|
|
General question about an overfilled engine crankcase-1997 Saturn
|
|
|
| |
|
|
huxley
User
Apr 8, 2008, 4:03 PM
Post #1 of 9
(4033 views)
|
|
General question about an overfilled engine crankcase-1997 Saturn
|
Sign In
|
|
Hey guys,
Would like to know your thoughts on this...
Say you have a 1997 Saturn 4 Cylinder (I forget the model, car belongs to my grandmother) with about 80,000 miles on it. The car takes 4 quarts of oil with a new filter. The service shop had been putting at least 5+ quarts in, if not more, for quite some time. She had never had me take a look at the car until about a month ago when her check engine light came on. I pulled the wires off the spark plugs and cylinder 1 was full of oil...looked like pressure had built up and blown past whatever is there (valve seal?) and wasn't firing on that cylinder. I checked the dipstick after the car was cooled down and saw that it was a good two inches past the full mark-no bs. I siphoned out the oil from cylinder 1 the best I could and told her exactly what to tell the shop. She told them and they charged her $400. This was to replace the plugs, fix whatever seal broke, change her belts (because they were soaked with oil), etc. A typical tune up I guess. My problem is this...the engine compartment is a mess, they've been overfilling the crankcase for who knows how long-and as far as I know that builds up an inordinate amount of pressure and is probably the reason her seals and gaskets are all failing on the engine. Not only could this have taken years off the engine, it also has been throwing oil onto any part that will accept it and could create a dangerous situation. I'm really ticked off about this and wanted some suggestions from you folks if you have the time. I think they should have replaced those items free of charge-they replaced the belts because they were coated in oil. I feel like the place is taking advantage of an elderly womans lack of knowledge on this subject.
Thanks for your time as always!
-Nate
|
|
| |
|
|
Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Apr 8, 2008, 8:16 PM
Post #2 of 9
(4024 views)
|
|
Re: General question about an overfilled engine crankcase-1997 Saturn
|
Sign In
|
|
On average: Engines will hold about 1 qt too much without a disaster - still to be avoided. It's not so much that they build up too much pressure but that the sump level in the oil pan is too high and parts (crankshaft) can splash in it - can be a total disaster right away if too much! Problem is proving that is was in fact overfilled - or what other reason could the oil be too full. Fuel can leak down and dilute and overfill the oil level too - same disasters can happen but you can tell by the oil.
Note: The measurement on a dipstick from the add line to the full line is generally 1 qt. That same measure isn't accurate to measure the increments by quarts over that mark. Some will real way over full with just 1/2 qt too much. Has to do with the shape of the oil pan. Motors must also be designed to tolerate being at an angle which simply puts oil too full at one end of pan or side and lower at the other. That within some norms is designed in. If too low or full and parked or run at an extreme troubles happen.
Side note: Happens to lawn mowers when serious slopes are mowed and some engines croak over that. Is the engine ok now? Hope so.
Can you show a reciept for paying for the wrong amount of oil? Then I'd bring it up with the service shop with the listed capacity in the owner's manual and make a complaint. Other proof is going to be tricky.
Are you going to bat for your grandmother with this situation? Get some proof if you can. If engine is ok and it might be you probably could just negotiate the labor out of that last bill. If engine is NOT ok there's trouble I can smell from here!
Shops of any kind that offer oil change service had better pay strict attention to capacities like this. There was a day when almost everything out there took 4 quarts and 5 with the filter - no such thing anymore for a LONG time.
Here to help if we can,
T
|
|
| |
|
|
Guest
Anonymous Poster
Apr 8, 2008, 9:51 PM
Post #3 of 9
(4020 views)
|
|
Re: General question about an overfilled engine crankcase-1997 Saturn
|
Sign In
|
|
Hey Tom,
As usual, thank you for the fast and thoughtful reply! I really appreciate the explanation.
My grandmother has a receipt from the most recent work done showing that she was charged for 5 quarts of oil. I'm going to have her check her other receipts (she, like most grandmothers I have met, keeps meticulous records regarding most everything) and I'll betcha anything they all read 5 quarts or more. These are the same guys that sold the used car to her and I never liked the people there and was always suspicious about the guy-and I'm really not the type to hold prejudice against any mechanic for the simple fact that they're a mechanic. There are questionable cracks in the body of the car and I see lots of overspray in strange places-looks like it was painted at some point and they didn't do the best tape job.
How would I know if the engine is ok? Quite frankly, to me anyway, the car SOUNDS terrible but I'm really touchy when it comes to engine noise and I'm not always right-might just be the model or something. Are there any tests I can do in her driveway to find out more about it?
I'd like to go in to the shop and, at the very least, get a full refund for the last batch of work that was done. You should have seen under the hood-oil EVERYWHERE. Seriously, it looked like someone just took used motor oil and did an avant garde painting.
So-how would you approach this? And if I find out that they've been putting 5 quarts in for a long time, what sort of effect might that have over an extended period?
Thanks again Tom,
Nate
|
|
| |
|
|
Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Apr 9, 2008, 5:58 AM
Post #4 of 9
(4011 views)
|
|
Re: General question about an overfilled engine crankcase-1997 Saturn
|
Sign In
|
|
There were a couple Saturns in my care back when. Both nice folks who wicked abused cars - not my thing. Noted on one at least the engine was just plain noisy and was never asked to pin anything down. Neither ever quit and weren't in for every detail so I have minimal overall hands on with these cars.
Just looked and couldn't just find the oil capacity of Saturn engines so easy. What does the owner's manual say? Lot's of cars come thru with like 4.6 qts., US for example and plenty of other assorted #s.
Oil is sold everywhere in qts and in some places "litres" which is a tad more as we know and they'll tolerate the 1.8 extra oz when just adding ONE no problem. Cars simply have to allow for angles and the slosh of oil for turns, stopping, starting, hills etc.
Oil all over the engine now: For the most part it won't hurt anything! I suggest cleaning it up by hand dry, with towels - as I'm not in favor of powerwashing engines with water and leave that as my opinion. Select spots may need degreasing - depends on what is found where and how bad. Air filters won't like beinng oiled so they and housings must be free of oil. Some rubber parts won't do well soaked in oil - particularly cooling system rubber parts, hoses the weak link.
Can you check out this engine and what tools available? If no major tools handy just listen to it - noise noted but is it even and stays runnning well in N and in gear? Engine off - look inside oil filler cap - look clean or sludgy in there? Engine idling - pull dipstick part way up - electric cooling fan off is best, and hold a smokey stick (cigarette works ) near the tube and the smoke should draw down the tube. Most engines that will do that are sound as far as compression! Check tailpipe for oiliness and of course visual smoke not good.
An overfilled engine (oil overfilled) would be apt to have oil in excess where it could cause hydraulic problems such as LOCK and could bend rods or who knows.
The gasket leak might have been needed and could have been a PVC problem causing pressure in crankcase and oil gets pushed out of gaskets. If that only engine could be fine. If because of excessive blow-by, bent valves with worn guides, the engine is in trouble!
What else can you note without much for equipment or do you want to send this elsewhere for an overall assesment with compression test. Has other maintenance been done along the way - tune-up items, timing belt job(s), coolant service etc., and just the same check you would do it you were buying the car now.
What would you like to do next?
T
|
|
| |
|
|
Guest
Anonymous Poster
Apr 9, 2008, 7:41 AM
Post #6 of 9
(4008 views)
|
|
Re: General question about an overfilled engine crankcase-1997 Saturn
|
Sign In
|
|
Hey Tom and Dan,
The owners manual for the car reads exactly 4 quarts with filter. I think Dan is right with it being a SL2, I am not familiar with Saturn models at all.
As far as the condition-I still don't know. I do remember seeing a decent amount of build up or the black death/sludge from where I could see down the oil filler area. I've seen worse, but only one other time. I'll try out the cheap vacuum test you mention and see what happens. I mean, the thing still runs, but it doesn't run well in my opinion. I'm a motorcycle guy at heart and that knowledge has not carried over well to cars thus far-but my thoughts are, at the very least, the shop should refund her the cost of one quart of oil for however many times they changed it with too much.
Oh, and here is where a lot of my concerns come from-I read this on a website called "carbibles"
What happens when an engine is overfilled with oil?
So you topped up the engine when it was warm after getting a faulty dipstick reading, or you put too much oil in when you changed it yourself. What's the worst that could happen? Well the problem with this is that the next time the engine is run, the windage in the crankcase and other pressures generated by the oil pump, etc. place a great strain on the seal on the rear main bearing.
Eventually, often much sooner than the ordinary man in the street might expect, the rear main bearing seal ruptures, and the engine becomes a 'leaker'. If you've got a manual gearbox, this means one thing: this oil goes right onto the flywheel and the face of the clutch disc. A lubricated clutch is A Bad Thing. If this still goes unnoticed, the front seal is the next to go, and the engine then becomes a 'gusher' (or to be more colourful, it starts pissing oil all over the place). As well as smothering the clutch with oil from the rear, the oil now coming from the front leak will be neatly distributed about the engine bay as it hits the front pulley - often propelling it out as far as the brake discs. At the same time as this Hollywood disaster movie is unfolding outside the engine, things aren't working out any better on the inside. As you can see from the diagram, the correct oil level is really close to the rotating crank. Overfilling will mean the crank dips into the oil and churns it into a froth. Froth is good on certain types of coffee but not good in an engine. The mixture of aerated oil will be forced into the bearings and in case you didn't know, air is not a lubricant. Typically this means that bearing damage will follow quite rapidly, especially if you are driving on a motorway. You'll know bearing damage when you get it. The engine smells like a garage mechanic cooking over an open flame and the noise coming from the engine is the sort of thing you'd normally hear in vaudeville plays when a piano is pushed down a flight of stairs. As if that all wasn't bad enough, the excess oil gets thrown up into the piston bores where the piston rings have a hard time coping with the excess oil and pressure. It gets into the combustion chamber and some of it will get out into the exhaust system unburned resulting in a nice patina of oil all over the platinum surfaces of your catalytic converter. This renders it utterly useless for good.
Well, you did ask.
Anyway, thanks again Tom and Dan for the help and I'll see where grandma would like to go from here, if anywhere.
|
|
| |
|
|
brbettge
User
Apr 9, 2008, 7:51 AM
Post #7 of 9
(4007 views)
|
|
Re: General question about an overfilled engine crankcase-1997 Saturn
|
Sign In
|
|
Tom, didn't read through the entire thread but I have one bit of info that might be of help. I have had many vehicles come in over the years with this same perceived problem. I have learned the first check to make and the first question to ask is "is this the correct dipstick?" I've found many vehicles with the wrong stick which causes false readings. just a thought..rick
|
|
| |
|
|
Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Apr 9, 2008, 10:21 AM
Post #8 of 9
(4004 views)
|
|
Re: General question about an overfilled engine crankcase-1997 Saturn
|
Sign In
|
|
Nate, Dan and Rick:
Nate, Don't forget to log in or you show up as a guest - we know it's you! We are all on the same page and this is already a read - my fault.
In Summary: A used car has been overfilled by a quart (is that only 1 qt?) over a couple or more oil changes. Leaks happened and gaskets were replaced. The question is whether the overfill caused this. This is a 97 80,000 mile used Saturn something BOUGHT USED.
Dan made the point that ONE quart is likely not an issue or cause - agreed 100%. The exception would be if the car was used or parked and run at what I would consider ridiculous angles. I badgered the point - sorry.
Note: I think we all agree that knowingly and constantly adding too much oil is not a good practice - pros should know better but let's not blame them just so fast for the problems that have happened, car was used!
Dan guessed this was the OHC engine and those did have common issues with PCV and filling up spark plug holes when gaskets gave out. The oil everywhere was probaby a PCV line blowout and quickly makes quite a mess.
Note II: In checking oils and fluids car must be level. For engine oil a wait time is always suggested or it can misread as a bit low when not.
We now know the exact refill amount of 4 qts - good.
Rick made the dipstick point: A whole line of 80 Ford (for example) 302cid or 5.0 engines got those all screwed up when built new - I own 3 now and dealt with some unbelievable # of these engines. Dipsticks were so far off with known 5 qt total fill with new filter that it was scary. All I ever changed oil on I would fill with just 4qts on purpose - wait and mark the dipstick as the spot to add a qt. Then add the quart and mark the "full" mark. I would grind off all info that was on the sticks and make a common line or divot that was clear and used in many vehicles that don't print english on dipsticks. Some of these when the originals read "add one qt" would read way over full! Not one ever had a problem but they weren't really overfull either.
The bit you copied and pasted from some other place is a bit hysterical and has plain mistakes. Oil doesn't care how much is in the sump - you could design an engine to hold 100 qts but it must be at the right level in relation to moving parts above the oil level. A rear main does not just blow out as that article suggested or I misread something. That seal must simply hold oil from spilling out and does need to hold the slight vacuum the engines require in the entire crankcase area which includes the valve covers and more. When accellerating hard the oil would rush to the back of a traditional layout engine and would cause damage if that wasn't thought of new. In this car a hard turn would slosh it side to side also and must tolerate that and does.
I kind of doubt the repairs done were out of line. The important thing now is clear the air with this shop about NOT using too much oil AND inform your grandmother to check or have checked the oil at regular intervals in between changes - we all should do that even when we think a car doesn't consume any.
Nate: You are a good guy to watch out for your grandmother! I think you can work with the same shop with a good understanding and if you really think something's wrong there find another and bring your grandmother with you and make a schedule or routine services and and everyone will feel better about this. I really don't think many shops or tech's really are out to get you or rip you off - YOU aleards know how difficult from some other threads how things can get.
Be well,
Tom
|
|
| |
|
|
huxley
User
Apr 9, 2008, 3:06 PM
Post #9 of 9
(3996 views)
|
|
Re: General question about an overfilled engine crankcase-1997 Saturn
|
Sign In
|
|
Hey Tom,
Alright sounds good. Sorry for not logging back in, I lost power here between those posts and forgot it logged me out after that.
A few things I did want to mention-she's had the car since at least 2002 or before. This could have been going on since that time. In fact, I would bet it has been. I'll have her check. I don't have time to say much else right now, sorry! I appreciate the time you put into these posts Tom, seriously, it really helps me out!
Take care and I'll be in touch soon,
Nate
|
|
| |
|
Auto Repair Home
SEARCH
WHO'S 
LOG 
mdma pills for sale : WhatsApp +33758633852
Drive Shaft Repair
2006 Toyoto Camry XLE Driver Side Electric Window Trouble
Grounding Cable, 2017 Jeep Renegade Trailhawk
equipment
