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Alignment: Am I Getting Ripped Off? (2007 Honda Civic)
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bigbot
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Jan 5, 2011, 7:42 AM
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Alignment: Am I Getting Ripped Off? (2007 Honda Civic)
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2007 Honda Civic EX: 70,000 Miles
Hello!
I recently drove over a "half-curb" by accident and thought for sure that it must have broken something. My tires badly needed to be replaced anyway, so I had them replaced yesterday. Before I got the new tires my car was drifting to the left on roads fairly bad. After getting the new tires it started drifting to the right... The mechanic recommended that I get an alignment done at Firestone. I have had the car since 2007 and put about 50k miles on it, and have never had an alignment done until now.
I Went to Firestone this morning and had the alignment done. The tech told me that they had a "hell of a time working on it" and that "certain things were not adjustable", whatever the hell that means. Here is an image of the alignment stats I received (although it shows the wrong model? I have an EX..)
http://img407.imageshack.us/.../1949/alignmentu.jpg
After leaving my car was still drifting to the right exactly the same as before. It's not really bad, but if I take my hand off the wheel my car would run off the road after about 5 seconds (at 30mph anyway). So I started getting this feeling that I needed to do my own research and couldn't trust those guys. I mean it seems to me that my car shouldn't still be drifting to the right exactly the same as before after an alignment.
So my first question is, do the stats I have uploaded look right? As in does it look like they did everything correctly? The tech told me that the values out of range "would not wear my tires" but that they were "not adjustable anyway".
My second question is, what's the real deal about the "drift test"? Although plenty of sources claim it's a reliable way to test your alignment, one guy stated that roads are slanted to the right for water runoff purposes, and therefore even with perfect alignment your car will always drift right. So is this test reliable, and how bad does the drift really need to be?
Thanks So Much.
(This post was edited by bigbot on Jan 5, 2011, 7:43 AM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jan 5, 2011, 8:36 AM
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Re: Alignment: Am I Getting Ripped Off? (2007 Honda Civic)
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Now with new tires you want to get this right or risk wearing the new ones all wrong. There could be bent/worn parts to repair or replace as needed to get this into the limits of the specifications.
Camber and caster are the two most responsible for a car pulling to one side w chance of a brake issue or something else in the picture. You should have been told or have received an itemized list of what would be required to put this car into specification. The "red" on your sheet shows what isn't in spec as you can see,
T
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Hammer Time
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Jan 5, 2011, 8:52 AM
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Re: Alignment: Am I Getting Ripped Off? (2007 Honda Civic)
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I'm not surprised at all that it pulls. He really didn't do much of anything to correct it. The camber is way off and likely the cause of your pulling. He didn't even measure the Caster so we have no clue what's going on there. All he did was set the Toe which did nothing for the pulling.
The Camber is a big issue and the manufacturer does not build in a way to adjust it although there are aftermarket kits that can be installed to create adjustment to it but there would be extra cost for that. They make offset bolts that can go into the struts and provide some adjustment. The big problem is not that the camber is so far out of spec, it's that they are at opposite extremes from left to right and that causes the pull. If they could raise one and lower the other, you would get rid of the pull, assuming there are no major issues with the caster that he didn't even check.
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Sidom
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Jan 5, 2011, 12:07 PM
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Re: Alignment: Am I Getting Ripped Off? (2007 Honda Civic)
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Are you getting ripped off?
No.
You went in for an alignment and going off the printout you provided, the shop performed an alignment.
We'll start off with your vehicle, a 07 Honda Civic Ex. From the factory the only adjustable angles are front & rear toe. These are the most severe tire wearing angles. Front caster & front & rear camber are non-adjustable and require aftermarket kits to be installed if an adjustment is required and is not included in a base alignment price.
Just a quick overview on the angles,
Camber--will wear tires and will pull to the more positive side
Caster-- will not wear tires and will pull to the more negative side
toe---will wear tires and won't cause a pull (this is just a basic overview, we aren't getting into rear toe and thrust angles as we all know that can cause a pull.......)
On thing you sort of glazed over was "hitting the 1/2 curb", depending on the damage this could be where the whole problem lies. If the only thing I can go by is the printout, then I would say that the LR of the vehicle is where the damage occurred.
There is a few things going on here, 1st you have some misinformation you are assuming as fact. One just because a car pulls or drifts doesn't always mean the car needs an alignment. Tires cause pulls. You can have a car that is perfectly in specs with bad tires and it will pull. I don't know what was said at the counter when it was written up but if a pull/drift issue was mentioned then caster should've been measured even though it's not adjustable just to see the specs and if it could be a possible cause of a pull/drift.
As you can see by the printout the tech did adjust all adjustable angles on that vehicle and brought them back to specs. It sounds like the writer did talk to you about aftermaket kits for your camber problem.
So what you can do that is real easy.......Cross your front tires and drive the car, if the pull/drift changes sides, you have a tire issue and just because they are new doesn't mean there isn't a problem. I've seen plenty of new tires cause pulls. If this does change the pull, post back and there are a few steps you can take that might correct this tire problem...
Going off the camber specs the car should actually drift left but I don't know what the caster is so this is an unknown at this point.
The rear camber is also out but is just barely out of range and wouldn't cause any severe wear but could give you some inside wear over time. Personally (depending on the caster readings) after swapping tires if the pull was still there I would require frt kits for the pulling problem & suggest a LR kit for being out of specs.
(This post was edited by Sidom on Jan 5, 2011, 12:13 PM)
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re-tired
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Jan 5, 2011, 1:02 PM
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Re: Alignment: Am I Getting Ripped Off? (2007 Honda Civic)
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I have been to a mfg school on alignment. In my opinion you have a very inomplete job. Too much cross camber ,the limit is .5' your at the limit , will cause a pull to the side with the most pos camber.Main cause is a bent strut or tower. To much cross caster and vehicle will pull to side with least neg caster. Unfortunetly he did not check caster or SAI steering angle, which would have confrimed things. So that is a moot point. What you got was basicly a toe and go.IMO
LIFE'S SHORT GO FISH
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Hammer Time
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Jan 5, 2011, 1:22 PM
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Re: Alignment: Am I Getting Ripped Off? (2007 Honda Civic)
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As I started in the beginning, all you got was what we call a "tire changer alignment", meaning the person has been taught how to set the basic angle of toe-in which is far from doing a complete alignment. RT has substantially said the same thing I did. You need the Caster checked and the Camber corrected and there will be extra charges for that because aftermarket kits have to be used. I've been doing wheel alignments for 40 years and what you got is what's known in the business as a "Toe and go".
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re-tired
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Jan 5, 2011, 2:05 PM
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Re: Alignment: Am I Getting Ripped Off? (2007 Honda Civic)
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" RT has substantially said the same thing I did"
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My intent was just that , to reaffirm what HT said in the begining.
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Everybody is saying pretty much the same thing .You did not get the full treatment (THE KITS INSTALLED) But then again you did not get charged for that either .
LIFE'S SHORT GO FISH
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Sidom
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Jan 5, 2011, 2:31 PM
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Re: Alignment: Am I Getting Ripped Off? (2007 Honda Civic)
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We don't know what was said at the counter on write up or pick up....
What I want to be clear is the poster got what he paid for. He paid for an alignment and on this particular vehicle, the ONLY adjustable factory angles are toe.
I agree caster should've been measured but aside from that we don't know what was said or suggested....
The term "set the toe & go" refers to tech who just sets the toe on a fully adjustable vehicle and neglects to set the other angles that are out of specs for whatever reasons, none of which are good reasons....
I may be wrong but I'm assuming the OP isn't familiar with doing an alignment and the info here, while being accurate is being presented in a way where the OP might think he didn't get an alignment and go in there and demand a refund.
He got an alignment. His frt & rear toe was set to specs, the only factory adjustment on that car were set to specs and he was informed of camber problems that require aftermarket kits @ additional charges....
(This post was edited by Sidom on Jan 5, 2011, 2:31 PM)
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Hammer Time
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Jan 5, 2011, 3:23 PM
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Re: Alignment: Am I Getting Ripped Off? (2007 Honda Civic)
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I wouldn't pay for an alignment that didn't even do a caster sweep. That shows the intent to set the toe and go. Obviously, this guy either didn't care what the readings were or didn't know any better. Not what i would pay $60 or more for.
I've run Tire stores for many years and I've seen this scenario hundreds of times when they teach a tire buster how to hang gauges and set toe to catch up with the backlog of alignments and it isn't right.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Jan 5, 2011, 3:26 PM)
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Hammer Time
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Jan 5, 2011, 4:36 PM
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Re: Alignment: Am I Getting Ripped Off? (2007 Honda Civic)
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The key here is to understand what the options were, take all the required measurements and advise the customer on how to correct the existing problems. That obviously wasn't done or he wouldn't be here asking why his car is still pulling, he would have already been informed of the situation but it's pretty obvious that nobody took that step. They just set the toe, took the money and moved on to the next one.
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re-tired
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Jan 5, 2011, 5:12 PM
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Re: Alignment: Am I Getting Ripped Off? (2007 Honda Civic)
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Good information by all . I think the poster has enough info to make his mind up on what his options are .
LIFE'S SHORT GO FISH
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Sidom
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Jan 5, 2011, 5:17 PM
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Re: Alignment: Am I Getting Ripped Off? (2007 Honda Civic)
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That goes to the point I brought up earlier...... We don't know what was said when the car was brought in. If the problem was ever mentioned or just " I got new tires and need an alignment"
Honestly, if a tech got a alignment due to new tires, he would drive it an it's very possible not even notice this drift if he wasn't told about it. The OP said it took 5 seconds before if drifted, thats a very long time and easy to miss if you weren't aware of it.
I'm giving the tech the benefit of the doubt here. He gets a alignment complaining of a drift/pull and doesn't do caster sweeps???? If he knew there was a pull and still didn't do the sweeps, then I starting not to give him the benefit of the doubt anymore
Just the fact there is no sweeps tells me the pull/drift was never mentioned and the tech thought he was doing a maintenance alignment. Still no reason not to do sweeps.
Hondas that pull due to caster problems are rare. The main problem is tires and then camber. Just try and find an aftermarket caster kit for a Honda. It's not impossible but you have a way easier time finding camber kits....
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Hammer Time
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Jan 5, 2011, 5:34 PM
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Re: Alignment: Am I Getting Ripped Off? (2007 Honda Civic)
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Come on Brian..........
Read the writing on the wall here. The car pulls like hell so either he didn't road test it, did and didn't care and didn't even bother to read the Caster. The car has a 1.3 degree split in Camber and the customer knows nothing about it. This guy has no excuses for this except just blowing out toe and go's. I see it all the time and I hate it. Every tire buster around thinks he's an alignment tech because somebody showed him how to hang a set of gauges.
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bigbot
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Jan 6, 2011, 12:09 AM
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Re: Alignment: Am I Getting Ripped Off? (2007 Honda Civic)
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Wow thanks so much for all the detailed replies! That was way more than I was expecting and is much appreciated. To clarify some things: I paid $80 for the one-time alignment @ Firestone. The guy at the counter asked if there was anything wrong, and I told him about the pulling to the right and that I smashed over a curb. After the repairs were done the only information he gave me was that certain angles were not adjustable, but that they were close enough to spec that my tires would not wear prematurely. He did not say anything about any further actions I should take.
On the amount of pulling to the right: I can let go of the wheel for a few seconds and my car *seems* to be going straight. After about 3 seconds my car starts drifting to the right, and I would probably run off the road somewhere around 6 seconds. This is at 35mph on backroads. As I said some people have told me that cars are "supposed" to drift this much becuase of either the roads being angled to the right due to water runoff, or that drifting slowly to the right is "by design" for safety reasons (as to avoid a head-on collision if you let go of the wheel for any reason). I don't know if both or either one of those opinions are BS.
When you don't know a lot about cars there's a fine line I suppose between being paranoid about getting ripped off, and actually getting ripped off. Even after reading all your posts I'm still conflicted (some of you say they did the job, however a lot of people are saying they did the bare minimum and pretty much ripped me off). Is there any action you can recommend me taking? I did read all the horror stories about getting alignments done before taking my car to Firestone.. Wasn't too happy about it, but I don't have a lot of choices in the Lancaster, PA area.. I'm told that the alignment machine is expensive as hell and only the bigger places have it.
@Sidom, I will see about switching the tires and thanks for that information.
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Hammer Time
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Jan 6, 2011, 3:47 AM
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Re: Alignment: Am I Getting Ripped Off? (2007 Honda Civic)
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You did actually get the only adjustments available for the price you paid. What you didn't get is the correct advice and all the info that should have been supplied to you as to what your options were. What they said about it being close to spec was inaccurate. Although the readings were only slightly out of the tolerances at each wheel, they were out in different ends of the scale and a lot in relation to each other which is also a spec called the "cross Camber" spec that is important also and they ignored that and that is why it pulls.
Yes it is normal for a car to follow the crown of the road and that's why the car should be road tested on a flat road or flat part of the road. The problem you have now is that if you elected to add the kits that would resolve this, you would have to pay for the basic alignment over again. That is why it should have been an option to you at the time they were doing the alignment.
It just gives me the impression that the person assigned to the job was either very careless or not knowledgeable enough to do job correctly which is common in the tire industry.
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bigbot
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Jan 6, 2011, 4:51 AM
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Re: Alignment: Am I Getting Ripped Off? (2007 Honda Civic)
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Thanks Hammer Time and well said. It seems like I should probably go complain to Firestone about this, and try to get them to finish the job properly (assuming I buy this kit you're talking about and they will install it). What do you think about that? And the fact that they did not check the castor either, which from what you were saying sounds like a standard thing they should be doing (at least in my case).. I would like to go to them and say "hey you guys said my alignment was close to spec, but the cross camber is definitely not" .. as you said in your last reply. Is there any documentation or evidence I can use to back this up? Or is it good enough to just tell them that, or to contact corporate and tell them?
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Hammer Time
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Jan 6, 2011, 4:59 AM
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Re: Alignment: Am I Getting Ripped Off? (2007 Honda Civic)
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Sure, the spec for that is right in the paper you posted in the middle of the page. The limits are -.6 to +.6 and yours is 1.3
Be prepared for the cost of installing these kits that can cost $60 to $70 per wheel and you actually need 3, two for the front and one in the LR although you could life without the LR.
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bigbot
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Jan 6, 2011, 5:07 AM
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Re: Alignment: Am I Getting Ripped Off? (2007 Honda Civic)
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Well the drifting doesn't bother me that much. The question is, will spending the money on the cambor kits/installation save me money long term (over replacing new tires, etc)? Is the alignment off enough to cause premature tire wear?
And can I trust my new friends down at Firestone to do that right? Lol.
(This post was edited by bigbot on Jan 6, 2011, 5:09 AM)
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Hammer Time
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Jan 6, 2011, 5:18 AM
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Re: Alignment: Am I Getting Ripped Off? (2007 Honda Civic)
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It will improve tire life a little but you have mainly a pulling problem. I can't tell you anything about the guys at Firestone though.
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Sidom
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Jan 6, 2011, 7:35 PM
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Re: Alignment: Am I Getting Ripped Off? (2007 Honda Civic)
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With the updated information you gave changes things a little..... You are correct that they did the "bare" minimum on the alignment.
A tech knowing a vehicle hit a curb and is drifting/pulling should get a caster reading, no questions asked. Even if the angle is non adjustable on that vehilce and there are no kits available to make it adjustable, it has still has to be known. I'm assuming they're using Hunter equipment, this is one of the few where you can bypass a caster sweep to get to the adjustment screen. Hunter has very good alignment equipment by they really need to remove that option.
I don't know if I would go in there debating alignment specs, this would just confuse things and they would have the upper hand on you.
I would keep it basic. You took your car in there for a drift right & it still drifts right. Make my car go straight
If you had told them, you had just got new tires & needed an alignment, that would be totally different. Your toe was out in the frt & rear, they did perform a service and brought it back into specs & that will extend the life of the tires, but that isn't what you asked for.
Personally before I took it back, I would check tire pressure, set it to specs according to what is posted in the door jam. It's either 26/30 or 30/30 and cross the tires and see if this changes your drift. By the camber readings it should be drifting left but the caster could be overridding that if the splits are large enough. But I can't say cuz I don't know what they are. The splits are off on camber but not by a huge amount.
As far as the kits go, your camber is out of specs to the negative side and can over time give you some inside wear and wear the tires a little faster than normal but before you put kits in you want to make sure the ride height of the car is in specs. If the springs are sagging slightly this will make the camber go negative. Kits would be the cheaper route (this is another reason they make them) but regardless, for the best tire wear you need to get that camber back into specs (& not just barely in, it needs to be at preferred..) I would be surprised if an 07 with that mileage needed springs but once again, it needs to be checked before proceeding because it can effect the readings.
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