt at being complete.
Do what you have to do to get this taken care of PRIOR to any longer than this now 7 hour trip. Totally understood things cost more all around. I can't know how fast places can work or if used parts (hard parts not available new) would be to obtain. Perhaps a plain phone call to this place would really help.
Refresh: The damage is already done. Anything you do can only be a patch is where I'm coming from.
Very much like a crystal ball (we've joked at the site about that) I can see what's happening. It's got a clogged filter now alone means too much debris and caput for that trans as lack of pumping fluid around wears 1,000 to 1 and slips, burning hot so you see hot ATF warning and vehicle doesn't even move! Yikes! It's only working at all because now it gets so hot it's so thin (ATF) it can pass thru the filter - the guess.
Refresh again: So changing filter and part fluid it may work right away quite well but quickly be its demise is likely but not for sure. Nothing is that sure.
Good luck. I mean it. Be ready for surprises as best you can with high hopes this issue is behind you as easily as it can be for you,
Tom
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RyanK
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Oct 31, 2016, 7:58 AM
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Thanks again Tom. You keep mentioning that the thing doesn't move - I'm afraid I don't know what you mean. What doesn't move? The van? Cos that moves fine forwards, and backwards also fine one it actually engages the gear! Or do you mean a part in the actual transmission itself?
But thanks for all your thoughts so far, it's nice to get another person's insight about it, nobody I know knows anything about cars!
(This post was edited by RyanK on Oct 31, 2016, 8:18 AM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Oct 31, 2016, 8:31 AM
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Quote you ">>Once or twice after long drives I've had to wait until the whole thing has cooled down before reverse worked again.<<"
From top post. If it wouldn't move at all this was just in reverse now looking back (my mistake for minor point) then it really means the same.
You near certainly just don't feel that pressure is so low it's slipping in forward gears as well. The wear of normal wearing parts would be very slow if pressure was up and the hard parts (drums and such) also wear usually not as fast much like the friction material of a brake and the metal parts only this is wet with ATF so the tolerance of wear is microns not so dramatic to see like a brake.
You can't really know that well until it's apart is what I'm saying as it's out of sight but you are in the evidence of risk area.
Begs the question of how long after trying something or even a total overhaul do you have to drive it to trust it again? I can't answer that one?
I wouldn't head out on a trip right away with several types of freshly done work nor even most brand new cars unproven what just might be not quite right.
New, used or fixed there's a limit to what you can know for sure which isn't much. Stuff happens without warnings or neglect or anything done improperly.
Objective is to avoid what you can avoid ahead of time and be ready for the surprises,
Tom
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RyanK
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Oct 31, 2016, 12:32 PM
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Hey thanks for all the info, good info!
Unfortunately for me I'll be taking the trip in the van regardless, I simply have no choice. I have no other vehicle or method of transport as I need to get to a pretty remote area with a whole load of equipment. I'm going for work. If a break down I have breakdown recovery that I'll just have to rely on. If the worst thing happens and the van simply won't go anywhere, I'll have to get the van towed and fly without all the equipment I need, but it's kinda unavoidable.
Even if I had the money to replace the whole transmission, and pay for it to be fitted, I've had a look online and finding a transmission of the model I require outside of Russia is somewhat difficult.
Guess it's not looking that good for me! Bloody vehicle has barely done 90,000 kms (one of the reasons I thought I'd be ok to buy it), although the van is 16 years old!
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RyanK
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Oct 31, 2016, 12:35 PM
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Oh and strange Tom, the message you posted at Oct 31, 2016, 1:17 AM I've only just seen! I swear I didn't see it earlier - I only saw HT's reply!
EDIT: Well that's embarrassing, if I'd seen your message and I was HT I wouldn't have felt the need to write any more either. So my apologies HT for saying you were being curt, if I had seen Tom's message prior to yours, I would have understood why nothing more was necessary.
(This post was edited by RyanK on Oct 31, 2016, 12:40 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Oct 31, 2016, 1:11 PM
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No guesses on that and sorry. My service can be slow so appear but time's sent are when then arrived here not always when I sent them. I should be set to GMT minus 5 hours or Eastern Daylight Time, US same as HT. Your view may show your time sent - site isn't always correct but shows in date/time order to me?
Now this is up to you and always was with the "opinions" of what is most likely. Nothing more I can add except to wish you luck and no breakdowns! Tom
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Oct 31, 2016, 1:15 PM)
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Hammer Time
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Oct 31, 2016, 1:58 PM
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We all have our own styles. Mine happens t be short and direct. That doesn't make me any less accurate. I'm just not one for doing a lot of typing. That's Tom's job.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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RyanK
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Oct 31, 2016, 2:21 PM
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That's cool thanks to both of you for the time you've taken to write to me, I do appreciate the sharing of knowledge, and everything written. Particularly Tom, who let's face it, has taken a lot of his time to answer me in detail, and for that I'm very grateful! For someone with literally zero automatic transmission experience, it really has been invaluable.
I've found a garage much closer for a general service which it needs anyway. This garage says they have another garage which they farm out transmission work to. This gives me a bit of confidence, as a garage wouldn't farm out to another company if the work was bad, as that in turn would make the first garage look bad. I'm currently in the process of finding out if this transmission garage are able to do rebuilds, and if so I'll take it down to them and get an service or inspection done on it, so at least I have some idea of what we're looking at problemwise.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Oct 31, 2016, 3:17 PM
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RyanK - Same goal - to help you out, Tom
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