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Troubleshot a lot. not sure what my issue is
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amp123dime
Novice
Mar 15, 2012, 6:38 PM
Post #1 of 19
(1639 views)
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Troubleshot a lot. not sure what my issue is
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Hi, So my 1994 mercury sable 3.0L engine just stopped driving down the highway. Got it home. Assumed fuel pump was bad. Replaced fuel pump (it was clearly bad) & the Powertrain control module (clearly fried). Still wouldn't start. Bought a new distributor and replaced. Had Autozone check the ignition coil, and test the ignition control module. They tested like they were suppose to within range. Replaced the distributor cap spark plugs and spark plug wires.
Just for reference also replaced fuel filter, thermostat, water pump, power steering pump, battery all within a month prior to this issue occuring as well.
Im determined to fix this just don't know what else would prevent the engine from firing up
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 15, 2012, 7:03 PM
Post #2 of 19
(1606 views)
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Re: Troubleshot a lot. not sure what my issue is
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[quote} Im determined to fix this just don't know what else would prevent the engine from firing up
Well, if you keep throwing parts at it the way you have been you may eventually hit it and then you may waste a lot more money too.
Here's the way it is done.
All "crank, no start" conditions are approached in the same way. Every engine requires certain functions to be able to run. Some of these functions rely on specific components to work and some components are part of more than one function so it is important to see the whole picture to be able to conclude anything about what may have failed. Also, these functions can ONLY be tested during the failure. Any other time and they will simply test good because the problem isn't present at the moment.
If you approach this in any other way, you are merely guessing and that only serves to replace unnecessary parts and wastes money.
Every engine requires spark, fuel and compression to run. That's what we have to look for.
These are the basics that need to be tested and will give us the info required to isolate a cause.
1) Test for spark at the plug end of the wire using a spark tester. If none found, check for power supply on the + terminal of the coil with the key on.
2) Test for injector pulse using a small bulb called a noid light. If none found, check for power supply at one side of the injector with the key on.
3) Use a fuel pressure gauge to test for correct fuel pressure, also noticing if the pressure holds when key is shut off.
4) If all of these things check good, then you would need to do a complete compression test.
Once you have determined which of these functions has dropped out,
you will know which system is having the problem.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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nickwarner
Veteran
/ Moderator
Mar 15, 2012, 7:25 PM
Post #3 of 19
(1594 views)
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Re: Troubleshot a lot. not sure what my issue is
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What was the fuel pressure on your "fried" pump? What was the voltage at its connector? What was the ohm reading of its ground circuit? If the PCM was a suspect, what was the criteria for condemning it? If these parts were both bad at the exact same time it would be the first I've seen.
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amp123dime
Novice
Mar 15, 2012, 7:59 PM
Post #4 of 19
(1582 views)
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Re: Troubleshot a lot. not sure what my issue is
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The fuel pump was bad. the screen inside was gone and the teeth on the gears in the fuel pump were shot. Also one of the wires attached to the pump didn't have a solid connection. The power control module was definately fried you could smell the burnt electrical. And there was a burnt hole in the control board of the power control module.
did the spark plug test and its not getting a spark. at all. Had my mechanic friend bring his voltage meter and tested that everything was within range. I was told at the auto parts store that coil should pulse. I am getting 12 volts on both of the posts of the ignition coil. Leading us to believe the ignition control module is bad. Even though it tested fine at the auto parts store.
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amp123dime
Novice
Mar 15, 2012, 8:57 PM
Post #5 of 19
(1570 views)
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Re: Troubleshot a lot. not sure what my issue is
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Also tested that it had fuel pressure. So its for sure getting fuel
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amp123dime
Novice
Mar 15, 2012, 9:22 PM
Post #6 of 19
(1566 views)
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Re: Troubleshot a lot. not sure what my issue is
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Not getting a spark. The rotor turns. I guess the next step is to find someone with a scan tool and check the computer codes. Not sure what else it could be. Unless the autozone tests of the ignition control module and ignition coil were misleading me and one of them is bad.
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amp123dime
Novice
Mar 15, 2012, 9:34 PM
Post #7 of 19
(1563 views)
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Re: Troubleshot a lot. not sure what my issue is
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Also wasnt just throwing parts at it. tested the fuel pump by jumping power to it to determine it was bad. The Powertrain control module you could smell the fried electrical and actually broke it open and saw the burnt relays. Then it was a matter of why it wasn't getting spark when I had done a tune-up earlier in the month. Replaced the distributor because after checking the ignition control module and ignition coil. They really wasn't much else left but the pick up coil. Buying a new distributor was much easier than changing out the pick up coil. Plus the distributor gear was worn anyhow.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 16, 2012, 3:17 AM
Post #8 of 19
(1550 views)
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Re: Troubleshot a lot. not sure what my issue is
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You keep trying to justify changing all these parts that didn't fix anything and you still refuse to follow the exact instructions given so you're going to be looking for this problem for a long time.
We deal with guys like you that think they have all the shortcuts and don't test the way we ask all the time. I don't plan on riding your merry-go-round.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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nickwarner
Veteran
/ Moderator
Mar 16, 2012, 2:51 PM
Post #9 of 19
(1524 views)
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Re: Troubleshot a lot. not sure what my issue is
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Testing fuel pressure doesn't mean you have fuel, it means you have the potential for it IF the pcm triggers the injectors to deliver it and the injectors are capable of delivering the said fuel into the intake. Along with that you have to have sufficient vacuum to draw it into the cylinder and then fire it only if you have the correct compression and spark at the correct time. Checking the pressure was a good idea, but I see no mention of a test of injector pulse with a noid light. You could be condemning an ignition part because it wasn't triggered by the PCM to create a spark due to lack of signal from a crank sensor. Thats why we test the way we do and in the order we do. When you bill by flat rate you have to be efficient with your time. We are efficient and doing it our way saves you time and money. We are the pros you are trying not to take your car to. We are giving you the knowledge to do this yourself for free. Even Houdini wouldn't show you where the rabbit goes.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 16, 2012, 7:04 PM
Post #12 of 19
(1495 views)
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Re: Troubleshot a lot. not sure what my issue is
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OK, you just said in a nutshell what i have believed to be true all along. You're blowing off our instructions, taking your own route and lieing about the results.
I don't have time to be wasted like this. If you can't or won't follow instructions, fix it yourself. There are other people that need help that will.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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amp123dime
Novice
Mar 16, 2012, 7:08 PM
Post #14 of 19
(1487 views)
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Re: Troubleshot a lot. not sure what my issue is
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WOW,, I didn't lie about anything. If you don't want to help that is OK. you don't have to. What specific instruction did I not follow ? Testing the fuel pressure ? I don't see a need for that when my current issue I am hoping to solve is why I am not getting a spark. Can't ignite fuel without a spark
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 16, 2012, 7:13 PM
Post #15 of 19
(1480 views)
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Re: Troubleshot a lot. not sure what my issue is
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I gave you a specific list of tests and you blew them off.
You haven't proven you have fuel pressure, you haven't proven you have injector pulse, You haven't even proven you have power supply to anything. There's nothing harder to do that try to help someone that thinks he knows more than he does.
You're on your own.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 16, 2012, 7:27 PM
Post #16 of 19
(1475 views)
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Re: Troubleshot a lot. not sure what my issue is
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If you test for injector pulse as HT stated, that would tell you if the ignition module is sending a PIP signal to the engine controller. That helps to know because it eliminates a lot of things.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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amp123dime
Novice
Mar 16, 2012, 7:28 PM
Post #17 of 19
(1472 views)
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Re: Troubleshot a lot. not sure what my issue is
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Well hammer time if you get off the merry go round. Thats OK. I know I have fuel pressure because before I changed the fuel pump I pushed the pin where you attach the pressure gauge and no fuel came out. After changing the fuel pump I pushed that same pin and fuel shot out about 10 feet. Not the best method but didn't have access to a fuel pressure gauge and it worked. Not testing anything else related to fuel pressure because.. I HAVE NO SPARK
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 16, 2012, 7:32 PM
Post #18 of 19
(1467 views)
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Re: Troubleshot a lot. not sure what my issue is
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Gee, i wish I was as smart as you. Maybe you should work for Autozone. You would fit right in there.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 16, 2012, 7:42 PM
Post #19 of 19
(1461 views)
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Re: Troubleshot a lot. not sure what my issue is
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Just to let you know. If you test for injector pulse and you have it, that tells you:
*The ignition module has power and ground
*The hall effect sensor in the distributor is producing a digital position signal to the ignition module.
If you have no trigger at the coil ground circuit and your PIPs going out, you can pretty much conclude the ignition module transistor circuitry died.
All ya had to do was answer those simple questions that was provided and there wouldn't have been so much heart ache. Good luck.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Mar 16, 2012, 7:43 PM)
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