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RoboDisko
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Sep 5, 2013, 9:17 PM
Post #1 of 32
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Eagle Vision won't start
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Summary:
- 1996 Eagle Vision
- Turn over but won't start
- Couldn't find spark
- Couldn't find fuel in cylinder
- No relevant error codes on EMC
- Read on for more details...
I'm pretty much brand new to vehicle repair, so this will probably be fairly easy. I am also fairly experienced with a multimeter and computer repair. Have a 1996 Eagle Vision Esi 3.5 liter with 146k miles that won't start. The engine spins fine when you try to start it, nothing.
I have been trying things for a while. I think I have concluded that there is no spark. (I removed the spark plug from the hole and connected it to it's cable, and grounded the side to a nice bare spot on the engine at night, and saw no cool sparks. I did this with multiple different spark plugs, and obviously while trying to start the engine).
I think the fuel injectors are also having issues, because I used my multimeter on both of the wires and couldn't find any significant voltage on either when the key was turned. I do know there is fuel in the fuel injector supply line, but I don't think it's making it to the cylinder. After attempting to start for like 5 seconds, I rather quickly removed a spark plug, and it was dry, although the cylinder smelled a bit like fuel. (I'm told they always do). I have uncovered the fuel pump and listened to it while the vehicle was attempted to be started, and it made a sound that I would assume is normal operation, and I also head a bit of liquid moving, so I assume it is working fine.
I did get an OBD2 reader, and the only code I got was related to exhaust, which I'm pretty sure has nothing to do with the engine not starting, because the catalac converter is missing and the check engine light was on before it stopped working.
I am suspicious of the timing belt because another form thread had similar issues and it was their problem. I am also suspicious of the crank and maybe the cam sensors, but I can't find them. I also should mention that anytime the key is on, the rpm meter goes to about 250 and stays there as long as the key is turned. Even if the starter is turning the engine at probably well above 250rpm, the meter stays the same (this further makes me suspicious of the crank sensor, I'm assuming it's in charge of rpm)
How did this happen? The car was driving normally, and was parked with nothing notable about when it was turned off. A few minutes later when I tried to start it, it started doing this. It has been a bit unpredictable about starting lately, It has had 2 periods(each lasting a few days or so) of time when it randomly wouldn't even turn the starter motor on when asked to do so. One of these times was fixed the same time the battery cables were, the other magically went away.
Ok so this IS my first time trying to repair a car. There are so many thing wrong that I can't help but think it is something rather simple(like a wire) that is causing many problems. I don't think the rpm meter, spark plugs, and fuel injectors all just spontaneously broke. So is there something obvious that is wrong with it? Or what would you suggest doing next? My dad (yea he is the one that broke it) plans on replacing the spark plugs and the fuel filter because these items have had a history of causing issues in this vehicle, which I don't think will hurt, but I don't think will fix it. It need that maintenance anyways, but it really needs the fix that will actually fix it.
Thank you for any information you can provide!
(This post was edited by RoboDisko on Sep 6, 2013, 4:12 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Sep 6, 2013, 2:42 AM
Post #2 of 32
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Re: Eagle Vision won't start
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If someone can read that run on garbage more power to them - I can't,
AMC = AlMost Complete so what did you expect?
T
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Sep 6, 2013, 4:46 AM
Post #3 of 32
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Re: Eagle Vision won't start
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Check engine light come on when you turn the key on? Have you checked for trouble codes stored in the ECU?
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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RoboDisko
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Sep 6, 2013, 6:11 AM
Post #4 of 32
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Re: Eagle Vision won't start
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I thought it was fairly well written, I mean would you rather I didn't include details? And I guess I didn't use very good terminology either...
When the key is turned the check engine light turns on. When my obd2 reader was plugged in it was blinking, not sure if it does that when it's not plugged in. As I said the only error code stored on the system was related to exhaust, which is probably because it has no catalac converter, and completely unrelated to the fact it won't start.
(This post was edited by RoboDisko on Sep 6, 2013, 6:26 AM)
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RoboDisko
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Sep 6, 2013, 6:31 AM
Post #5 of 32
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Re: Eagle Vision won't start
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I simplified it for the simple of mind.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Sep 6, 2013, 6:44 AM
Post #6 of 32
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Re: Eagle Vision won't start
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Just wanted to know if the ECU was powering up or not.
You stated you were checking for power at the injector, but didn't see any power. Did you check it without removing the injector connector?
I believe on this set up when the ASD relay is energized by the ECU power is sent to the injectors on the dark green/orange wires of the injectors and the ignition coil pack. The ASD relay is powered on for a couple of seconds when the ignition is first turned on and stays on when the ECU is detecting crank/cam sensor signals.
If you don't have power to the injectors or coil pack, you need to see if the ASD relay is being energized by the ECU and power is getting to the injectors and coil pack. If the relay is being energized by the ECU when you first turn the ignition on for a few seconds, you need to check the outputs of the cam and crank sensors while cranking the engine. The cam and crank sensors are both hall effect and can be checked with a lab scope.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Sep 6, 2013, 6:46 AM)
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RoboDisko
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Sep 6, 2013, 4:29 PM
Post #7 of 32
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Re: Eagle Vision won't start
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Ok, updates for that last post:
After properly checking for power on the fuel injectors, I found it. I can also hear them making a normal working sounding sound. I also think that they are spraying fuel fine, because after turning the ignition on and off several times, one of the cylinders smell fairly strongly of fuel. Maybe the reason that the spark plugs aren't wet is because the injectors aren't spraying on them, or because compression is causing evaporation. Whatever the case, I THINK the fuel delivery system is delivering fuel.
I also noticed that when the engine was being started, that the voltage on the fuel injector seemed to be working as I would assume is normal (my multimeter give a bit laggy voltage reading, but it was quickly jumping and falling.) Also the ASD relay seemed to click normally when the ignition was first turned on.
So right now I think the lack of spark is the problem, but I could easily be wrong.
What next? I don't know where the cam or crank sensors are located at. A picture would be great, or detailed text would work. I don't have a "lab scope", but I do have a oscilloscope that sounds like it performs a similar function.
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RoboDisko
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Sep 7, 2013, 2:41 PM
Post #8 of 32
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Re: Eagle Vision won't start
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Updates:
After a ton of looking on the internet and looking at the engine, I found the crank shaft position sensor. I think it's broken. With my mutlimeter on ground and signal of the sensor, the voltage was like .03V and went unaffected by a magnet. Anouther thing I found interesting, the voltage supply for the sensor was at 8.81V. Isn't it supposed to be either very near to 5v or 8v? 8.81V is almost a whole extra volt. Is the ECU having voltage control issues?
So shall I replace the crank shaft position sensor and see what happens?
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Sep 7, 2013, 5:09 PM
Post #9 of 32
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Re: Eagle Vision won't start
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The power supply voltage to the sensor does state 5 volts, but it could be wrong. I've seen 5,8,10, and 12 used to power those hall effects. If you don't see a digital signal coming from it while cranking the engine, and you have good power and ground to the sensor, it is possible it is the culprit.
I've used a soldering iron...the ones with the trigger to see if the sensor would activate. Sometimes using that is inconclusive though. I've seen a bad sensor trigger from the electromagnet field from the solder gun, but wouldn't trigger when the interrupter passed through it.
if you have a scope that is the ideal tool to use to check it. Connect your probe to the signal circuit and look for a digital signal while cranking the engine.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Sep 7, 2013, 5:26 PM)
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RoboDisko
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Sep 7, 2013, 5:50 PM
Post #10 of 32
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Re: Eagle Vision won't start
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Ok, I did buy a new crank sensor, but when I got home it was pouring rain, I installed it anyways, but it didn't start when I tried it. Sure I couldn't even hear the engine over the rain (I could feel it), but it didn't start instantly. I'll work on it some more when it's not pouring rain.
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RoboDisko
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Sep 7, 2013, 6:39 PM
Post #11 of 32
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Re: Eagle Vision won't start
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With the new one installed there is still no spark. What should I try next?
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Double J
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Sep 7, 2013, 9:08 PM
Post #12 of 32
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Re: Eagle Vision won't start
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Have you checked the Timing Belt?
Before you jump thru too many hoops,
Take one of the timing covers loose at the top and peek in there while someone tries to start the car,
See if the cams are turning?
(This post was edited by Double J on Sep 7, 2013, 9:09 PM)
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Sep 8, 2013, 8:42 AM
Post #13 of 32
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Re: Eagle Vision won't start
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Even if the timing belt snapped, it should still generate a crank signal though.
Watch this video on how to test a crank sensor( the prefered method is with an O scope):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_kK6U8a64
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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Discretesignals
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Sep 8, 2013, 6:48 PM
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Re: Eagle Vision won't start
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Your right DJ, he should first check to make sure the timing belt is ok and the cams and crank are in synch. I figured the OP knew how to check hall effects and has an O scope, so I was hoping to make his job a little easier.
You can check it without removing the covers, by using a DSO and looking at the cam and crank sensor waveform patterns. I got access to a 3.5L CKP and CMP known good waveform, so you have a reference. But having no CKP activity makes that test useless.
If not, cover removal is your only option, unless you do a compression test, but as stated you should still have CKP activity if the belt came apart or you have some other mechanical timing related issue going on.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Sep 8, 2013, 6:49 PM)
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RoboDisko
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Sep 9, 2013, 3:21 PM
Post #17 of 32
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Re: Eagle Vision won't start
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I finally found some more time to work on the car. I was planning on hooking up the oscilloscope to the crank sensor output, but as I was going for the wire, I noticed something I had previously missed; the coil wasn't plugged in. Apparently, when I was installing the crank sensor In the pouring rain I had missed that little detail. After being plugged in, started up just fine, apart from some bad smelling smoke. So the problem was the crank sensor. I have a few more questions though. I noticed that the sensor was getting 8.83V, and I heard It was supposed to get 5v. Is this possibly the cause of the last sensor breaking? Should I be concerned that the new crank sensor is going to break because of the excess voltage?
Also, my dad said that the car has a head gasket issue. The issues mostly entails a bit of oil leaking into the cylinders, but mostly just 1 of the cylinders. He said that he planned on going the avoid repair route, and instead just top of the oil and frequently replace the spark plugs more frequently than normal. I think he has been doing this for several years. What do you guys think? Is the head gasket worth replacing? Would someone like me, who likes building robots and electric go carts, but that fixing this car was the first thing I've fixed on a combustion engine, be able to do a repair like that? Or is the repair even worth the time?
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Hammer Time
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Sep 9, 2013, 3:26 PM
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Re: Eagle Vision won't start
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I seriously doubt that is a head gasket causing the oil consumption. How did he come up with that conclusion?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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RoboDisko
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Sep 9, 2013, 4:55 PM
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I made the oil consumption sound worse then it is. He just has to occasionally check and top off the oil. I don't know where he came up with that conclusion, but I'm guessing a mechanic told it to him because I don't know who else would.
And I'll check the crank sensor voltage again.
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RoboDisko
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Sep 9, 2013, 7:42 PM
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Re: Eagle Vision won't start
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The crank sensor running voltage is about 8.24V.
I haven't taken the vehicle for a drive yet, because it desperately needs an oil change and some coolant. After running for about 5 minutes at idle, the coolant tempature hit 90C (measured with OBDII), and the dripping wet radiator started "smoking" (I think it was actually steam) where the coolant comes into it, so i turned it off.
Do you think that running voltage will give future issues? And do you think a head gasket replacement is worth the effort, or even do-able by me?
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Hammer Time
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Sep 10, 2013, 2:45 AM
Post #22 of 32
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Again, your oil consumption is not caused by a bad head gasket. There is some other reason like rings or valve seals. I don't know how anyone could have come to the conclusion the head gasket caused that. There is no test that could confirm or indicate that unless he physically sees oil leaking externally from the head gasket.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Sep 10, 2013, 2:46 AM)
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RoboDisko
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Sep 10, 2013, 6:43 AM
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Ok I just talked to him about it. He says he came to the conclusion because oil was leaking into the cylinder, and he says the only possible cause is the head gasket. Wikipedia seems to support that the head gasket can cause oil to leak into the engine:
Its purpose is to seal the cylinders to ensure maximum compression and avoid leakage of coolant or engine oil into the cylinders
Anyways, you guys are the experts. I know there is oil getting into the cylinder, because when I replaced the spark plug, the tube that goes down to it had a decent amount of oil (presumably worked into in on the countless attempts to start the engine in which it would not start.) So what do you think is the cause of the oil leaking into the cylinder is?
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RoboDisko
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Sep 10, 2013, 7:10 AM
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Ok fine that was stupid. I know I dint know much about engines. What is the difficulty of repair of a valve cover?
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