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Burning Hydrox in your car or truck
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Jeff Norfolk
Enthusiast
Aug 29, 2008, 7:03 PM
Post #2 of 10
(1585 views)
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Re: Burning Hydrox in your car or truck
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I have my doubts about all of these types of systems. It seems that it would take more energy than 12 volts to utilize the hydrogen that is cracked out of water to work for the cars benefit. Auto manufactures are spending a ton of money developing hydrogen fuel cells that burn efficiently and safely. It surely can't be as easy as these folks make sound. Just my thought.
Jeff
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Guest
Anonymous Poster
pr@burnhydrox.com
Aug 29, 2008, 7:52 PM
Post #3 of 10
(1583 views)
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Re: Burning Hydrox in your car or truck
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There is a common belief that supplemental hydrogen systems take more energy to 'crack' the water than would be gained from burning it. The reality is that a small amount of hydrogen added to the combustion process does in fact produce more usable energy by burning the fuel more completely at the start of the ignition cycle. The result is more energy transferred to the pistons downstroke closer to TDC. Another benefit is cleaner exhaust. 
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carjunky
Enthusiast
Aug 29, 2008, 10:17 PM
Post #4 of 10
(1577 views)
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Re: Burning Hydrox in your car or truck
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10-5-6-6
I've also thought that as well, but if you think about it this unit runs when the car is active right.... so the alternator is really doing the work for you...
It's a really simple concept, but believable.
And that pdf from the us gov, is showing that they are looking heavily into this.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Aug 30, 2008, 10:00 AM
Post #5 of 10
(1564 views)
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Re: Burning Hydrox in your car or truck
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Just a note AGAIN on tricks like this: The 12v a vehicle makes for it's use USES real HP to make hence costing energy that is left available to propell the vehicle would yeild more!
The hydrogen craze is about the long known fact that hydrogen is a good fuel but doesn't just come out of thin air or water so easily. It takes tons of energy to extract/separate it. Then it can be stored for use later. On demand hydrogen simply must add up to a net loss.
Think. Why not put a belt driven alternator on an electric car to make more electricity to charge its own batteries?? Get the picture? Another - use electric pumps to pump water back up the river to go thru electric turbines again to make electricity - no free lunch folks!
What can be done and there's tons of waste available is to capture that waste in a manner and a form for use on demand later or elsewhere. Fuel burning engines still make tons of heat - an untapped energy IMO.
The huge hurdle is still that batteries weigh too much for the energy they can return later and cost energy to move them. Picture this: Load an electric tractor trailer with charged batteries and using some of that charge to move it. Leave NYC with fully charged batteries and arrive in LA with nothing left and they need recharging there. Dang fossile fuel can leave NYC with 20,000 gallons of fuel, use 1,000 to deliver it to LA and keep 1,000 for the return trip to do it over again. Therin lies the the reason why plain fossile fuel is such a sticking point for engergy - it's already been made and certainly is a finite resource and we are stuck with it till we can outsmart that issue. Keep thinking and trying but recognize dead ends,
T
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toddo
New User
Aug 30, 2008, 12:52 PM
Post #6 of 10
(1558 views)
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Re: Burning Hydrox in your car or truck
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Hi Tom,
You are correct that there is no free lunch here. It does take electricity to separate the hydrogen from water but the truth is that is doesn't "take tons of energy to extract/separate it."
Most brute force electrolysis units on the market today are approaching 80 to 90 percent Faraday efficiency. We're talking about using electricity in the range of 10 - 20 Amps at 12 volts. This will generate from 1 to 2 liters of hydrox gas per minute. While the amount of gas produced wont run a car engine, it does help combust the gas or diesel fuel more thoroughly inside the engine. It is the same concept as propane injection for a diesel engine.
If we increase the rate of combustion of those hydrocarbon molecules already being burned (think explosion compared to a fire) we end up actually gaining more usable work from the same amount of fuel. The hydrocarbons will burn closer to top dead center rather than after TDC when the piston is already starting to travel down the cylinder. The increased rate of combustion provides more "push" to the piston rather than the gas just expanding as the piston moves away.
Drawing 10 or 20 Amps is not a big strain for most vehicles and the net gains by getting more usable work from the same amount of fuel offset the small amount of horse power used by the alternator. Heck, even if there were no mileage gains and all we got was cleaner exhaust, IMO it would still be worth it.
*
Chinese proverb - The man who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the man doing it.
Limelight Systems LLC
Supplemental Hydrogen On Demand Systems
http://burnhydrox.com
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carjunky
Enthusiast
Aug 30, 2008, 2:34 PM
Post #7 of 10
(1552 views)
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Re: Burning Hydrox in your car or truck
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Lol nice whipping out the Chinese proverb's...
Truth is didn't people say Michael Phelps couldn't win 8 golds... done. Said man would never fly...Done.
I would bet a farm (if I owned one) that at one point or another everything we have today, was the result of someone saying it couldn't be done, and another driving forward with the dream.
I believe this because with a gasoline engine, the alternator would have enough power to run the electrolysis units we aren't talking about running the entire car on hydrox, just attaching this unit to a vaccum line to add it to the engine just like pour gas additives to the gas tank this is adding it striaght to the firing chamber.
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toddo
New User
Aug 30, 2008, 2:54 PM
Post #8 of 10
(1547 views)
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Re: Burning Hydrox in your car or truck
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LOL, I knew all those fortune cookies would save me some day.  Carjunky, you are absolutely correct! There was a time when people wouldn't sail the ocean because they didn't want to fall off the world. I'm glad somebody decide to try it and found the new world because I'm pretty happy living here.
Think of all those people around the turn of the century who said the horseless carriage would never work and wasn't needed. With over 600 million cars in the world today, I guess we can say they were wrong in their thinking.
I have never been one for hearing the excuse that it can't be done. I read that as meaning we just haven't found a way to do it yet.
The addition of hydrox gas is exactly like using a fuel additive and is something that we know how to do!
*
Chinese proverb - The man who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the man doing it.
Limelight Systems LLC
Supplemental Hydrogen On Demand Systems
http://burnhydrox.com
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Aug 30, 2008, 5:14 PM
Post #9 of 10
(1542 views)
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Re: Burning Hydrox in your car or truck
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Funny about the horseless carriage. The real problem was folks depended too much on the horse to remember the way home which they really do!
No stone should be left unturned or idea squelched in the persuit of more efficiency. This latest jump in fuel prices is my third and the rumors of sciences being withheld by oil companies and auto makers in bed with each other alway dominated and there was a carb that could make a Granada get 70 MPG - but of course an oil company bought the rights to squish the concept or secret as to how. Then I watched as the Japanese ran all over the US with then the cost effictive fuel efficient cars considered junk to real American Iron and to witness market share lost by then the un beatable US car makers was proof that if some secret really was available then why would they let it ruin them - which it has yet again!
Over all these decades - actually over a century, engineering has cut down friction, once an obsticle, make things strong without unnecessary weight and exact the max power that a four stroke engine could suck out of a gallon of gasoline as the example. This (IMO as I don't have exacting percentages) is still only tapping 50% of the potential and TMK - HEAT was the byproduct left to contol for one but near 100% wasted.
Then my whacked interest in A/C which makes no sense for a New Englander but always fascinated me took hold and there we go again making more heat to achieve cool? That and making the heat when most unwanted - a total waste of energy but allows for lousy ventilated cars to be cool and mankind to prosper in climates once unforgiving with excessive heat.
We got stuck on an "only" way to make cool (extract heat if you are a physics geek) was to compress a gas to a liquid and evaporate it where wanted. I'm gettin' old for this stuff but why can't we take the known waste heat and boil water to the rapid expansion of it boiling and spin a compressor at least? A steam engine was the force of capturing the expansion of water boiling ---- orginally burning coal but wood could do in a jam. The trail to the West had water stops which was available along the way but the fuel lasted.
Hey - understood that hydrogen in small amounts can further maximize the power available in a fuel burning engine. Making hydrogen transportable for later use requires compressing it and still a great idea with the problem of available refills not at the ready just yet.
Agreed with encouraging all the ideas and bar none. I just find that the lack of attention to known waste heat isn't getting noticed in the mix of ideas.
Being an optimist, I still maintain that it's useful to call it a success when something is found NOT to work and can be explained why, that you haven't failed but have succeeded in discovering what doesn't work and continue on with what still might,
T
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toddo
New User
Sep 4, 2008, 6:51 PM
Post #10 of 10
(1508 views)
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Re: Burning Hydrox in your car or truck
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Hey Tom,
Great post! I too, was there when the Japanese began flooding the market with cars in the early 70's. Funny how what used to be options (delay wipers, cup holders, etc.) on American iron quickly turned into standard items after that.
Advances in engineering and science have always been an uphill battle. Most people resist change no matter how much it is to their benefit. Since I've been a kid, I've heard stories about frictionless engines and vapor carbs and the like that had cars getting in excess of 200 MPG. Is it true? I cannot answer that with any certainty, but knowing how big businesses operate, I know that if it does not directly benefit their bottom line, the idea is most likely scrapped.
You are right that heat is an indicator of poor efficiency. Think of the common lightbulb, all that heat wasted just to produce light. Then along came the flourescent and then the LED both of which are now capable of producing as much light as a lightbulb with a fraction of the energy required. Heat in an ICE has always seemed like an untapped resource to me as well. Maybe we can come up with a way to tap that and turn it into some usable form of energy.
Having lived in the Northeast for most of my life, my only knowledge about A/C is to roll the window down and drive faster for more cooling. The concept of compressing and evaporating a gas has always seemed to be somehow inefficient with regard to the heat that must be extracted in order to drive the process.
While I am not an advocate for compressed hydrogen use in vehicles, perhaps one day we will tap the potential to not only generate electricity from a hydrogen powered fuel cell but to also be able to extract and use the waste heat to generate power. I know that compressed hydrogen is as safe as, if not safer than gasoline but the idea of 'Big Oil' being replaced by 'Big Hydrogen' is not what I have in mind.
There is currently an exploding interest in alternative energies, not just solar, wind, water and hydrogen, but also into technologies that would break the laws of physics. Cold fusion type of stuff. There are some promising and incredible technologies but for many of these researchers, it seems that conspiracy theories and men in black are all too real. Until we can put a stop to this type of censorship by greedy interests, all efforts to think out of the box will most likely result in a failed effort.
I agree that if you can explain why something doesn't work, then it is not a failure. Unfortunately for a lot of people, they have no interest in why it doesn't work, only that it doesn't and do not look any further into the possibilities. I have to wonder how many times Einstein erased has chalkboard before he hit on E=MC2.
*
Chinese proverb - The man who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the man doing it.
Limelight Systems LLC
Supplemental Hydrogen On Demand Systems
http://burnhydrox.com
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