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brake puzzle - help please
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nhawk72
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Feb 24, 2012, 10:34 PM
Post #1 of 12
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brake puzzle - help please
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I cant figure this one out, lots of little details I will try to get all of them. Ive got a 1999 olds eighy eight. I had the front brakes done less then 2 years ago – not more then 20000 miles put on since then. I recently brought the car in to the same mechanic who did brakes 2 yeas ago, to check the brakes bc they were making some noise and not feeling good etc. They said I needed brakes again, both sides….(first puzzle). So I was suspicious bc they had just been done by them, so I went and got a full estimate/checkup from firestone. They gave me measurements on my pads, left w 8mm and right with 2mm…(2nd puzzle). And they said I needed a brake job too, and blamed the bad brakes and the imbalance of pads on faulty calipers and needed to replace those too. So I opted out of that and went to a 3rd mechanic recommended by a friend, and somehow let him convince me to get the brakes done, and that also the master cylinder was not good and needed to be replaced…3rd puzzle – (if master cylinder is broke wouldn’t the brakes completely fail? And the brakes still worked fine throughout this whole time, but did feel weak or whatever)…and also that 1 caliper was stuck and they would take it apart and clean it and oil it and should be fine. This was the caliper on the side with 2mm pads left. Ok, so now work is done, new pads, rotors, master cylinder and cleaned calipers, and he tells me that 1 of the brake lines has a hole in it and is leaking/ spraying out fluid when the brakes are applied (4th puzzle). So I asked well why didn’t you notice that before you put all the new brakes on, and they said bc only now that the brakes are working, there is finally pressure in the brake line so the hole became apparent. Please help try to figure this out for me and what I should do next.
And if you dont mind, one additiional question - the mechanic convinced me to do both brakes, when i was just trying to get the one side done that had only the 2 mm left on pads, and save some money. he said if I only did 1 side it would imbalance the car when braking etc and would be unsafe. is this true or could I have gotten away with just doing the 1 side?
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Double J
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/ Moderator
Feb 24, 2012, 10:49 PM
Post #2 of 12
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Re: brake puzzle - help please
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No,he told you correctly,you cannot just replace pads on one side....
The only question i have is the reason for the master cylinder replacement.
What was the failure?
Calipers probably had seized slide pins,thats why they cleaned and lubed them,probably should have replaced the
the pins and bushings tho...
The line blew because its rusted and porous..when a master cylinder is replaced,the system has to be bled to remove trapped air
in the lines...the pressure from bleeding can pop a rusted/weak line..not uncommon at all...they should've inspected them and let you know in advance that it can happen....beware,if they only replaced one section of line,the others are in the same condition and can blow at any time,causing you to lose brakes....
And its not uncommion to need brakes again after 20k,especially on a GM car....Should've let the original mechanic repair them again.
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nhawk72
Novice
Feb 24, 2012, 11:19 PM
Post #3 of 12
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Re: brake puzzle - help please
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Ok, good stuff, thanks. I dont know the reason for the master cylinder replacement, he told me it was bad and needed to be replaced. (I should have researched more like I am doing now, but I was off for some reason and I didnt and here I am) My question though is if the master cylinder was bad, would that not result in a complete or even partial brake failure? My only real brake issue for bringing it in the first place was the weak almost grinding noise i was getting, which after getting the report from firestone I assumed was bc of the 2 mm left. So in general the brake system was working fine, just some worn pads.
And then why was one side 2mm and the other 8...that doesnt seem like normal brake operation and wear.
The brakes I had on before i got the ones replaced 2 years ago i know had over 50000 on them, I dont city drive much at all. Lots of short highway trips in burbs. So I was upset and suspicious so i didnt have original mechanic do the work again
we are in the process of replacing that line...after the weekend. what do you mean 'section'? I think if I understand correctly that there are maybe 2 - 3 sections for brake lines...1 from master cylinder to ABS, 2 from abs to somewhere ( a connecting point)...? and from somewhere to calipers...? Anyway, the ruptured line is 1 of the lines from the ABS to somewhere. Yes, there are 3 others and they look pretty rusted too. However he told me that olds doesnt make these any more and that they are tough to find and that he will have to have some pipe engineer make them...? So ive been calling around and apparently napa auto parts can make them if I bring them the line so they can make an exact copy to put back in. Sound right? And yes, if that ends up being not to difficult of a process i will replace them all.
also quick questionto finish...So you cant replace pads without doing rotors too?
Thanks
(This post was edited by nhawk72 on Feb 24, 2012, 11:24 PM)
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Double J
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Feb 24, 2012, 11:41 PM
Post #4 of 12
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Re: brake puzzle - help please
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You can replace pads without replacing rotors ,its just not advisable.
Rotors have to either be machined on a lathe or replaced during a brake service.
Depending on their condition
Most shops will not perform a brake job without doing a resurface or replacement of the rotors.
When the caliper slide pins seized up,it caused the one side to wear faster than the other...
You should have had some indication that the master was faulty ,either a soft pedal,pedal fade to the floor then can be pumped back up,red warning light on...something.....i would ask them to explain the reason it was "bad"....
Section is just a word i used to refer to the line they replaced....
Again ....not surprised that it only got 20 k use...i can see where you would be skeptical since you got 50 k before.
Its all based on quality of pads that were installed and driving habits...
Those 15 and 20 dollar pads at places like Autozone and Pep Boys are just that..inexpensive pads...
The brake lines come in different lengths and have to be made to fit the vehicle...no special pipe engineer has to make them,just someone with experience...and they will have to be made on car...there is no way to properly bend them and just install them on the car,too many things in the way that theyre routed.
I hope i made sense of that
(This post was edited by Double J on Feb 24, 2012, 11:43 PM)
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nhawk72
Novice
Feb 25, 2012, 12:08 AM
Post #5 of 12
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Re: brake puzzle - help please
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Absolute sense, your help is awesome..hope you have patience for just a bit more :)
When he was inspecting car, he told me about the master cylinder and asked 'didnt the breaks feel soft like you could press the pedal to the floor?'...and I said no. and I can for certain say that I never had a hard time braking in terms of having to press really too hard or far bc they may have been soft, and certainly not to he floor. i pressed the pedal and the car stopped, routine and consistent.
But I suppose I may have never noticed it if it was there, as its the only car i drive so nothing to compare it to.
So for the lines...I buy some long brake line from napa lets say, and the mechanic will have to route it in the car. sounds and looks tough, like you said theres too many things in the way. Labor time for that? I know the lines themselves are not expensive
Thanks
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nhawk72
Novice
Feb 25, 2012, 12:23 AM
Post #6 of 12
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Re: brake puzzle - help please
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wow, cool. I just found you guys have a store too. I thought this was just forums. i will definitely buy from here now when I can
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Double J
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Feb 25, 2012, 1:17 AM
Post #7 of 12
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Re: brake puzzle - help please
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No problem,plenty of patience...thats why we're here...ask away...
Maybe he did notice something that wasnt quite right ...Sometimes you get so used to your own vehicle that you may not have noticed a problem. But with a soft pedal or pedal fading/going to the floor,i would think you wouldve picked up on it.
But lets give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's credible and just caught a problem before you experienced a complete brake failure.
Yes,the lines are inexpensive...its mainly the labor time to replace them.
Usually its going to be a time and materials job...there is a guide in a Chiltons or Alldata Labor time guide as to what labor hours to charge but its not cast in stone ,especially when your dealing with rusted lines/retaining clips ,etc.
I would guess a minimum of 3-4 hours to replace the lines and bleed the system.Replacing all the lines from the master to the abs unit and then to all the wheels is a task for sure.
Let the Mechanic/shop obtain/supply the lines if possible or at least tell you which size lines you'll need and what lengths and any unions if your trying to cut costs...most shops wont install customer supplied parts tho.
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nickwarner
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Feb 25, 2012, 3:53 PM
Post #8 of 12
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Re: brake puzzle - help please
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The master cylinder may have possibly failed because the brake line failed. The cylinder is a hydralic piston in a bore that pushes fluid when you hit the brakes out to actuate the pistons of your calipers. When all things are intact it doesn't ever travel its entire stroke. Now this piston has rings on it to provide a perfect seal. But you likely never have had your brake fluid flushed out, and over the years it has gotten dirty. The stuff is almost clear when new, and I would guess yours was brown or black from dust and contaminents in the air. So this dirt gets pushed out of the normal working range of these pistons and piles up. Now blow a line and the piston seals finally hit the accumulated crap by the pedal going all the way down. The crap tears the seals and turns a good master cylinder into garbage. Its a common thing to have happen. I've had plenty of blown brake line jobs become master cylinders because of it. I've also been accused of trying to rip people off because of it. But the thing is cars will always break of their own accord. There are shops that do act shady, but few and far between. I'm thinking your original mechanic was a stand up guy and not in any sense of the word taking you for a ride on this. I'm glad you asked for clarification from us so we could help you understand what is happening and why.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Feb 26, 2012, 8:13 AM
Post #9 of 12
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Re: brake puzzle - help please
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Zackery Nick! When all but a much newer master cylinder travels into the crust where no man has gone it will tear up the thing such that a $1 line wrecks it. Well said,
Tom
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Feb 26, 2012, 8:24 AM
Post #10 of 12
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Re: brake puzzle - help please
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Another possible reason that the mechanic recommended the master to be replaced was because he/she saw it was wet around the brake booster where the master mounts. Very common for those masters to leak out the back end, but they operate just fine.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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nhawk72
Novice
Feb 28, 2012, 8:13 AM
Post #11 of 12
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Re: brake puzzle - help please
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Nick - First the mechanic replaced the master cylinder and rotors and pads, then bc of the bleeding and the new pressure in the system, thats when the brake line blew. Did I understand correctly that you were under the impression the brake line blew first?
So now we are stuck with a broken brake line...no one sells these parts. Ive been told on this board and by other mecjhanics and the dealers to get the diameter for these lines, buy a long piece of it and mechanic will have to shape it as he puts it in...sounds like a major job and pain in the A$$. So actually my mechanic suggested that he will cut out the area of the line that is broken and repair that area with new pipe and clamp(?) togehter on either end. I really appreciate his interest to save me money, is this safe and doable?
Thanks again to all for your input
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nickwarner
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Feb 28, 2012, 3:56 PM
Post #12 of 12
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Re: brake puzzle - help please
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Fabricating a new brake line is easy and where I live its a daily thing in every shop because of the road salt. If you just patch a bad spot it might work for a day, a week, maybe even a few months. But the next weak spot on it will blow and give you no warning whatsoever when it happens. Tends to blow at high pressures when you need it most, like when someone pulls out in front of you or a little kid runs into the street. You lay on the brakes and the pedal drops to the floor. Not exactly cost effective. I go from point to point with one solid piece of line. They sell it in 20 foot spools and you can form it to the contours of the car with your bare hands. This isn't precision engineering at all. When I had my own shop I totalled it up once and in one year I went through 300 feet of 3/16" brake line. Thats how common it is. I was buying it by the spool at the cost of about $1.10 per foot. The line unions you would need to splice in a patch cost almost as much as the length of line you would need to do this the right way. I don't know why he is recommending to cut the corner on this, its not worth it.
I was under the initial impression that the line went prior to the master replacement, but as DS pointed out if the rear seal of it had a leak it would be seen while the brakes still operated properly. Could be another reason he condemned the master cyclinder. But don't patch that line. You'll never be able to trust your brakes to stop you in a hurry if you do. It'll come back to haunt you when you need it the most.
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