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Honda Civic 1995 A/C won't work at hot !!
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 3, 2007, 7:46 AM
Post #26 of 37
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Re: Honda Civic 1995 A/C won't work at hot !!
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#1 - Please start a new thread as this one is years old now. A quick read of your problem is that the charge is wrong now and can only be known if charged from empty with exact known weight. As little as 10% off with 134a in particular will mess up performance.
Note: Pressures do NOT indicate how much is in the system! They do indicate problem areas when the known charge is in there. Output temps will not be lower in temp Fahrenheit than the pressure of the low side which is an interesting coincidence for that refrigerant.
Note II: Too much or too little refrigerant WILL kill your compressor. Be warned that the kits sold everywhere are called "death kits" in the trade!
T
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rodrigoscf
User
Nov 3, 2007, 10:35 PM
Post #27 of 37
(7970 views)
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Re: Honda Civic 1995 A/C won't work at hot !!
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Hello! Thanks for your help.
THe problem is that here the shops don't use mass control. They fill with 134a till the system answer: when system starts to cooling, they put a bit more regrigerant and then stop putting it.
I know that my car needs 650g of R-12.
I'll tight the A/C belt as was suggested me and I'll post the results.
I'll need to buy equipments and do the service at home! In shops, or they don't solve my problem or they tell me that everything need to be changed (in this way is easy to repair and get system working...)
I'm coursing Mechanical Engeneering, I might do it well if I get the right equipments.
THanks again for your help.
Rodrigo.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 4, 2007, 2:42 AM
Post #28 of 37
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Re: Honda Civic 1995 A/C won't work at hot !!
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There are a few problems here right out of the gate. This car should have been built using R-134a not R-12. Model year 1993 was the switch year when there were vehicles that could have used either. After that I don't know of any that used R-12 when new.
This is of critical importance because the listed weight of refrigerant is far more important when using 134a than R-12 where it was much easier to charge a system as you described folks did where you are. This car had two listings that were different for the charge -- I found 18oz and 19oz which is essentially the same. Your 650 g times 28 = about 24oz if I did the math right. Go by whatever is listed on a decal underhood whenever there is a discrepancy.
This system doesn't use much refrigerant really so being off by 3-5 oz would be critical for this car. Equipment must be able to charge a system to the correct amount. If you do this yourself you can get a postage grade scale and weigh small 12oz cans with the hose attachment on and get the right amount using common sense. Air cannot be allow into the system at all - not even the minute bit in the hose of guages or the small can tap if used. The system must start in a complete state of vacuum which is over 29hg at sea level or less than 10,000 microns but using either it must be able to hold in state for a good while - perhaps wait 20-30 minutes. Vacuum pumps can be rented for FREE at AutoZone or perhaps several places now with a 100% deposit which could be $400US or so.
Check out and print this site as to what it takes to do this right....
http://www.autoclimas.com/...igerant%20charge.php
This link will send you to AutoClimas.com and on to an A/C site I work at in English or the home site is in Spanish if that helps.
Know that it is illegal to just vent refrigerant knowingly in most countries. R-12 is restricted but still available. Most countries sell 134a without restriction. Canada does restrict it and no doubt others. US does not.
None the less if you just read the link and a bit more here you now know more about charging a system then the shop you mentioned. It isn't like filling a tire with air!!!! YOU MUST START FROM SOMETHING KNOWN WHICH IS LOST NOW WITH THIS CAR SO IT MUST BE CHARGED FROM A VACUUM OR YOU ARE WASTING TIME AND RISKING DESTRUCTION OF VERY EXPENSIVE PARTS OF THE SYSTEM. My guess it that alone will make this sytem work very well. If it doesn't last then a project of leak finding/fixing is in order. Some 65% of all A/C failures are from a leak.
How much of this do you want to take on?
You are on page 2 of this thread which is a problem. It will only be found by folks searching for Honda or something and probably won't be read by others here or just passers by. I can try to move just this part or you can start a new thread of your own or just reply to this and we can move to an A/C only site.
Let me know how I can help. Sure seems like the shop you are using is not the place for help,
T
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rodrigoscf
User
Nov 4, 2007, 7:45 AM
Post #29 of 37
(7957 views)
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Re: Honda Civic 1995 A/C won't work at hot !!
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Hello!
Man! I've learned so many things with your post !!! Now I'm really sure that shops here don't know the right service to do!
First of all, I want to thank you for your atention and for sharing your knowledge with me. It's greatful to see that serious people like you exist.
Backing to A/C...
1. You can put the topic on everywhere that you want to. You can choose where the best place is. You can move to an A/C site only and correct the place of the topic at this forum.
2. 650g = about 23oz. So you was right.
3. You said that my car with 134a takes about 18oz. OK. But my car is R-12 and I'm using 134a. How does the convertion work now? Because the Civic 93 that was made for 134a could have a littler system... I don't know well...
4. The vaccum pump I can find. But the weight meter... I think that it will be hard to find here. Another idea?
5. I phoned a company that sells R-134a. The smallest can comes with 1000g = 35oz. And they dont sell any mass meter.
6. Here in my country, neither shops are able to buy R-12.
7. Everything seems to work ok on my system...
8. I don't know about the expansion valve. I don't know how to know if its working.
9. The compressor is as I told you. Clutch is engaging, car is loosing power, etc.
THINGS THAT I DIDN'T TELL:
10. In cold days, the system cool a lot! I have to put it at minimum. But in IDLE... TOO LITTLE cooling. Almost no cooling at all.
11. The hotline, underhood, is so hot that you cant touch it. If you do, you get your finger burned.
12. The low line only freezes when accel at 2000 RPM. But it isnt as other cars. That water starts to condense in it.
13. Another guy told me to tight the belt. I'll check it soon. What do you thing about it? And how do I know the right tension without a torquimeter?
14. My evaporator was recently cleaned.
15. There's no leak on my system, I'm sure.
Ok. That is what I can remember by now.
Thanks one more time for you help.
And you can move this topic to any place that you consider the best place.
You can move to an A/C site only, and put in the right place here too. The more exposed the topic is, the more viewed it will be.
Thanks.
Rodrigo.
(This post was edited by rodrigoscf on Nov 4, 2007, 7:55 AM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 4, 2007, 10:51 AM
Post #30 of 37
(7949 views)
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93 Honda Civic A/C
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Hi,
This is a total other site on the web that can help you better as it is just for A/C.
http://acsource.net/...644d7d8eeeb77edc058a
I can't really transfer this data so far (the posts you and I have made) to another spot on this site or the other which will require a new sign up but keep your user name there if you do go to that site. If I move this part I may lose everything already said and I don't want that to happen so just keep this here for now. At CarJunky I hit most of the A/C questions and the others are welcome but may not read this far down the whole thread.
Yes you can post anything anywhere here either on purpose or by accident - again I'm just worried about getting this out of order or lost if as even a moderator I'm not sure it will work properly to move this.
So let's understand what is really wrong here. This is a model year 1993 Honda Civic. Any charts I have will be for cars that were sold to the USA and for 1993 I show this car has a system capacity of 22oz of R-12 when new. For the USA they used 134a for the years 1994 and up. This car probably used the parts from the system for R-12 and just used the different refrigerant with only slight changes. 134a can be used in a car made for R-12 and that's called a conversion. It will then take 70-80% of the original recommended amount for R-12 which now would be 15.4oz to 17.6oz would be it's new "sweet" spot for the changeover. A 1994 was listed on a chart for me as taking 18oz which kind of tells you that's just what they did. AGAIN GO BY ANY FACTORY STICKERS/DECALS OR INFO UNDER THE HOOD FOR YOUR CAR. This car could be different than one sold to the USA but probably not much.
It would help if you would tell me what country you are from as even that is a guess because most folks in the US would not refer to the metric #s as you did. No problem - we really are stubborn Americans! You may be an American - I don't know that as there are folks here from every country of the world - period!
Your car probably has been mixed up with the refrigerant used. This can be worked out by using just one or the other and if it's already mixed it all must be removed and start with just one. I would stick with 134a as it's more available and still made new. R-12 is not made new legally but is made in at least Mexico new but who knows if it's really the same product it used to be. Stuff is sold but expensive that has been recovered and purified to behave as new but you need to take a test to be able to buy it. Probably not worth it but you decide.
When you said you were told to tighten you belt that sounds like the car is choking on too much refrigerant and the compressor can't do that without breaking it at some point. There will always be problems if these two refrigerant are mixed now as I said.
I've never seen 134a for sale in 35oz containers here. Should not be a problem as the connectors to containers should be universal. For a scale you could buy a scale at an office supply store used for weighing packages for postage but it should be accurate to 1/2 ounce at least or about 14 grams. You may buy one right now at a store called Staples here or from the US post office on line at www.USPS.com .. Scales made just for A/C would be expensive for your personal use and the ones for weighing your body aren't accurate enough for A/C. You would need one that can hold about 10 pounds at least.
Right now it is clear to me that your system will work properly with just getting the proper amount of refrigerant in it. Your observations so far indicate either too much or too little refrigerant or a mix that just can't work well.
I'm with you friend but you or someone or shop will have to do this right or it will cost a fortune to get it right - sounds like you have a good chance now! Don't worry about the expansion valve as you noted both hot and cold sides so it's working for now. There are different oils used that will move better in the different refrigerants so we have to consider that. It really would be better if you signed up at the site I mentioned above as the techs there are from all over the world and they do have parts and tools you may need but they would be here too and nobody is making you buy stuff but it's available. Most of the time it's better to just buy locally to where you are. Refrigerants can be shipped but most don't like to do that as it is a compressed gas.
Hit back and let's get a summary of just what the problems are now and the history of what has happened so far to this car. Right now I'm so full of these questions I need to know more about the situation, available help for you which seems limited and if you are willing to spend perhaps a couple hundred bucks US dollars to do this yourself,
T
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rodrigoscf
User
Nov 4, 2007, 12:17 PM
Post #31 of 37
(4680 views)
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Re: 93 Honda Civic A/C
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Hello!
Now I'm more hopeful !!! 
I'll subscribe to the other site for sure, but a little bit later. I'm quite busy now.
Some issues:
- I'm from Brazil. My car has a plate under the hood "Made in Japan" And the manual says that my car is USA Version. (it's an imported car here)
- I went to a shop few days ago to check the refrigerant. THe shop man made vaccum on the system, but only for 2 minutes and then put refrigerant R-134a. (( That was already made when I bought the car (8 mouths ago) and I complained with the dealer that the A/C wasnt working. Then he changed my dryer filter, cleaned up my evaporator and put R-134a. It was winter when he did it. So the A/C was cooling so good (as it cools at night now). But with the same problem of IDLE: no cooling or little cooling.))
He went putting till the system answer (the low line valve starts to cool and condense water). At this point, the pressure was about 45 Psi. But inside the car, the A/C was cooling, but NOT 50 ºF for sure. So he put more refrigerant tiil 50 psi... The system started to cool ok. But it was almost night and NOT 50F at vents. I thought with myself that in the sun it would not be OK. The day after I left the car in the sun and when I came back and turned the A/C on... NO COOLING at IDLE. When I started to move, a little cooling, the car was with a BIG loss of power and the compressor shut down. I thought that the pressure with high temp was too high, so I came back to the shop and asked the man to take some refrigerant out. We left in 40 psi. Now cool ok at night again, no much cooling in IDLE. Obs: If I drive 45 minutes in a Highway at 60 MPH (100 KPH) I can feel confortble in the car, even in sunny days. But only confortble with vent in number 4.
So, my doubt: Could it be 2 points of cooling when we fill with refrigerant. I mean, We could only make the system cool OK at 50 psi... At 40 PSI, the low line was at normal temperature (because of that I thought in the expansion valve at the begging) and hot line, TOO HOT, as ever.! We tought that if we continued removing refrigerant, the system would cool even less.
Another point:
Beside the A/C isnt cooling well, I think that I have another problem: A big diference in cooling with car in IDLE or with the car moving.
For exemple: At night, I'm with car stoped. i turn on the engine. Next I turn on the A/C. It starts to make a so little cooling. And then, with the car sopped in Neutral, I accel till 2000 RPM. It cools much better then in IDLE (between 700 and 800 RPM - car manual says that it's ok). Why is this happening?
The other guy told me to tight up the belt in order to try to solve this problem above.
And you are helping me a lot to make my A/C cool OK. But I'm thinking when I will have had my A/C cooling less than 50 F with car moving. It will be so nice. However, and if I'm stuck on traffic. Stopped. Will it work?
Did you get what I mean?
Actually, there's 2 problems. 1)The low cooling and 2) no cooling at IDLE.
About the equipments, I'll buy a scale. I didn't know that was so important putting the right mass of gas.
Another thing... the shops here don't fill first the hotline with liquid gas. They go straight to low line with liquid gas. In my case the low line valve is far away from compressor.
Sorry for the long text. I know that you may have a lot of work to do. 
And thanks one more time!
We will put this system to cool SO GOODDDDD together 
THanks,
Rodrigo.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 4, 2007, 2:02 PM
Post #32 of 37
(4676 views)
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Re: 93 Honda Civic A/C
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The issue with A/C is there is more to know about how it works in motor vehicles especially that a two year technical course is about what you need to really get a grip on all the principles and what is happening where in the system. Vehicles are a challenge to engineer as they have to deal with wildly different temps, RPM changes and the air speed over the condenser (the radiator thing in front of engine's radiator) and get it to produce even cooling air for you in the cabin at all these conditions.
When a system works markedly better at high or low speed there are all kinds of things possible but most are the exact charge of refrigerant which is calculated by the manufacturer to be the best average for the majority of use the vehicle is expected to be in. Harder yet is it has to do this in a vehicle that hits bumps in the road and tolerate winter temps and survive that for the next season. It's a miracle all by itself and no so easy as you can see.
You feel the load of the A/C which is somewhat normal. If it is really a drag on the engine the compressor is working to hard and that's usually too much refrigerant. More refrigerant does not equal better cooling. It has to do its magic at the right spot or it won't perform well or at all.
There is a high pressure side and a low pressure side to the system. Just a neat coincidence that the temp you feel in the lines is close in the # Fahrenheit as the pressure in PSI. So when you see it sweat it's low pressure there and cold to the touch and will make condensate (water - frost would be a problem) and the compressed side is hot and headed to be condensed to a liquid at the condenser. That pressure could be 2.2 to 2.5 times the ambient temp in Fahrenheit so if its 90F outside the line would normally be about 200F and at about 200PSI and that would be too hot to touch but normal.
When I used the words "sweet spot" I meant that is the exact spot that the system will work best both at low speeds and at high speeds. It would be too easy to just make it perfect for just idle speed. That would be like making a transmission with only one gear and that would be fine if you only want to drive 15mph just give you first gear and you'd be happy - see what I mean?
Vent temps for cabin should be able to cool in the 40sF and will behave better when driving along with some engine speed and better airflow for the condenser. That is normal. If it can't stay in the 40s it could be normal if stuck in traffic on a very hot day but unless over 100F outside it shouldn't go much above 50F at vents when driving along.
Whether a shop has used charging by liquid or gas is really only to speed up the charge. Using gas only is safer and just slower. It can be done with just the low side port. Again - keeping air out is critical. Sounds like we don't know that and funny things happen with very little air introduced to the system. That's why I have mentioned just getting it all out and start with known amounts. On the given day they just filled it till it went cool and a bit more is really just testing luck. That can work and you can get good at that way but it is a short cut way to achieve perfection and involves too much guessing and a risk of damage.
Oil flows with the refrigerant and different types are used with different refrigerants. It won't flow with a low charge and that can burn out the compressor.
Back to the belt: It should be at proper tension only and not over adjusted for a straining compressor as it would be hard on any pulleys and bearings of the items it powers so just get it right for the whole car not just tighter for A/C.
You've been very persistant yourself to find out what's going on for you with this and how to fix it the best way. It's hard on the pros when things don't work right the first time and many just give up on A/C as a business because it's a pain in the butt.
Somewhat off the topic: You live in Brazil. I have a pretty good understanding of the climate there and the wide variety of what you might be dealing with for professional help depending on exactly where in Brazil you are. By chance there are many folks here and still coming here to Massachusetts from Brazil. I believe most of Brazil speaks Portuguese but some areas may speak Spanish as a primary language. I have a great friend in Sao Paulo but she needs to converse in English with me as I don't know enough other than some French to get by and I couldn't with car work as the terms for parts would be hard to even look up. Do ask if I use a name of a part or component that you don't understand. Heck - folks here don't get it either so nothing new You know we are funny about the Metric/English measure thing. You can't sell gasoline by the liter as there would be a revolution. Milk, beer, butter, bread are sold in English measures. Try to sell someone 355ml of beer and you'd get a punch! If they changed the speed limits so many folks are so stupid if they saw a sign saying 100 they'd probably try that in mph which would of course be a bit much for even our good roads.
_______________________________
The cost of 12oz cans of 134a here is under $10. Kit to be able to add about $20. Bet it can be shipped by AutoZone which you should have there or other multi- national parts chain stores. A gauge or also called manifold set would be awesome to have and I know you can get one delivered for about $100 and even that you could use and re-sell and make $$.
We'll get there. This site is pretty neat as techs here are real hands on personal help not just point and click at some spot and figure it out yourself and tough luck if it doesn't work. There's nothing like hands-on experience to help with problems with things in general.
See you when you hit back,
T
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rodrigoscf
User
Nov 4, 2007, 6:30 PM
Post #33 of 37
(4674 views)
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Re: 93 Honda Civic A/C
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Hi!
You've helped me a lot !!
I'm from Rio de Janeiro here in Brazil. In Brazil we all speak portuguese, but all of our neighbor countries speak spanish. Almost all of latin america speaks spanish except for Brazil. In south of Brazil we have some people that speak German or French. But it's little neighborhoods whitch had a different kind of colonization.
About the specific terms I know a lot of them because I'm coursing Mechanical Engineering and we study with english books sometimes.
I saw something about refrigeration, but it was a little part of the course yet. I'll see further explanation next year.
But if I don't know something, I'll ask you for the meaning.
I'll try to do all of the issues that we discussed.
I think I found the mistake for the A/C.
I read on the site that you sent me, that the A/C takes 10 minutes to be good.
So the shop man was filling the system till he felt the system response. At this moment, probably the system was overcharged once it takes 10 minutes to be good.
I'll see the belt, if it is in the correct tension and then the process to refill my A/C system.
I'll post in return with the results.
THanks again,
Rodrigo.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 5, 2007, 4:21 AM
Post #34 of 37
(4667 views)
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Re: 93 Honda Civic A/C
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Yes - it takes time when charging a system by the "seat of your pants" for it to stabilize to where it will be for the long run. There are some vehicles with unknown exact right charge weight and what I do with those is fill to the expected minumum then actually drive the car around a bit and check ALL pressures and temps and inch up an ounce at a time to pin down what is the best possible for that car. Some replacement parts change the factory specs so we do get stuck fine tuning or tweaking a system now and then. It's not easy even when you know exactly what you are doing with the right equipment. That's a problem for shops in biz as it take up a lot of time. How do you charge your time for that??
Customer's don't understand and some shops don't and that causes headaches for all!
A/C has no real dipstick to tell you if things are exactly filled properly. The only way is to start from zero and measure that and KNOW then what type of refrigerant is in there. This is like getting an engine without a dipstick and guessing how much oil is in it. Hmmm?? You may know it holds four quarts from empty but it's running fine now on what might be only three. Do you guess and add a quart? What if it was full and you add a quart?? What if then you or someone adds yet another quart?? See the problem?
Keep at it - you will be the answer man of Rio for MVAC which is Motor Vehicle Air Conditioning,
T
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rodrigoscf
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Nov 5, 2007, 4:24 AM
Post #35 of 37
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Re: 93 Honda Civic A/C
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Hello!
I'm again... 
I posted in the A/C only forum as you suggested me.
I agree with you and understood all of what you said. I posted there because you told me that it would be good so that the other techs could see.
But, as soon as I can, I'll do what you recommended me.
Here is the link to the topic in case of you want to discuss there with other techs.
http://acsource.net/...ic.php?p=20688#20688
Thanks one more time! You have no idea of how much you're helping !!! I'm so happy and hopeful to put my system working !!! It's too hot here at this time of the year. About 95ºF and 100ºF in a hot sunny day.
Thanks...
Rodrigo.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 5, 2007, 4:33 AM
Post #36 of 37
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Re: 93 Honda Civic A/C
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Hi guy,
I'll see you there and I can muster up some extra attention there for you. Most techs there are from the Southwest US or Mexico and this is a slower time of year for A/C so you can get some extra help as they would have more time now. They are working in the biz - I'm retired which is why I have more time year round for this,
T
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Talking with you I can see that ALL the shops here don't know how to do the right service. If you come to Brazil and open an A/C shop you will make lots of money !!! First for the climate conditions here... every A/C shop earn lots of money, but usually once per client. Second by your quality. You'll conquer the clients and for that you'll always have lots of clients paying for your services. (How about a partnership, here? 
) I'm the one who went to 5 or + shops since my last car. I've never had a problem solved by them. Their solution is simple. They say that all your system is down. You need to remove everything, change a lot of parts and clean everything up. I agree in some parts, put I hate the point of changing everything. They dont have patience to find the real problem. But now I know why!