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1993 Civic A/C clultch suddenly not engaging
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Skelley
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Jul 4, 2008, 2:23 PM
Post #1 of 16
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1993 Civic A/C clultch suddenly not engaging
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Hello
I have a 1993 Honda Civic CX 1.5 liter that had the A/C conversion done last year. I live in Boston and have been using the A/C for the last 2 months (it's gotten hot really early in the season this year) and the A/C has been blowing nice cold air on the hottest of days. Then one morning last week I got in the car to go to work and no cold air. I've done a little bit of diagnostics as follows:
1. the compressor is not engaging
2. the condenser fan runs continuously when the A/C is switched on from the dashboard. (The idle speed even creeps up a bit to allow for the extra A/C load.) Green switch light comes on when A/C button pushed.
3. I located and unplugged the A/C compressor relay and the contacts look fine. I tested continuity between the two terminals for 12v power (as recommended in Chilton's) and there is continuity (i.e., very low resistance).
4. visual inspection of condenser and hoses does not reveal any refrigerant oil residue
5. A/C compressor drive belt is fine
6. tried it on a cool day (today) same results.
Next I will try to see if 12v power is getting to the relay. I want to believe and hope it is a switch of some type since it was working so famously for many years until about 4 days ago!
Thanks for any help!
Scott
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Skelley
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Jul 4, 2008, 3:32 PM
Post #2 of 16
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Re: 1993 Civic A/C clultch suddenly not engaging
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Update--there's likely costly repairs ahead now.
The compressor relay turns out to be OK...(Tested it by swapping it with the condenser fan relay, which is identical to it). Fan still works, clutch does not engage
I was able to turn the compressor manually (engine off), so it is not frozen up at least.
Thanks.
Scott
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jul 4, 2008, 3:43 PM
Post #3 of 16
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Re: 1993 Civic A/C clultch suddenly not engaging
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Hi,
Have you tested for 12v getting to the clutch itself? It probably has a large air gap and can't pull in with increased distance. With just key in "run" postion and fans all on without engine running you can tap the outer plate and if it snaps in that's the trouble. Some of these are a total PITA to get at to adjust which is simple if you can get at them.
See if that works. Don't bother testing that if no power gets to the plug to compressor's clutch. Remove plug and test again. Clutch coil may be dragging in too much power (semi-shorted) NOT very common but will complicate diagnosing for a bit,
T
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Skelley
User
Jul 5, 2008, 1:59 PM
Post #4 of 16
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Re: 1993 Civic A/C clultch suddenly not engaging
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Hi Tom
Thanks for the quick reply. I tested for 12v at the clutch as you suggested. Since I couldn't actually pull the hot wire out of the compressor (as it is implanted into a rigid plug which is recessed in the compressor body near the coolant tubes), I did the next best thing and traced the hot wire a little ways back from the compressor. I found that the power runs through a snap-connector mounted on the outside of the condenser fan shroud. At first this was confusing but then this seems necessary because the hot wire going into the compressor has heavier cloth insulation while the wire into the connector is standard plastic jacket.
Anyway, I opened the connector up and tested for 12v (fans on) and there's no voltage. Now here is the strange part. I thought some part of the circuit to the connector must be open but there is continuity between this connector and the relay. So for whatever reason it seems like power is not getting beyond the relay. But 12v is getting to the relay, I do know that for sure, but I don't know if it's getting across to the other (output) side of the relay. At this point I really can't imagine what could have gone wrong. Any other suggestions I will be glad to try out.
Thanks for the help.
Scott
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jul 5, 2008, 3:55 PM
Post #5 of 16
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Re: 1993 Civic A/C clultch suddenly not engaging
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You really need a set of gauges. Those above are just $75 del. to US from a site I work at and don't get a dime for telling you they are there but that is a deal. You can rent them free from AutoZone and others no doubt with 100% deposit too but you may need them more if there's a refrigerant problem going on with this and not just some electrical problem.
We need to know the "static" pressure of the system at rest and the general temp underhood or the day's temp roughly for this test. Pressure of system should be real close to the temp in Fahrenheit. Ex: If 75F it should read 75 PSI. If at that temp it reads less than 60psi the system is about empty and will shut down by itself intentionally by design.
I'll follow you thru with this. Just know that about 65% of reasons compressor won't engage AND have no current to them would be low refrigerant from a leak. It's better to know that now and not chase down an electrical problem when it could be normal for low pressure to be inoperative.
I'm not sure the pressure sensing system of this Honda but all cars sense pressure and shut down system for assorted conditions - low pressure is the primary reason.
Hit back with that pressure and let's go from there.
If you want those gauges (no skin on or off my back) call 800-439-6695 (Arizona time) tell them I sent you and they'll probably double the price
Let me know,
T
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way2old
Veteran
/ Moderator
Jul 5, 2008, 4:30 PM
Post #6 of 16
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Re: 1993 Civic A/C clultch suddenly not engaging
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Do you have 2 "hot" pins at the relay? You need one constant 12 volt and one ignition 12 volt. Possibly blown fuse or diode in line.
Being way2old is why I need help from younger minds
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Skelley
User
Jul 6, 2008, 7:37 PM
Post #7 of 16
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Re: 1993 Civic A/C clultch suddenly not engaging
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Way2Old, yes I do have 12v at both sides of the relay. I thought I'd check continuity at the pressure switch and, bingo, that was it---open. Tom it turns out you were right---a leak in the system was keeping compressor shut down. So I took a gamble with $25 kit of freon and a low side gauge. Sure enough once I got some freon into the system, the clutch snapped to.
I never did get any cold air to come out as only about 1/2 to 2/3 of a 14-oz can would go in. I don't know how long it takes to empty a can into the system, but the flow seems to have stopped after 3-4 minutes. I must have been at it for 10 minutes at fast idle, holding the can upside down as instructed. When the clutch cycles out, the pressure gauge jumps up to "normal" range, which the gauge says is 45psi, otherwise when the compressor is running pressure drops down to almost 0.
And the leak...it appears to be in the low side schrader valve, which I discovered hissing a little bit after disconnecting the coupling. It won't snug up and stop, so unless you have any other suggestions, I think I will get a repair kit and replace the valve after cleaning it to see if I can stop the leak that way. However that will probably mean another 2 cans of freon, which at $6 is still cheaper than I could do at a shop.
Thanks again for your help in at least saving me lots of diagnostic costs, which start at about $100 here.
Scott
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jul 6, 2008, 9:13 PM
Post #8 of 16
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Re: 1993 Civic A/C clultch suddenly not engaging
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Hey Scott,
There could be some bad news here buddy! That 14 oz can most likely isn't just refrigerant. It's probably full of goo that could clog a good system. Tell us what's included in that can. If with sealer some react to air and moisture to make a seal and if air with its known moisture is in system it hardens up inside and can be game over for that car's A/C. You might get away with using it once but don't use those again. Those are not clearly labeled but should only be used for last ditch attempts when fixing it properly is out of the question. If you need to save buck you need a cap tap and pure 134a sold in 12oz cans. They sell low side only hoses with gauge NOT on the can. Also, 93 Civic retrofit the 14oz would be close to a total system charge if in a state of vacuum! The R-12 capacity was 22oz. Retro to 134a starts at 65% of that and not more than 80%. Passing the right mark will shut down system again as too full. Too low or too full, no cool. Only real way to know is to weigh the charge by the ounce or with both pressures you can get a general idea of the right mark.
Most (several types possible) retrofit adaptors for low side use a pin that looks like a 1/4 inch shrader but is just a connector pin using the car's original shrader. You would back those off as the adaptor is too close and pin touches orig shrader. If that type and still leaking or remove the adaptor and tighten the real shrader but watch out as if retro did use only a shrader on adaptor it would blow out if removed. What probably happened has happened is that pin is causing the leak and the cap managed to hold the charge for a while but those are cheap and can't be relied on to seal tight alone.
So where are we now? There's still a chance......
T
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Skelley
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Jul 7, 2008, 9:30 AM
Post #9 of 16
(5915 views)
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Re: 1993 Civic A/C clultch suddenly not engaging
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Holy CRUD! The sealant is in that can. It says 11oz 134a, 2oz lubricant and 1oz sealant. Since I only got about 1/2 to at most 2/3 of the can into the system, I figure 7-9oz total got in, with hopefully no more than .5oz of the goop. I'm not even going to try to run the A/C at all now. I did NOT buy the can with the gauge on it but the one with hose and gauge and tap that allows you to replace the can when empty. But it was a kit. At this point, would you recommend feeding pure 134a into the system? As I wrote in my earlier post, when the compressor is engaged the gauge shows near zero, but when the compressor cycles out, I guess that's when "static" pressure shows up at about 45 psi with no cold air out of the vents. By the way, it was about 80 degrees when I worked on it yesterday.
But maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, before figuring out the schrader valve. Regarding that, the one that is leaking is the actual valve in the hose fitting and not the converter (which I have to thread on and off to get the hood closed). In other words, when I unscrewed the converter valve from the line, the valve is leaking, which you can hear with the engine off. I'm not sure what this will mean regarding air bleeding into the system. Perhaps I will have to have the system evacuated at a shop?
Thanks for your continued help. This is beginning to be a long journey! Hopefully there is still a chance to dodge a big repair bill.
Scott
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jul 7, 2008, 10:47 AM
Post #10 of 16
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Re: 1993 Civic A/C clultch suddenly not engaging
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Ok for now and let's hope on the goo in there. The low static means it holds pressure but is empty. Now while there's pressure fix that leak. Even the goo can you could test holding it still (read whether upside right or down throws the junk out - kind of like spray paint some spray upright and clear upside down and vs versa) There's still 134a in there if you don't let it in it can be used for some pressure just to check that the leak is fixed. Soapy water should do for that - just like a tire repair for a shrader deal. Let's hope that's the only leak - can't realy know unless you see lots of oily spots on other A/C parts.
Didn't you say you are from Boston earlier? Depending - that's just 30-40 min from me. If you need to come to my shop we can arrange that. I'm retired and can dig the stuff out. Send me a PM (click on my name near the Kitty to send a PM)
Let me/us know how the known shrader leak fix works out,
T
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Skelley
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Jul 7, 2008, 12:23 PM
Post #11 of 16
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Re: 1993 Civic A/C clultch suddenly not engaging
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Ok, so I can go ahead and remove the needle valve out of the schrader, which will release the 134a, then run a thread chaser (from a kit) down there and install a new needle valve, and recharge the system? Then see if it leaks.
In other words, let me be clear, I will have to empty the low side to get that old needle valve out and put a new one in its place, right?
Just want to be sure before I go ahead with this next step.
Scott
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jul 7, 2008, 5:11 PM
Post #12 of 16
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Re: 1993 Civic A/C clultch suddenly not engaging
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There's a common low side adaptor. Best pic I could find out there for now. Note the threads in the upper, smaller end and if you look down in one like this there a shrader looking thing that is really just a pin to touch the original shrader. When this type is screwed onto original port it can thread further down than wanted and the pin is already touching and releasing gas thru the original real shrader. It a truck size (big rig) shrader tool you put down in the top of this type and unscrew it till it isn't touching the original - IT'S JUST A CONNECTOR PIN that can be moved closer or further to be right for an acme quick connect hose end. You really want it to be about 1mm away from the working shrader so it won't just leak out.
Some of these are the real shrader - I can't possibly know who used what. If you have some pressure known in the system it and it leaks with soapy water at the top of this fitting then turn it (inside) counter clockwise 1/2 turn and bet it quits leaking. If that speeds up the leak it might be the only shrader and would blow out! Don't allow that.
The whole fitting shown is usually 16mm hex or just two flat sides for an open end 16mm and even though they come with threadlocker they should be removable if you want to change it for another. In fact if you are still confused just go ask for one at a parts counter - this type you can blow air and see right thru!
In other words this is just like putting an extention on a tire valve so they reach thru a hubcap if you ever used or saw those.
Again, there are ones that are right angled and some that do remove the original shrader - I can't know that but could tell at a glance. Again - if you have an active leak here backing it off should stop the leak. If it doesn't get worse remove the whole fitting (the whole housing) and play with the original shrader - loosen a tad and snug up again and like tires they usually will work fine (don't overtighten shraders or they will leak) - that one is holding the charge in and to replace that does require removing the refrigerant unless you want to buy a funky tool that can do it for about $75 bucks.
We have to understand this much or we're lost,
T
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Skelley
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Jul 8, 2008, 5:34 PM
Post #13 of 16
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Re: 1993 Civic A/C clultch suddenly not engaging
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Got the leak figured out, though there might be a complication. Tom you were right on the mark about the schrader valve. I just backed it out a few times--carefully--then brought it back snug, did this about 5-6 times slowly with patience, and the valve stopped leaking! Note that this is what you call the "original" or "real" schrader installed with the factory air and not part of the "conversion" adapter hardware. I never would have guessed that it would come back and not leak. Anyway, that's good news #1.
Good news #2 is that I got the entire can of 134a in there, 14oz, (with just 1 oz being the "gunk"). Anyway, with that done, the cold air started blowing out of the vents.
Now for the (potentially) bad news. With the system pressurized, a second leak showed up on the low side. It's in a strange place though, in the low pressure line near the service port. There must be a pinhole in that line somewhere because 134a and/or oil came bubbling up around the spongy rubber insulation fitted around the low side pipe. It looks like it's aluminum. On my Civic, it's a line that runs directly down from level with the hood latch down to the bottom of the condenser, then turns 90-degrees and heads into the evaporator/compartment. The potentially good news is that the sealer in that "goop" might be working, because before I closed up the hood I didn't see any more bubbles, and it could not have emptied the system in that short of a time.
So I will see what happens tomorrow and keep an eye on it and report back if the leaks continue. In any case, whether that line needs replacing or not, you really helped greatly with the diagnostics and saved me lots of money and more headaches. Thanks for your expert help! I may be trying to call you out of retirement for a repair if this doesn't hold.
Scott
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jul 8, 2008, 8:24 PM
Post #14 of 16
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Re: 1993 Civic A/C clultch suddenly not engaging
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Sound great Scott and thanks for the kind words. Glad you fixed up the shrader (I was getting tired of spelling that word so often!)
About sealer and the leak in metal line. There are sealers (I tested one) specifically to seal metal which are the real nightmare as they gunk up even the hose you use to put it in, LOL! I think the stuff (they never tell on those kit cans) is only able to soften some rubber leaks but so does plain Ester oil used in convertions.
About the pin hole you saw. Remember right where it is as best you can. That alloy used for hose metal rusts (corrodes) faster than cheap steel in the road salt here and the foam insulation on anything A/C holds moisture and the salts all year long so it should be removed - it does almost nothing to help except for perhaps noise insulation or chaffing if hose touches something.
I have fixed pin hole leaks in unconventional ways with success from the outside!
Do look me up if you need help - especially with leak finding. Haven't even checked out my equipment for the year and it's almost over already!
Stay cool,
T
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Skelley
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Jul 12, 2008, 1:24 PM
Post #15 of 16
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Re: 1993 Civic A/C clultch suddenly not engaging
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Hi Tom
Found the leak in the line. It's in the A/C pipe #9 illustrated below. The leak is located right where the harness connects it to the bracket at #27. Over time that must have bumped enough to wear a thin part in that tubing. So it's not something that I can fix because there's no way to reach that spot. Also, once I stripped back the rubber casing, it was hissing pretty good, so I think it's more than a pinhole.
So I think I'll just buy the part from Honda and see if I can get someone to install it for me. Of course that will require a complete system evacuation. Let me know if you have any suggestions for this repair as I am not too far away.
Thanks
Scott
 
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jul 12, 2008, 5:47 PM
Post #16 of 16
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Re: 1993 Civic A/C clultch suddenly not engaging
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The good new is you found it and you are right it has to go. Access to this stuff can be nasty as you can see.
You'll lose this charge if not gone now. Best to disable A/C if you can do that easily so it doesn't think of kicking on even for a few seconds. It's open just to replace this of course fully mandating a vacuum. Whether you try this or have it done drain that tube of any oil and measure it. Could be none or an ounce - don't know.
A. AutoZone will rent gages and the vacuum pump for free I've heard with 100% deposits for safe return.
B. Give me a shout if It's a real headache to get vacuumed down - but do check first. I didn't use my pump at all last year and have to make sure it works! The part should be replaced quickly after old one comes out or protect the open ends from air and dirt. Oil and dessicant (in driers) will absorb just so much moisture and they are trash. Vacuum must be held and stay steady for about 30 minutes which is some proof that leak(s) is/are fixed, then it can be charged up.....
T
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