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Example of What NOT to use with A/C aka "Death Kits"
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jul 1, 2010, 4:17 AM
Post #1 of 14
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Example of What NOT to use with A/C aka "Death Kits"
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These are sold everywhere and to be avoided. If they had pure refrigerant of the exact type you needed they have a chance. Unfortunately they usually lack info on how many observations you really need to use and many contain unknown snake oils.
So much is riding on knowing the temps, the RPM when pressure is noted and so much more. Adding these unknown snake oils can really harm the system such that about nothing short of a complete overhaul would be needed! The gauges on these frequently use color scales - how special! You need exact #s for both high and low pressure. Many of these are so far off it's dangerous! In the trade the nick name for this stuff is "Death Kits."
Nothing beats having real gauges and thermometers and a good understanding of what you are doing. Adding too much refrigerant is way too common out there especially with this type product,
T
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zmame
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Jul 1, 2010, 3:41 PM
Post #2 of 14
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Re: Example of What NOT to use with A/C aka "Death Kits"
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Agreed..
Also some of the ones I have seen contain propane too.. just seems like a bad mix (especially if your a smoker)
What does a can equal?? 1 can = 1 lbs of refrigerant?? don't see how measuring low side pressure is going to tell you how much refrigerant to add.
.. I still have 12 old r-12 cans my grandfather gave me in my garage lol.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jul 2, 2010, 4:29 AM
Post #3 of 14
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Re: Example of What NOT to use with A/C aka "Death Kits"
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Save the old R-12 cans. They were sold in 12 or 14 oz cans and a different tap you should still have one or get a new one now before the taps are hard to find. Parts stores still sell the taps new. If a nice original R-12 car comes by and doesn't have a serious problem I'm now suggesting folks keep it r-12 as long as practical. When the standard taps are impossible to find they do make nice side can taps that will be available. Many to most R-12 vehicles has sight glasses so the guess work was easy.
Those "Death Kits" with low only pressure by color is a bad joke. In certification test there's a question about knowing how much product is in a system and if you can know by pressures - both pressures. If you select YES you got the question WRONG!
One problem with the little cans of R-12 is it's near impossible to save remaining product with those taps if you don't need the whole amount. Not once did I find one with anything in it just weeks later - bummer,
T
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jul 2, 2010, 4:49 AM
Post #4 of 14
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Re: Example of What NOT to use with A/C aka "Death Kits"
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There is still plenty of R12 on E-Bay. I always keep some around for my Vette but it's still up around $30 to $35 a can.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jul 2, 2010, 6:06 AM
Post #5 of 14
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Re: Example of What NOT to use with A/C aka "Death Kits"
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I've heard about Ebay sales of orig and fake R-12 so buyer beware. I thought Ebay was going to stop the sale of it as it is restricted in NATO nations and really must be declared and shipped ground. UPS here declined to deal with it! It is not explosive but could puncture and expand quickly so shouldn't be shipped by air.
I do understand it's made new in some places but good luck on knowing what you are getting. It's readily available in the US as recovered product and I think the minimum containers are now 15lb.
Hammer - Keep the Vette 12! as long as possible. The few Vettes I've worked on were marginal for A/C from the get go so alternatives could only be less capable. Shouldn't say on open web but the old horns for usually ball games and required for USCG non electric horns for boats were exactly R-12! Read the label for the exact chemical listed...........
Dichlorodifluoromethane CCL2F2 by chemical name, (hope I spelled that properly)
T
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jul 2, 2010, 6:32 AM
Post #6 of 14
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Re: Example of What NOT to use with A/C aka "Death Kits"
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The only restriction on e-bay is you have to possess a handling certificate. They are mostly old cans that people have sitting around. Some people buy and re-sell.
Here's a search that shows 121 auctions. There is some Feeze12 mixed in there too though.
http://shop.ebay.com/...t=See-All-Categories
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jul 2, 2010, 6:49 AM
Post #7 of 14
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Re: Example of What NOT to use with A/C aka "Death Kits"
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Re: Freeze12 - Folks should know it's not R-12 at all as the name suggests. I don't and won't use it as the properties and procedures are all different. No need personally as existing products are plenty adequate. I do think Canada restricts even 134a so folks get stuck. TMK Freeze12 is a concoction using some butane to carry oils and that's a far as I go with that product for now. YES - I've heard of excellent results from it and also disasters,
T
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jul 2, 2010, 7:10 AM
Post #8 of 14
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Re: Example of What NOT to use with A/C aka "Death Kits"
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Butane is used in some of those substitutes but Freeze 12 is not one of them. I do agree with you to stay away from all of that stuff.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jul 2, 2010, 9:09 AM
Post #9 of 14
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Re: Example of What NOT to use with A/C aka "Death Kits"
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Exacery! The alternatives just cause confusion and headaches. What are you supposed to do when you don't know what mix of what junk is in a system?
If anything but 134a was so special - trust me 100% of new cars would be using it now. There is an alternative mentioned at the last MACS convention to be the universal replacement for 134a. High chances that 152a meets enough of the criteria. Right now it's sold in many or some at least "Computer or Electronics Duster" and if approved would probably be an instant switch similar to the switch to 134a and discontinued manufacture of R-12 in 1993.
No matter for now. Original point was the kits boasting magic in a can and performance boosters. "Up to 40% cooler" - "O" ring conditioner, sealer (watch out!) as many sealers react to moisture and since a system already had some problem or might be empty it could be about as friendly as putting spray paint in the system. I don't want stuff banned but rather TRUTH IN ADVERTIZING!
If folks knew some of the snake oil products can cause mega bucks in damage they'd be a lot faster to seek proper fixes than that stuff.
Funny - I didn't expect this thread to get so much attention. Hey, at least the product shown in top post says right on it that it's for "Dummies."
Tom
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jul 2, 2010, 9:43 AM
Post #10 of 14
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Re: Example of What NOT to use with A/C aka "Death Kits"
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I think within a couple years that all new vehicles with come with R1234yf
Phaseout of R134A starts in 2011
http://www.pro-touring.com/...owthread.php?t=54639
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zmame
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Jul 2, 2010, 5:24 PM
Post #11 of 14
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Re: Example of What NOT to use with A/C aka "Death Kits"
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I also think RedTEK sells cans with R12 label on it, But i don't think its R12. I watched a demo of it at NAPA when they had there yearly BBQ thing. Blow colder then r134a. from the research i've done i think there just butane too.
You can actually buy bottles of it and hook it up to your r134a machine they sell them on there website pretty wild.
I heard a little on the r1234yf do you need to retro fit from r134a to r1234yf or is it a direct replacment?
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jul 2, 2010, 5:37 PM
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Re: Example of What NOT to use with A/C aka "Death Kits"
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From Popular Mechanics -
Fifteen years ago, the auto industry was forced to drop CFC-based refrigerant R-12 because of its liability for ozone depletion. They switched to non-CFC-based R-134a, which, as it turned out, also provided a substantial reduction in greenhouse gas liability. How much better is R-134a? Carbon dioxide has a global warming rating of 1. R-12 has a rating of 12,000. In other words, one pound of R-12 has the equivalent effect on global warming as 6 tons—12,000 pounds—of CO2. Years ago, that made R-134a’s rating of 1400 seem like a better deal. (As a point of reference, it takes one or two pounds of CO2 to dispense an entire keg of beer). But now automakers are considering a new refrigerant for worldwide use— R-1234yf. This new refrigerant has a global-warming impact number of just 4.
There is no intent to retrofit R-134a systems with the new R-1234yf, in the way many R-12 systems were haphazardly converted to R-134a. R-134a will remain available to service existing systems, and R-1234yf systems will use specific fittings, which should minimize accidental mixing of the two refrigerants. R-1234yf is slightly less efficient than R-134a. Of course, R-134a is less efficient than R-12, and auto manufacturers had to modify and upgrade systems to maintain good cooling performance when the last changeover was mandated. They’ll need to do so again.
R-1234yf will first appear in all-new European vehicles, so we might see some R-1234yf systems here by late 2011, with significant numbers starting in 2012.
Although R-134a continues to be available in small cans to DIYers, California will soon require self-sealing can valves and large deposit fees to encourage recycling of any leftover refrigerant in partially used cans. Whether R-1234yf will also be available in small cans is uncertain. Pro technicians are legally required to recover, recycle and reuse all auto a/c refrigerants. And that means that repair shops will have to purchase yet another expensive recycling machine for R-1234yf and inventory a larger collection of fittings and replacement parts, costs ultimately passed on to consumers.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Jul 2, 2010, 5:38 PM)
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zmame
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Jul 2, 2010, 5:58 PM
Post #13 of 14
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Re: Example of What NOT to use with A/C aka "Death Kits"
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'Wonder how less efficient its going to be?... What I don't understand is why they don't make a/c system all one unit in the car now that way there not exposed to the elements. Hybrids have electric compressors don't see why they can't build some sort of in car unit with external condenser of course.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jul 7, 2010, 3:02 PM
Post #14 of 14
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Re: Example of What NOT to use with A/C aka "Death Kits"
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Bump up........
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