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Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Apr 14, 2008, 5:08 PM
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Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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http://autoforums.carjunky.com/...;;page=unread#unread
Hey guys. I'm stuck with something that probably should be easy if anyone ran across this thread above. It's already a read and I can't think of any resource to know what to check next of this Lincoln that runs fine when primed and wont' restart ever warm or cold. Never happened to me in zillions of similar vehicles so I'm lost. 83 Lincoln Mark 5.0 TBI type.
Any ideas as to what to suggest for this guy?
TIA from Tom,
T
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DrElectrics
Enthusiast
Apr 14, 2008, 5:36 PM
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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I have never heard of this. I asked around the shop and no one has ever heard of it either. I will do some googling and see what I can come up with.
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dave284
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Apr 14, 2008, 5:36 PM
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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The ECC controls the priming...and if he replaced it, he had to to use the prom pak from the old one which contain the info and trying to remember.....I think it had to be reprogrammed at the dealership...not sure.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Apr 14, 2008, 5:52 PM
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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Thanks a million. You know I feel like a jerk that I just don't know right off the top of my head. As said it just plain NEVER happened like this to ANY of the countless ones along the way. I didn't even know of the EEC controlling the priming or of a dealer reset. That must be it as if you read the thread about everything else has been ruled out
Hope the guy is following here too - I'll go back and check and mark this thread to continue on.
While here - Free classic and antique service info available at 860-928-7614 --- Steve at Baker's Auto, CT. It's old enough that dealers may be of no help for parts or procedures for this when we can target the problem.
Thanks,
Tom
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dave284
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Apr 14, 2008, 6:12 PM
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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Tom, those single injectors/ and duals TBI always gave me a run for the money when they had a fuel problem and no OBII puter.....its always a headache when everythings been replaced and still the problem remains.I'll try to find a diagram in the mean while.LOL.
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buckhunter
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Apr 14, 2008, 7:11 PM
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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Hi Tom, I want on the other site, well it seems to have a few of us stumped, The one guy said the EEC tells it when to spray the gas in the throttle body, I was thinking of going for one Tuesday, but he said it has to be reset by the dealer, well I can`t take it to them if it will not run, what did the other guy mean when he said he had trouble with the duals TBI ?? I don`t know what that was, well mabie the other guy that said he was going to do some checking will find something, HEY ARE WE HAVING FUN YET!!! LOL
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DanD
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Apr 15, 2008, 4:57 AM
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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Unless I missed it I haven’t read anywhere that the fuel pump is still running during cranking or what the actual fuel pressure is during cranking?
Here’s a quote from Mitchell repair; I’ve added the bracketing.
When the ignition is in the “ON” position, The Electronic Engine Control (EEC) (computer) power relay is activated. Power is provided to the fuel pump relay and to a timer within the Electronic Control Assembly (ECA) (just a different acronym for the computer).The fuel pump runs at a reduced voltage through a resistor wire and pump relay.
If the ignition switch is NOT turned to the “START” position within one second, the ECA timing device will deactivate the fuel pump relay which in turn de-energizes the fuel pump.
When the ignition switch is turned to the “START” position, the starter relay provides power to the fuel pump, by-passing the fuel pump relay. Full system voltage is provided to the fuel pump during cranking modes.
With the ignition switch in the “ON” position and engine running, power to the fuel pump is again supplied through the fuel pump relay and resistance wire. The ECA senses engine RPM and deactivates the fuel pump relay when engine stops or engine speed fall below 120RPM.
Is the fuel pump running during cranking?
Not to disagree with Dave but I believe back then, there was no such a thing as reprogramming a Ford computer or just buying/switching the calibration pack that is mounted inside the computer; they where sold as a complete replacement units. If you didn’t have an accurate ECA number when ordering a replacement assembly and installed the wrong one; you just opened up the biggest Sh!t storm, trying to figure out why the vehicle wasn’t running properly if it ran at all.
Dan.
Canadian "EH"
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dave284
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Apr 15, 2008, 6:45 AM
Post #8 of 27
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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Buck, and others, I didn't mean to confuse anyone....I was referring to the type of throttle bodies in my past repairs I had...most of them had the same problem with not priming first, and I remember having to have the dealer to reprogram the computer on two of them....thats been some time ago, Dan has the info...but I still believe the problem is in the puter,.... just gonna have to start testing procedures...btw couldn't find them damm diagrams, sorry. LOL.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Apr 15, 2008, 6:54 AM
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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Thanks again all. I think I know what this is now. It's that "starter" relay and I don't have a clue which one it is or where. I can go look at 88 and 89 TC and it might be similar. Best bet with the read before this was it doesn't get adequate fuel during crank and loses it's pressure instantly when key is not enabling fuel pump even though all the items that might do that have been replaced.
DAN - ANYONE - DO YOU KNOW THE COLOR OF THE STARTER RELAY?? It would be the color on the skirt and or the plug even in an 83. All these years when something rarely went wrong I would see damage on wiring - hop over to get-your-own junk parts and cut off the whole area of damaged wires - solder them in color by color with a known good relay and life was good It worked as new and I never researched why or what might have caused it to begin with - they lasted the rest of the life of the car so just didn't need to know.
These (mostly the Town Cars, CVs and GMs) were around my shop like litter. Not any Marks since the 70s.
Came within an inch of getting a mint 82 Mark in Fla with just 50k in '93 and would own it now but I'd have to fly back to get it as I had driven there alone It would have been cute as it was the same colors as the 88 signature I still have as new and stored now - damn!
Dan - I'm about sure you're right that there was no computer programming or resetting in these. Match #s or the plug colors was the deal. Again - none ever needed replacing.
"buckhunter" Your answer is in the info already here - I'm close to certain. If that computer has been changed it may be hard to know now if the exact right one was used. My guess from knowing Ford antics is that there would have been a choice of just two. Somewhere in those years things were different for cars to be sold to California and later, don't know what year all cars sold to the US met both CA and MA (we have to be a pain too) standards for emissions which was the pill of a couple decades. Stickers underhood would tell you if it met all standards or not if you can still read it,
T
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DanD
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Apr 15, 2008, 7:59 AM
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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The wiring diagrams I have for these years of Fords have to be the worse ever printed. Inconsistent; from page to page and just a jumbled mess! I tried looking for this by-pass circuit at the starter relay but can’t seem to find it anywhere?
What can be tried on the vehicle; is to jumper the fuel pump for test purposes having it run all the time and then try starting the engine?
If it starts then we at least know we’re heading in the right direction?
Dan.
Canadian "EH"
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Tom Greenleaf
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Apr 15, 2008, 11:03 AM
Post #11 of 27
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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ditto: I'd be trying that trick and if that solved it I'd probably make up a way to power it during cranking only, separately and save the hair loss of finding the exact break in something somewhere. Fraud - ooooh - Ford rather had a way of routing wiring down behind engine where you couldn't get at anything and I've just run same color wire from where it started good on passenger's side and go another way to where it should have had continuity on the driver's side rather than paw thru the whole mess that goes thru that split plastic hose that makes it look neat but you just can't really get back there so easy.
I hear you with the old even pro edition manuals. Big bucks and not very helpful. I stopped buying them when so many times they just said "refer to underhood decals" - nice!
I've winged it all those years with these with just test light, continuity tests, and basic understanding of what should be happening when. These never were so over computered to be a real headache.
Thanks again. You can guess the keen interest in this was MINE and hopefully help out "buckhunter" in the mean time.
Still fighting with Momma's 96 Burp with pwr locks nonsense. Including me, FIVE seriously qualified techs haven't stumbled on an intermittent problem which works with anything attemped or replaced and recurrs the next day - go figure?!!
T
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brbettge
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Apr 15, 2008, 11:12 AM
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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Tom, the "starter relay" on this one is the same old ford starter relay and is on the right fender apron. it doesn't have anything to do with fuel. you must be talking about something else? The fuel pump relay is at the rear of the right fender apron. the closest one to the front of the car. the one next to it is the EEC power relay and i have had some problem in the past with it causing a no fuel situation. i'm not sure if the low fuel warning module is even in the circuit but it is located on the instrument panel center support brace.. sorry i'm so late getting in on this one but was out this morning. rick
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Apr 15, 2008, 11:56 AM
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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Thanks Rick for checking in on this. I wasn't thinking of the starter solonoid itself if that's the relay on the fender you were mentioning. That would be an easy diag. The biggest problem is as always with the on-line stuff is I'm not there just scoping out what is where for this model. The Marks did place somethings in different places. If I recall the cube relay for EEC has a brown skirt but doesn't shut down fuel - not sure on that either. If the design is to power the fuel pump differently just for the moment of cranking it wouldn't even be noticed so much in some of my own as they hold fuel pressure and tend to start so fast the a fast spinning engine from just the starter and a let go would leave it coasting another rev and probably start and run.
I wish I was there just testing what power gets to what when and jumping fuel pump directly and see what happens.
I'm heading out to fix a lock cylinder on a storm door for the day and probably screw that up the way things are going.
Thanks for the input,
Tom
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brbettge
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Apr 15, 2008, 12:09 PM
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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hey Tom, yeah the eec relay is the brown skirt and it will shut down fuel...either the injector pulse or the fuel pump relay (the green skirt) i don't remember which. i seem to remember a problem just like this many years ago and it ended up either being the eec relay or something in the tank on the pump assembly..can't remember which..getting too dadgummed old!!! i hate it! i do have a repair manual library from 1949 thru 1992 american and some stuff on foriegn thru 1993(wiring diagrams). all of the manuals are mitchell(including component locator-1983 to 1989) except for the really old stuff which is a mix of the old motors and some chilton(all pro stuff not k-mart or zone). just thought i'd let you know that info on the books in case you might could use something out of one of them sometime. i usually get to check my email once a day on average so give me a bit to get back if you or any of the others need something. i really do enjoy trying to help these people even tho my thoughts may not be right on the money sometimes. i've been pretty much out of it for a few years now but; like most old mechanics; just can't seem to get it out of my head! I occasionally do some stuff on justanswer.com but it's a charge place with what seems to be a bunch of flat-raters jockying for jobs..well, yeah, i was a good flat-rater in my day; then i caught a bad case of that OLD syndrome...not to mention i just plain got too old to keep up with the kids. any way, if i can be of some help anywhere, let me know, i'm at your service....rick
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Apr 15, 2008, 6:10 PM
Post #15 of 27
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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Thanks Rick,
Over all the years with these suckers it was alway relays at fault. So much so that I put an extra in every glove box of every one that still exists and showed folks how to swap them. I can't tell you how many times someone would call stuck on the road and while talking to them just tell them to WHACK the right ones or swap the A/C one for fuel or EEC when possible. You can cut the skirts off the originals and they would work - all the same as far as I can tell - just color coded for identification.
The worst was just one car that needed two at the exact same time - go figure that out??!! Another ran funky and the wires were icky at the relay so I cut them all off and got a pig tail out of a wreck to solder the new plug in and that was it - nothing else ever.
Time flew and I'm the only one left with this vintage of Fords. Didn't like them when new as each decade change cars seemed cheaper and missing more and more basics - like drip edges, vent windows REAL BUMPERS and usable trunks. 89 was the last of the vent windows and I like those.
Spring has sprung and I'm using one now instead of a 3/4 Chev truck with rides like a coal cart.
See you out there,
T
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buckhunter
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Apr 22, 2008, 5:46 PM
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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Hi Tom, & Others, Boy Tom You bring out the big guns wow LOL, ok I was away a few days for work, I want out today and I changed the brown relay as brbettge, had said, and by God it started, yes it did about five times, then right back to the no start, I changed it again and it started again a couple times, then no start, is there a way I can test the relay to see if it is being burned out? I am going to give the jumping of the fuel pump a try Wenesday, So for now if you know how I can test the relay to see if they are being shorted out, that would be a grate help, I do believe you guys are on the right track, Thanks, Be Safe, Bill
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Guest
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Apr 22, 2008, 11:01 PM
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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Sounds like a bad connection....... Check your grounds.... run a redundant ground to the fuel pump circuit @ the pump... see if that helps
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Tom Greenleaf
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Apr 23, 2008, 1:59 AM
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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Bill - Ayup - these are the big guns ! As "guest" suggested, redundant grounds can only help when they show to solve a problem.
Seems you've found the right spot - now how to know why it doesn't last?? Not sure how to test a relay except playing with a test light and watch which prongs are empowered that DO make things work and see that they do and when or if one doesn't I would blame the relay again - new or not.
I've had quite a go around with these relays. Have a gallon Zip-Lock bag full of known good used ones (OE) from known running cars when wrecked at a bone yard that let's me go wild!
One of my own (88 TC) got four replacements in about 10 miles of use over a few years - that one in storage and just gets excercised now and then. ((Kept as new))
I've taken these relays apart (not designed to) to see what clicks in there. They are what I expected - points that close with mini electro-magnets. Showing my age now these "points" when used for ignition were intended to be aligned (bet I have the only point alignment tool left in the world!) and with ignition points would show when used a while that they were perfect or not. Same thing must exist with these relays but you can't mess with them. History has shown with the relays - good ones are good indefinately and bad ones show right up.
When you get one to work several times and then it fails it would be nice to see which wires light up when working and which one quits when it fails. Many times a good hard whack on these relays with the plastic end of a screwdriver can get you home if stuck!
Dan mentioned the diagrams were not so special for these cars. I'm hoping wire colors are consistant thru the vintage of these and can just go see which ones light up on one of my own if you wish - three of these similar cars here right now - all run well, all known from new!
We'll get this fixed for good!
T
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buckhunter
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Jun 11, 2008, 10:58 AM
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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Hi Tom, well still no start, I tryed to jump the pump as told and well I think I shorted something out, I told you I had fuel to the throttle body, well after the jump try I now have no fuel there, also the wires from the green box for the fuel pump is hot all the time BUT none of the wires out of it have power, key on or off,I changed the box six times,still the same,also now after the jump try, I checked the power at that box in the trunk, well I have no power tere anymore eather, any idea what I may have blew out??, I am at my witts end, I want so bad to get this on the road as show cause it looks new, I don`t know, Thanks.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jun 11, 2008, 1:12 PM
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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Where did you jump it? Do you mean the wiring that plugs into the relay are hot as in temperature? I've seen those short to each other before without provocation. I don't know what to say except to follow wires now for a dead short,
T
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buckhunter
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Jun 11, 2008, 2:10 PM
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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Sorry Tom, I did not do a very good job with that last post, as amatter of fact it was pretty bad, by hot I meant no power, The fat pink wire with the blk ck marks on it was with power all the time, key on or off, but with the green bottom sensor in place, the three other wires have no power key on or off, as I said I tried like five other sensors and the same thing, no power to any of the other wires at the green sensor.when I touch one of the other wires with a power wire,I can hear the sensor click, but no power two the other three wires , see there is four wires on the plug that the green sensor plugs into, the pink with blk ck marks, a red, a orange one and one white or light gray, the pink has power key on or off, the other three has no power at anytime, I hope I did better this time, sorry.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jun 12, 2008, 5:20 PM
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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Sorry for late response. Arggh! Something jumped and now a new problem. Who knows now? This just complicates it further.
May take a real original wiring diagram to chase them down and verify one by one for the circuit. Whatever happened now even if fixed still leaves the original problem - arggh - agian!!
It's enough of a problem I'd buy the specific AllData info for just this car as the $25 bucks looks cheap right now with the headaches at hand,
T
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buckhunter
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Jun 12, 2008, 5:26 PM
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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Tom I would be happy to get the book if you can tell me where, heck 25 bucks is a drop in the bucket with what I have in it,LOL,but I keep seeing it goind down the road on a sunny Sunday day,LOL
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jun 12, 2008, 6:01 PM
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Re: Tom needs some help from you guys 83 Lincoln Mark
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http://www.alldata.com/ That's the home page from AllData. From there you can decide what you want - nothing free but not expensive unless you want to add more and more cars. If I recall it's $25 bucks for one car for one year and they used to let you look at a sample car and search out something whacked and it was pretty good - I tried that now quite a while ago.
We barely notice them but look at the ads that are at the bottom of the page here - they actually pay for rotating ads there and the last time I mentioned AllData - they had a clickable spot. Funny, they are Google selected no doubt based on subject line and it knows you basic locale thru an IP address.
We wish you luck with this. The cars are a lot of fun and not the pigs most think they are. May have said - I have three now (80s Lincolns)and would snap up another in a heartbeat and would love one for a Winter car again - already wasted two to rust - not mechanicals.
Let us know how you make out and try to send some pics if you can,
Tom
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Jun 12, 2008, 6:04 PM)
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buckhunter
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Jun 12, 2008, 6:17 PM
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OK Tom THANK YOU SO MUCH, and I will let you know, you guys are heaven sent, God BLESS.
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