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Blown head gasket or rings
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wildbill07
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Mar 19, 2009, 9:40 AM
Post #1 of 26
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Blown head gasket or rings
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As you can tell I am new here, so any help is appreciated.
89 honda civic wagon 1500 automatic 150K miles.
Bought this car 2 weeks ago for fuel economy and it checked as follows before I bought it.
NO!!! leaks and all fluids looked good, never wrecked, head gasket and timing belt/chain replaced 30K ago, gets 30mpg, 180psi across all 4 pistons, runs and drives great and did I mention no leaks?
After 2 days the oil light comes on and I am 1-1/2 qts low so add some. 3 days later same thing. I recheck for leaks and NOTHING. 3-4 days later same thing, still no leaks and it doesn't smoke at ALL.
So th other night the light comes on again and I tell myself I will put some oil in it the next day after school. On my way to school coming to a stop the light comes on and the motor dies, I try to restart it but it wont fire. Later in the day I go to tow it back to my place and i try to start it. sounds like the starter is not engagin so i test it and it is. So I pull the plugs and check compression............... i got nothing at all in all 4 pistons.
I hand cranked the motor and it turns smooth so I am thinking head gasket, no metal to metal feel?????? Or could I have blown all 4 sets of rings and I need to drain the oil to look for metal in it?
TY
Bill
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Mar 19, 2009, 12:31 PM
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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Arggh! Third time oil light and found VERY low but no evidence! It had to go somewhere - what did the plugs look like?
From even compression to zero and able to turn it by hand suggest valve timing is way off which still doesn't really account for the radical oil consumption with no trace.
It's good I guess that you can turn the engine as I was worried about it seizing on you. If it did it sure wouldn't turn by hand and if it freed up somehow it would show something other than zero for compression unless there was a dramatic breakage of pistons or the valve timing (timing belt lost its spot or broke) is off.
I'll see if there are other suggestions but I haven't heard of a head gasket or all rings doing that to compression quite so quickly. One or two cylinders, maybe but not all of them.
This doesn't sound like it's going to be good news for this old car
T
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Guest
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Mar 19, 2009, 1:04 PM
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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T
thanks for the reply.
The oil deal is really weird cause it does not leak and it does not smoke. But you can see some black carbon deposit at th muffler tip but not bad at all.
Plugs look good might be running a bit hot since they look a little asheee (unless i am diagonsing what the cause of the ash color). Timing belt did not break and as i mentioned it is new within 30K miles and even if it did jump or got way out of timing I would still have some type of reading for my psi.
Same as you i have never heard of a gasket or ALL the rings blowing in all pistons. And still be able to turn the motor over and not have any sounds of damage.
I have decided to pull the head and check the gasket and of curse then i can see the cylinder walls for damage. I'm almost done and will report back with what I find.
Thing that would piss me off is if on a Honda the timing could get out of wack so bad giving me nopsi and I just pullled the head when I wouldn't need to.
Oh well sometimes it's the hard way ya know!!!!!!
Thank again
Bill (not feeling so wild)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Mar 19, 2009, 1:53 PM
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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Bill - wait on pulling the head off!
A typo but you said it well>> "check the gasket and of curse then"<<
If the timing belt broke or fell off for any reason, worn or some strange something, the valves would stay put and not open and close on time for the pistons as they each go up and down and compression would read zero for the most part. That would also explain the easy turning as there would be no compression and the only resistance for the starter or by hand would be fighting the bind of pistons trying to squish the valves if this is an interference engine - don't know for now if it is. Some will crash and some won't if valves don't move to get out of the way of upcoming piston in time.
This oil went somewhere which is puzzling. It could have soaked your timing belt or something or holding up all that oil in the exhaust - can't say??
Some oil leaks may only happen while driving or on turns or something and make a mess you don't see ever and not get all over the place.
My trick of looking at this engine (a site) to see how it's layed out just changed so I can't look right now but this must use a rubber timing belt unseen without removing a cover. It's a cogged (gear toothed) belt and stays on the same marks or is supposed to. If it jumped the compression would be lost also.
When all compression is lost like that all at once it's almost certainly NOT a gasket issue. If you just left the spark plugs out an engine would spin free is sort of the feel without the puffing out the holes.
It makes a distict sound like a bad starter motor and you've observed all of these things.
Color of plugs: Ash - if black oily it's unburned oil, black and dusty could be fuel, light ash could just be age, running hot and need replacement - none are the upfront issue.
BACK TO THE OIL ISSUE: That may or may not be the cause. As said if tons of oil got on timing belt it could be the issue but where's the oil? Some times a hole in a low spot can spill oil while braking or turning and neatly spill and make no mess! It happens - I found holes or wild leaks like that in oil pans and once a failed seal in a timing cover of a whole different vehicle. Yup - hit the brakes and it gushed out! Was fine at idle speeds while watching.
~~~~~~~~~~~~`
I'm losing my train of thought which is on short tracks anyway sometimes .
Just what happend when this happened? Oil light again - did you continue to drive it with it on? Did any wild noises happen with the engine running? Need to know. I think this is just valve timing so far,
T
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wildbill07
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Mar 19, 2009, 2:24 PM
Post #5 of 26
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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Tom,
After i wrote that i thought I would go grab a beer at the local spot and contemplate matters... So i have not pulled the head but everything is off except for the head bolts. meaning I have a clear veiw of the belt and it is as dry as a bone and in excellent condition. I turned it over without the valve cover on and all valves are at least moving so they arent froze or what not. I think this is a non-interference motor but not entirely sure. i will say this that there is NO sound of the pistons slapping the valves or visa versa. And the motor does sound like a spinning starter with no resistance when i pulled the plugs and did the compression check. I pulled the starter already with out checking to even see if the motor was turning and of course the starter was good. So the guys at Shucks (Shmucks in some circles) thought maybe my alternator might be bad and battery low not giving enough juice for the bendix gear (cant remeber the right name) to engage. They said the alternator was bad so I replaved and then figured out the starter was engaging with my old alternator.
Anyways....... the plugs look white ashy so as I thought it may have the timing set to advanced running/burning hot(but its electonic so how can it be set past timing??????
Regardless the belt would have to slip to just the right positin to get a zero psi in all cylinders...........I think?
The oil issues as we both agree is very strange but all I can say is that no matter where I have parked it I always look to see if there are leaks and there never is. So I am just as miffed as you. And still no smoke
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wildbill07
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Mar 19, 2009, 2:28 PM
Post #6 of 26
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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I'm an idiot its a standard ignition thus the ashy plugs I would think
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 19, 2009, 3:26 PM
Post #7 of 26
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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>Regardless the belt would have to slip to just the right position to get a zero psi in all cylinders...........I think?<
No - a few notches would make for zero compression as a valve would be part open when piston is trying to compress. Good news is it isn't broken completely and that you can turn the engine. Never, never in any vehicle in my custody had an engine crashed but I would fully expect when valve hit piston it wouldn't turn past that well at all as what is found when that does happen is holes in pistons or more common bent up valves.
At the moment the type of ignition etc doesn't matter. It can't compress and that's primal or there's no need to bother with anything else. It would compress with no ignition , no fuel, near no oil, all kinds of things but it has to do that.
The thing is to target why of course. Valve timing in high on the list for whatever reason. If you can, put a cylinder on TDC and blow shop air into empty spark plug hole - CAUTION engine may turn. It might blow clearly back thru throttle or out exhaust or hope not but into crankcase (take oil cap off for the test) which would mean unreal passage of air by the piston. You were thinking rings once - I think holes in pistons more likely. I've never seen rings allow that kind of blowby when just earlier they compressed to 180psi you said!
OK: Have another beer and get one for me too .
It's best to diagnose the heck out of this before tossing any bucks at it. If this engine failed due to lack of lubrication from low oil - the oil pressure or some warning you already saw would have been lit. If you continued to run in that state the engine when oil pressure was lost would rattle like nuts and bolts in a can and finally seize up. You'd have to have a radio up pretty loud to not notice something drastically wrong to get that far. If so I think bearings usually weld up tight and engine won't turn for sh*t! I've never taken one apart or tried once seized to see exactly if pistons also weld up or how much other damage happens - it means the engine is now good for an anchor!
So test, test, test for compression and the air test. I can't see how a zero compression reading happened so fast on an engine that turns by hand.
This Bud's for you!
T
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 19, 2009, 3:37 PM
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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Some pics of piston damage for archive and reference....
That one was heat and lack of lubrication....
That's a valve collision....
That's what happens with improper valve timing.
Piston is up while valve still down for intake or
exhaust mode. Some hit some don't when this
happens. If off there won't be much or any
compression....
T
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wildbill07
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Mar 19, 2009, 3:38 PM
Post #9 of 26
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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T
Some how I missed the bottom of your post but to answer your questions I did run it longer then I have when the oil light came on meaning 40 miles maybe!!!!! and the light flickered. And there was NO visible, hearable or feelable difference it just died.
My brother just got home and I think your on the right track with the timing issue.......I just cant believe that the belt coul jump that far out of wack with NO NO noticable indicators as mentioned above. I dont know the timing procedures for this car so I guess my best bet is go to the library and get the Chiltons manual. I would still like to hear back from you and get any last thoughts.
Might you hae access to the specs????
Wet and rainy and cold in Seattle,
Bill
P.S. thank god for car ports and garages
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Loren Champlain Sr
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Mar 19, 2009, 3:46 PM
Post #10 of 26
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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Bill; I just 'skimmed' through the previous posts, so if I repeat something, bear with me. You've probably already found out, but the timing belt is probably missing some teeth near the crankshaft. As for the oil problem, the ash deposits are indicative of it burning oil. You may want to really consider whether to put any more money into this block.
Loren
SW Washington
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 19, 2009, 4:10 PM
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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Bill and thanks for jumping in Loren!
Bill - 40 miles with an oil warning on is OUT OF CONTROL! 40 seconds would or could completely destroy an engine. Warning lights are AKA "Idiot Lights" for a reason and I mean no harm. They are warning of a problem that is TOOOO late when they do come on never mind driving further.
Whether this is valve timing issues or total engine damage needs to be found out. As Loren said - don't be putting too much $$ into this block until you know just where you stand.
Already mentioned some tests that are all worth doing to verify what you can with it as it is now. The timing belt will have marks to line up on sprockets with an index mark. We might be able to find instructions for that but plain compression and other observations will tell if it's right or more is wrong,
T
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wildbill07
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Mar 19, 2009, 4:17 PM
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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Loren and T,
Thanks for the input and i do agree not to throw much if any money at this regardless. Just so weird no indicators at the time of breakdown to lead in any certain directions besides no pressure. At best the only thing I can do is get the timing specifactions and check to see if it is even out of timing and if so do I spend $130 on a timing belt set when this one is in excellent condition, I made a full rotation and it is pristene? Doesnt make sense.. How should I test the tension on it? 1/8"-1/2" of a turn on the belt max?
Guys have been great
TY,
Bill
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Loren Champlain Sr
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Mar 19, 2009, 4:25 PM
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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Bill; I forgot to mention...this is an interference engine, btw. With the belt installed, there should be about 1/8-1/4" deflection in the belt. There is an actual spec for this, but after doing a couple of hundred, you can pretty much feel if it's right.
Loren
SW Washington
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wildbill07
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Mar 19, 2009, 4:27 PM
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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Idiot Light is right............I've never had a vheicle that brurnd that much oil with no signs of it. Hell my 72 GMC 3/4 ton doesnt go through that much oil (but it does sit more LOL). 40 seconds is 40 seconds you are right and will pay for this preach of idioizzzzm. Yeah I don't have a leak down tester to pressurize the piston like you mentioned I just can go by feel and the motor turns very nice when by hand..Last step is to get the spec's for timing and see if it is wacked and if so retest and see what happens with my compression. If that does'nt help then it is only good/bad for a boat anchor as said by Loren
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Loren Champlain Sr
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Mar 19, 2009, 4:28 PM
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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Bill; I've got timing belt on the brain. Have you done a wet compression test? I've seen these engines flooded so severely that they lost compression. Might be worth a check.
Loren
SW Washington
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wildbill07
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Mar 19, 2009, 4:32 PM
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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Sorry Thom You get the credit for the anchor bit
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wildbill07
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Mar 19, 2009, 4:54 PM
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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Loren,
Hadn't thought about that.....so by wet compression check do you mean by putting a little bit of oil in the cylinders and then doing a compression check? I was thinking about doing this when I was originally trying to elminate the problems ie: oil pump bit it no oil no seal thinking(short lived thought) because if that was the problem then I would have a major metal to metal sound or something when the car died and something would seize. Also when I pulled the valve cover off oil was flowing fine to the top end when I turned it over. So I have to think oil is getting to the pistons as well.
But it might be worth a try of course once I make sure the timing hasn't gone awry.
I literaly have everything off but the head blots.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 19, 2009, 7:57 PM
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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Ok - I'm back and I see you two have been busy for a while on this.
Bill ~The so called wet compression test is putting some oil squirted in thru a spark plug hole - 1/2 teaspoon or so which with oil on TOP of piston will greatly seal minor flaws in the piston's rings and would raise the reading. If a piston had a full blow hole it wouldn't change anything.
Oil: The piston gets oil thru the rings (small holes allow is out) to lube between piston and cylinder wall. Three rings and one is to keep that oil to just a minimal but necessary film but all that oil from pump and crankcase is underneath what you see up top or thru spark plug hole. You shouldn't be seeing oil up top unless you put it there.
Bill again: Engine lubrication is critical by the second. There are no rolling ball bearings on these key parts but rather the bearings and piston to cylinder wall is sliding on a film of oil. bearing are floating on a pressured film of oil such that there is NO metal to metal contact in essence ever! What can last 1/4 mil miles with proper lubrication can't definitely go 1/4 mile with none! No joke!
Think of it kinda like this: Wet your finger and keep it wet rubbing on a window and it slides forever and doesn't wear out your finger or the glass. Let it go dry and you could rub the skin off your finger in no time - about the same analogy with oil and your engine.
I'm beginning to think the timing didn't jump by the belt and that the wear is the rings/pistons and cylinder walls such that unless there's gaps you could see thru the oil test would show an increase in compression.
The air test can be done sometimes with breaking a spark plug such that you can use compressed air and the now hollowed out plug to deliver air if you have air at all. That test will show where the compression is being lost to if done just right.
For checking the timing belt you would look at the index marks if they could line up AND the freeplay for if it's possible to jump but you can get that info without going that far.
To refresh: You recently saw an even 180 on each cylinder and now zero. It's pretty wild to evenly get that bad without some extreme happening.
I think what fooling with the diagnosis is this engine is in fact an ANCHOR/MOORING and it's unusual that you can still turn it as most would seize up like one solid chunk.
It sure would be nice to prove what the real state of it is before making the next move. Get a boat and use this for the anchor or fix it up
The fix if this is that destroyed by lack of oil would be a replacement engine if the car as a whole is worth it.
Keep testing till you/we can either fix this up or declare it "game over" - bummer if so,
T
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wildbill07
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Mar 19, 2009, 8:49 PM
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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Tom,
Thanks once again for your time I know you are busy. I am familar with the dynamics of oil film and metal wear without it. I am not so sure exactly what (besides and increase in pressure) i would see by doing a wet test. Meaning would a leak down test be best when doing a wet test? Not sure how I could use a broken/hollowed out spark plug in an air test if I am forcing over 150psi through it, do I clamp a hose contection of sorts????? I have 3 aircompressors of various sizes.
I am going to find out what the timing marks for the crank, #1 piston and distributor position is and check that first before pulling the head. If that checks then I am pulling it and then I can see the piston slevees and any possible damage.
So if the timing is correct then it must be the rings or major damage to the pistons even though everything turns nicely and there is absolutley NO noise whatsoever. And if it is then the gig is up and the car even though it is in excellent shape but really not worth 2K, I only spent 1200 on it.
I dont see what other diagnostic can be done after what you and Loren have said.
Once again i appreciate both yours time and I will defintley keep tabs here and help/give input when I can.
Truly,
Wild Bill
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 19, 2009, 9:17 PM
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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One more before later:
Air pressure testing: If not a busted spark plug then depending on the type of compression tester you are using you could take the gauge off, put something in that hole like a peice of scrap rubber so an air blower for compressed air would blow in the tester's tube to plug hole. Depending on what you might have for an air nozzle just use whatever rubber might fit both it and seal somewhat in the plug hole. You just need some volume of air not so much on the pressure and just to see/hear where the air goes. In a wicked tight engine on TDC they lock air pretty tight.
I'm pooped for now. I'll catch up with whatever later,
Tom
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wildbill07
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Mar 28, 2009, 12:43 PM
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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UPDATE...
Well after screwing around with timing setting and gettig some very weid cylinder pressure results I pulled the head. I found nothing visually wrong and after speaking with several machine shops and doing some basic bench test I dropped it off with a local shop.
Their findings after taking the cam out is that 2 of my cam bearing/seats were fried and I mean fried so no reason to go any further with testing of course. So I have a new head on order and a new head gasket set which I saved 300 verse buying locally.
But the real reason I could not get pressure of any sorts was because when the cam seized the cam gear spun on the key way which I can not get off so I had to orer a new one of those to go on the new head.
I am still miffed about the oil consumption though.
Is it possible the the 2 bad cam bearings/seats have been bad and burning up 1-2qts every 3 -4 days and thats where it was going?
Thanks again for all the input
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Loren Champlain Sr
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Mar 28, 2009, 12:50 PM
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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wildbill; The only time that I've seen a cam seize is from lack of oil. And, no, that wouldn't 'burn up' any oil to speak of. I think that you've got more going on here that, maybe, you might want to rethink putting a new head and cam on this engine? Your oil consumption, if the engine survives at all, will probably increase. And, I'd be very concerned about oil pressure and delivery.
Loren
SW Washington
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wildbill07
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Mar 28, 2009, 1:14 PM
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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Loren,
I debated long and hard and had the same thoughts as you regarding consumption, pressure and just the overall cost verse risk. As far as the cam burning out was totaly my fault for letting the oil getting to low, I will never ignore the idiot light again. I know my oil pump is working and is delivering it to the top end and when I pulled the heads there is NO!!! sign of damage to the cylinders. But I thought for 270 bucks I was willing to take the gamble.
I will post after I put the new head in and see if the money spent was a gamble indeed.
Thanks again,
Wildbill07
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Loren Champlain Sr
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Mar 28, 2009, 1:29 PM
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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wildbill; Don't depend on the idiot light. It only takes a small amount of oil pressure to turn it out. That's why they are called idiot lights. Physically check oil level every few days at first. If no problem, you can extend the time to once a week. If no problem, extend it to every time you fuel up, ect... Until you have a good feel as to how much oil it is going through and how often you need to add. And, keep them fingers and toes crossed. We can hope for the best.
Loren
SW Washington
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wildbill07
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Apr 9, 2009, 10:25 AM
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Re: 89 Civic 1500 Blown head gasket or rings
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 Well I finally got my rebuilt head last Wednesday and got it all installed on Saturday. Took it for a test drive after I had done several valve lash adjustments and figured out where the timing adjustment plug bypass was located and it over heated as I am driving out of the drive way. Thought the worse that I some how managed to install the head gasket worng..but as I drove back in to the shop I realized I didnt replace the radiator fluid.........huge DOOOHHHH and pheww.
All in it runs great and the compression came back at 180psi across, it does smoke now at start up and goes away for the most part after warming up so I think a caused a bit of damage to the rings even the cylinders show no signs of damage.
Oh well I will make sure to keep oil on on hand in the car and drive it tilthe wheels fall off.
So for 300 bucks my gamble paid off I think
Thanks again for your guys input I appreciate the feed back.
Sincerely,
A HAPPY WILDBILL07
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