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hog fan
Anonymous Poster
rpeterson1955@aol.com
Jan 31, 2008, 5:35 PM
Post #1 of 17
(2606 views)
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I have a 2001 pt. I replaced the thermostat and rad cap..It seems to push to much coolant to overflow tank.Is it overfull or is it the head gasket?
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jan 31, 2008, 5:50 PM
Post #2 of 17
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You need to fill the engine and radiator full with any tricks you can before you fill the recovery tank or first warm up the remaining air lock will barf out coolant and all to the tank. It could have a head gasket problem but get the air out first and then we can discuss that,
T
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Guest
Anonymous Poster
Jan 31, 2008, 6:48 PM
Post #3 of 17
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How do I get the so- called air lock out? Let me know pleeease..
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Feb 1, 2008, 12:16 AM
Post #4 of 17
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What prompted changing the thermostat to begin with?
The thermostat when cold is a stopper for coolant flow to radiator so air can get trapped any time coolant is lowered or lost for any reason. Vehicles with the pressure cap at the recovery tank which I think this one does are harder to know that the system is truly full when refilling. It's a real problem in some cases to get all that air out.
Just how did you refill the system? Some vehicles you need to fill thru a hose when removed or open an air bleed on the engine probably near the thermostat.
I'm just guessing that what happened is the air heated up in the engine and it will expand faster than coolant and push whatever coolant in its way to the recovery tank first appearing to be overfilled. The idea is to push air to that tank and return only coolant when the engine cools and coolant contracts - self purging but wont' just do it in one shot.
Bet if you go back and look now the recovery tank is empty or low again if cooled off now. Many cycles of that would purge out the air in time but you shouldn't wait or let it overheat which it could just letting it do it on it's own which it may not unless you have it mostly filled to begin with.
Just where are you at with this now?
T
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Guest
Anonymous Poster
Feb 1, 2008, 5:07 PM
Post #5 of 17
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I found the bleeder .Looks like a brake bleeder on the thermostat housing. Do I drain some coolant out then open the bleeder while filling? I hate to be a pain.But a quick walk thru whould help.I'M lost on what do I do 1st ect. Thanks.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Feb 2, 2008, 2:08 AM
Post #6 of 17
(2580 views)
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Ok: Bear with me and I'll get back to this with a more detailed procedure which may take some time for me to think out. For right now - if that is just like a brake bleeder it probably won't bleed air until removed and cleaned - if so have a plug for the hole ready. The basic idea is that air rises over liquid and can't pass thru the thermostat when it's closed which traps air. Back later,
T
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Guest
Anonymous Poster
Feb 2, 2008, 5:35 AM
Post #7 of 17
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Thanks Tom ;]] Let me know
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Feb 3, 2008, 2:15 AM
Post #8 of 17
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Automotive Cooling Systems - Getting the air out!
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Ok: Let me give this a shot at explaining. I spent the day thinking of how I could write something about this that could easily explain this problem and the solutions so it could be referred to for many as this is a common problem. There are some tricks for exact makes and models but basically the same thing.
* Think of the cooling system as two areas - engine side and radiator side. About always a thermostat is at the highest point between them and shuts when cold and gradually opens when it approaches the set temp then fully open to circulate the coolant to radiator and return the cooled, coolant to the engine.
* The T-stat is capable of being somewhat air tight when cold/closed. When coolant is drained or lowered on purpose or from a leak it will lower the level in the engine side and the radiator side. When filled again at the radiator side the coolant fills what it can but can't push the air on top of remaining coolant in engine back thru the T-stat so it's locked in there till the thermostat opens and the air (naturally at the top) goes out to radiator, liquid coolant should return thru the lower radiator hose to the engine and you would notice the drop in coolant level at the radiator - a good time to fill again BUT.......... vehicles without a radiator cap on the radiator itself just don't manage to get that air out to where you would fill it at the pressure recovery tank so you have to be assertive with them.
!! I'm winging it here so bear with me. The idea is getting the air out of the locked engine side to where you can replace it with coolant of the side you are supposed to be able to add directly to, to replace air with coolant. By itelf it would purge air out to recovery and return just liquid... note the tank has a little hose at the bottom that allows coolant flow to and from the radiator. Just that smaller hose is slow to accomplish this without intervention when system has been drained.
It's hard with these to just let the engine warm up enough to have the T-stat open and stay there long enough to on the difficult ones you would let air out of the engine side before the thermostat with a bleeder if equipped or taking a hose off on that side as high up as possible and fill it there and re-attach. When you have most air out just normal driving around will get any remaining insignificant air out to that recovery tank a little at a time over the cycles of warm and cold - expansion/contraction of the coolant.
Warning: When dealing with a cooling system don't open up when under pressure. You can feel that there is pressure fairly easily at an upper radiator hose - use a rag and don't get burned. Water/coolant is a liquid at temps below 212F (rough ave) and a vapor above that with no pressure on it. Water/coolant will remain a liquid at about 3 extra degrees per lb of pressure. If that pressure is released it can and will flash to a vapor and can cause serious injury! Apply common sense folks.
Now a snag with assorted ways the heater operates. When filling and testing the heater should be on full temp request and low fan. Feel for the heat. That proves that liquid coolant is there as even hot air going thru a heater core won't exhange much heat. Some heaters have a constant flow of coolant and adjust the temp desired by controlling flow of the coolant itself or use a diverter door to blend heated and ambient air temp to deliver disired air temp to cabin. This will vary in assorted vehicles.
NOTE: Some vehicles use the heater/core - coolant flow as part of the by-pass system which allows the water pump to maintain even temps inside the engine's coolant. This is necessary so that the thermostat gets the real overall engine temp or it would fluctuate and cause problems of its own.
Note again: This is with the components of the cooling system all in good shape and able to work properly. Debris in cooling system, leaks, head gasket problems, or defects of assorted kinds can and will complicate the success of purging air out of a cooling system.
Ask away as needed. I'll try or others please jump in and edit this as needed. This is a common problem. Techs and DIYers alike have to deal with this frequently,
Hope that helped for now..........
Tom Greenleaf, 2-3-2008
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Feb 3, 2008, 2:18 AM)
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Guest
Anonymous Poster
Feb 3, 2008, 4:34 AM
Post #9 of 17
(2569 views)
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Re: Automotive Cooling Systems - Getting the air out!
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Wow..Thanks sooo much for the time you spent helping me out. I went out yesterday and tried the bleed off thing. I made sure the system was full. Well , I opened the cap which is NOT on the rad and topped it off. Started the car and opened the bleeder. It spit air out and I did it till the coolant got to hot and closed the bleeder. I repeated this again after a cool down. I let the car idle for 10 mins after.
Then I revved it up to 2-3 grand for a bit.. I watched the overflow tank and it never filled up !!!
I drove it for a bit and had no problem. I need to take it out for a longer drive today.
I am crossing my fingers here, But it seemed to work . I will let you know more after a longer haul
I went and smelled the exhaust and could not smell anti freze in it..Hoping this is NOT a head gasket problem. Again many thanks for your time.
I will let you know more today. Randy in Fayetteville Arkansas..Go Hogs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Feb 3, 2008, 5:19 AM
Post #10 of 17
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Re: Automotive Cooling Systems - Getting the air out!
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Randy - That was my kitty's work. I left the 'puter on and she was sick of waiting
I don't think you have a head gasket problem. Just keep a sharp eye on the temp gauge and leave the heater on if you can stand it even if not needed for a while. As mentioned the heater will quit blowing warm air when only air is passing thru it. That can be just air or bubbles from the coolant boiling and actually is a faster warning than the gauge sometimes. If you do overheat you are back to square one with this. It should begin or already be very stable and you can just archive this as not quite as simple as it looks for just swapping out a thermostat!
T and Kitty!
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way2old
Veteran
/ Moderator
Feb 3, 2008, 9:47 AM
Post #11 of 17
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Re: Automotive Cooling Systems - Getting the air out!
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Excellent work Mr. Greenleaf. This is for Kitty (and you).
Being way2old is why I need help from younger minds
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Anonymous Poster
Feb 3, 2008, 1:28 PM
Post #12 of 17
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Re: Automotive Cooling Systems - Getting the air out!
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Mucho thanks to Kitty then ;]] It is very cool of you to take your time to help others. The world needs more like yourself in it .
I will give you a update when the wife takes it to work Monday. Thanks again..Randy in Arkansas 
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Anonymous Poster
Feb 5, 2008, 6:43 PM
Post #13 of 17
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Re: Automotive Cooling Systems - Getting the air out!
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I spoke to soon .. The wife got home today after a 5 min drive and the radiator hoses were not hot yet. But the coolant was filling up the overflow tank??
There is pressure somewhere.. I feel it IS a head gasket..Damn!! I bleed the system 3 times..This sucks.
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Anonymous Poster
Feb 5, 2008, 6:44 PM
Post #14 of 17
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Re: Automotive Cooling Systems - Getting the air out!
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And the coolant in the overflow tank was NOT hot?????
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Feb 6, 2008, 4:57 AM
Post #15 of 17
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Re: Automotive Cooling Systems - Getting the air out!
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Dangit!!!! It's possible  . Know that anytime air is heated out of sight it will expand tons more than a liquid which pushes the coolant out to that tank. If that air (I guess I should say 'gas'/'vapor' ) is in fact from combustion gasses or exhaust gasses then it behaves like plain air in the system. It keeps coming so you can't just purge it out if in fact that is what is happening.
Head gaskets don't always leak coolant into combustion or oil but can leak about any thing they seal from one to another.
Ever heard the phrase "Blow a Gasket" as an expression of exasperation? Appropriate isn't it? Get a good diag before making the decision to replace the head gasket and all that can go with that. We are still here and will try as best we can to minimize wasted money and effort on your part,
T
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Anonymous Poster
Feb 6, 2008, 5:34 AM
Post #16 of 17
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Re: Automotive Cooling Systems - Getting the air out!
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Thanks Tom.. I had one guy say maybe the impellars are shot on the water pump. Could the radiator be plugged up a bit? When I bled the system it never did run out a solid stream, Like I could not stop the air purge. But to push the coolant to the tank,I touched the fluid and it was not hot has me bafooned. Randy
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Feb 6, 2008, 6:38 AM
Post #17 of 17
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Re: Automotive Cooling Systems - Getting the air out!
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Water pump impellers have been the source of problems. In this vehicle with no cap on the radiator you can't just eyeball the flow which stinks. The coolant if for any reason getting a supply of vapor/air/gasses on the engine side will create pressure to push the coolant thru the lower hose (cooler there by nature) and liquid up and out to the tank from the bottom of the whole system where naturally the liquid will be before air is on the bottom which is really only when it's empty. One hot spot away from your sight or observation could be boiling away pushing coolant that isn't hot at all.
Think of what would happen in a long metal pipe totally filled with water say as an example a 40 foot stretch of iron pipe stretched out with both open ends being the highest level and full to see it. Now take a blow torch to the middle and boil just a couple inches and it would push cold water out the ends - does that make sense?
Ok: There are devices to detect exhaust gasses in coolant - I never used those but I think they are detecting hydro carbons or things that would be found in exhaust gasses but as engines are infinately better at completely burning the fuel the exhaust can be free of things to detect so easily and that test might not be conclusive.
This tread became a documentary somehow. If we go back to why this thermostat was replaced to begin with it could be a clue as to what is the likely problem with this now and yes I'm thinking "head gasket" but it's such a waste to be wrong with that diagnosis. Anytime an engine overheats for any reason at all is hard on that.
A total system flush would be helpful in knowing if the radiator is clogged as I don't think you can just look and see it very well. Debris, junk of any kind noted when you were looking at things or goo in that recovery tank would be telltale. You used to be able to just feel the heat transfer of a radiator getting progressively hot to cool and could tell how well it was doing but even with a heat sensing gun it's hard to get a good shot at it.
This may end up needing some help - hands on, from a skilled tech. Hang in there,
T
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