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200 Cavalier will not start.
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rickcaspari
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Sep 18, 2008, 12:08 PM
Post #1 of 21
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200 Cavalier will not start.
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I am having a problem with my car. When I go to start it , it sounds like the starter is not engaging. If I apply a little throttle the starter engages and the car will start sometimes.I dont have a clue as to what is causing this. Any help would be appreciated.Thank you RICK.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Sep 18, 2008, 5:46 PM
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Re: 200 Cavalier will not start.
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Do you mean like the starter isn't turning the engine at all? Don't know how or why throttle would effect that but if starter isn't turning engine all the time when requested I'd check and clean both ends of both battery cables for now,
T
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rickcaspari
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Sep 19, 2008, 9:18 AM
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Re: 200 Cavalier will not start.
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Yes,I may have 2 problems.When I get in it to start it,if I dont hit the gas, the starter will crank the car over a couple of times then it will spit and the starter unengages.When I hit the gas,and go to start, it usually starts on up.This is a really strange problem.RICK
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Sep 19, 2008, 9:27 AM
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Re: 200 Cavalier will not start.
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It's hard to say by description just what it's doing to you. Seems like either it's firing a spark plug out of time which can stop a starter or perhaps if the starter keeps making noise the starter drive is giving out. That makes a hummming sound and only while cranking. If it chugs against itself it would be more consistant with the first idea which could be assorted tune up item faults or perhaps valve timing.
Battery cables if marginally making contact can do funky things. It's tough from here to know where to begin. If I head that in front of me I'd know right where to start looking.
How many miles? What year and the services already known complete?
T
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rickcaspari
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Sep 19, 2008, 11:01 AM
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Re: 200 Cavalier will not start.
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It has 110,000 miles . Ihave replaced the plugs and wires as well as the fuel filter.The dealer has changed the O2 and crank position sensor.I was thinking maybe I am having some kind of fuel delivery problem due to the fact that it will start with a little throttle applied.Also I dont know JACK about fuel injection.RICK
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Sep 19, 2008, 1:41 PM
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Re: 200 Cavalier will not start.
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Rick - This may be two things and I'm still confused so I'll try to clarify.....
When you just "crank" the engine fuel has nothing to do with it. It's just a starter motor turning the engine till it can run on its own. A car out of fuel or with no spark to plugs would still just crank away till you let go of the key trying. BTW - that isn't good to try too long at a time - avoid that.
Position of your gas pedal really has nothing to do with this cranking at all but may be making a difference on whether it starts to run on its own or not.
When you say it just quits the starter that is where I'm confused OR two things are going on.
Again - If when the engine is cranking it could misfire at the wrong time which could stop the starter from continuing to phsycally turn/crank the engine which would be a hard strain on the starter. A subsequent try probably would allow it to crank for a while as usual.
I don't really know what touching or whatever you are doing to the gas pedal has to do with it quitting the start mode or not??
Let's see if we can narrow this down. It's probably one problem and not two.
Question: Does the car run well all the time once it is running? That would be helpful to know.
Re Fuel Injection: It's just fuel sprayed at the right time and amount in the right spot - like a nozzle and can quickly spray and stop as fast as needed for the operation. Fuel injection is more sensitive to fuel pressure than plain carbs. Some will have troubles with just a few PSIs off of norms. Injected vehicles have higher pressures than plain carbs did. For now I don't think injectors are the issue at all. Never hurts to periodically use some "injector care" - solvent in gas - fav is Techron which does help prevent problems.
So the questions are - does the engine actually stop turning while trying (cranking) AND does the car run well at all other times?
T
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Anonymous Poster
Sep 19, 2008, 7:38 PM
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Re: 200 Cavalier will not start.
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Sounds like you do have 2 probs.
There is some good advise going on...
One thing I would suggest is to clean your throttle body.. They get dirty & the air bypass may be partial clogged & require a little help getting started by hitting the pedal.... Use intake cleaner...(not carb cleaner) & a rag while opening the throttle plate & wipe.... You can spray some down the throttle while running but need to be careful & does require opening the throttle slightly to compensate for the extra "fuel"
starter sounds like it has a weak bendix & can only stay engaged for a short period.....
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Sep 22, 2008, 10:50 AM
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Re: 200 Cavalier will not start.
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When I go to start the car when the motor is cool,It sound like the starter is releasing from the flywheel.If I give it some throttle, it goes on and starts up. Once the car is running it is fine.it starts normally and runs fine until it sits for a while and cools off.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Sep 22, 2008, 1:21 PM
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Re: 200 Cavalier will not start.
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Ok: I think what you have is a bad "starter drive" which when failed the starter on this style will hummm away but teeth are engaged and subsequent tries may work or sometime kick in while humming - which truly has stopped turning the engine. If it is just that it may do that for a while or be the last time it will start the car so you have your warning.
They are available separately and depending on your skills would possibly be cheaper but should be new with a whole rebuilt starter which probably is the best choice for most,
T
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Anonymous Poster
Sep 26, 2008, 10:17 AM
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Re: 200 Cavalier will not start.
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I took my starter to the local Auto Zone and tested.It passed multiple attempts. Where should I look next? Thanks RICK.
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Guest
Anonymous Poster
Sep 26, 2008, 11:12 AM
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Re: 200 Cavalier will not start.
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How do I check the voltage to the starter?
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rickcaspari
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Sep 26, 2008, 12:02 PM
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Re: 200 Cavalier will not start.
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I forgot to log in. The 2 previous posts are mine.RICK
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Tom Greenleaf
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Sep 26, 2008, 7:49 PM
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When you said it feels like it's releasing from the flywheel I need to know what's really happening. Is the starter still turning and making a steady noise but not actually turning the engine?
The starter drive on some test machine might not show up as it would with the real load of turning the engine.
Gotta know exactly what does and doesn't happen when doesn't work. Hey - noises and things are tough to describe sometimes. I'm looking for a whine, humm, grind, single click or something to go on and relying on you to convey that. I still think it's consistant with a bad starter drive with existing info as I understand it,
Note: The starter drive is the little gear you can see when you removed the starter. This is thrown out to engage to large "flywheel" to turn the engine. They are designed such that if the engine started with starter still engaged like you didn't let go of the key that it will freespin backward with quite a racket but in hopes to save breaking things as engine when started is turning faster than the starter can keep up. That ratcheting gear can slip and I'm calling that problem a humming sound and engine would not be turning but unseen the starter motor still is,
T
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rickcaspari
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Sep 29, 2008, 8:01 AM
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Re: 200 Cavalier will not start.
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Hey Tom,
I put a new starter on the car.It started up fine for a couple of days. I got in it yesterday and the starter turned the car over fine but it would not start and run.It kept spiting and it felt like the engine was kicking back on the starter,kinda like a kick start motorcycle will do sometimes. after a few atempts and kickbacks,the starter would not engage the flywheel .It would just whine.
Is it possilble that I have an intermittant timing problem?Maybe a stretched timing belt or something.Like I say, this car will sometimes run and start great for a week or so then it acts up for a day or so. I also cleaned the IAC the best I could with spray fuel injector cleaner.Thanks for all your help.RICK
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Sep 29, 2008, 9:01 AM
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Ok: Starter: I think it was stressed by the engine and now even if new needs that starter drive. It probably still throws the little gear at the flywheel but just loose and not turning - the "humming sound"
This is likely one problem caused another thing. If the spark can fire at just the wrong time the engine wants to turn backwards like you noted from kick starting a motorcycle and it does that with other pull start things to me sometimes taking it right out of you hands!
Any cause of incorrect firing is open to possibilites. Bad wires or this car may use crank/cam sensors for telling it when to fire and they could be the fault. If no codes are present to help just rule out the items that fire the plugs. Timing chain/belts can do that intermittent thing but not usually for long before it's real trouble if they are the cause - rule that out too and that's a maintenance thing anyway with rubber belt if used in this. If it clearly can run well once running I doubt timing belt issues are the first cause of troubles right now,
T
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rickcaspari
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Sep 29, 2008, 1:55 PM
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Re: 200 Cavalier will not start.
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I replaced the plugs and wires about a year ago when this problem arose.New wires and plugs had no effect on the condition.This car has coil packs perhaps one of them is going bad. How do you check one of those? Is there any way to check the timing belt? How much trouble is it to change out?Rick.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Sep 29, 2008, 6:13 PM
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I'm getting lost with this thread. Has this starting problem gone on for a year already? Plugs really can't crossfire on their own - wires can if touching or close enough. Coil packs could too. They would also make misfires when running. Weak secodaries would react to being sprayed/misted with tap water. The items done a year ago could be bad now? Did crank sensor solve something back when? It's still on the table for this - year old or not.
How does this thing run once running? What engine and how many miles in this? Post the year too as "200" isn't clear enough.
Timing chain or belt? You'll have to take covers off and look if they are in question. If rubber belt when was it done last?
Seems like this new starter is toast already. Should be able to swap that out. It may have been aggrevated but shouldn't have blow its drive so easy.
Please start over with all info and dates, year, engine and miles and let's fix this,
T
If you cancelled/disbled the ignition does engine still react when cranking? That would be telling.
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rickcaspari
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Sep 30, 2008, 8:03 AM
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Re: 200 Cavalier will not start.
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I'm getting lost with this thread. Has this starting problem gone on for a year already? Plugs really can't crossfire on their own - wires can if touching or close enough. Coil packs could too. They would also make misfires when running. Weak secodaries would react to being sprayed/misted with tap water. The items done a year ago could be bad now? Did crank sensor solve something back when? It's still on the table for this - year old or not.
How does this thing run once running? What engine and how many miles in this? Post the year too as "200" isn't clear enough.
Timing chain or belt? You'll have to take covers off and look if they are in question. If rubber belt when was it done last?
Seems like this new starter is toast already. Should be able to swap that out. It may have been aggrevated but shouldn't have blow its drive so easy.
Please start over with all info and dates, year, engine and miles and let's fix this,
T
If you cancelled/disbled the ignition does engine still react when cranking? That would be telling. I'm sorry for not being too clear in my posts.I'm just kinda stupid so bear with me as long as you can.The car is a 2000 model with 2.2 L auto with 110,000 miles.When the problems started I changed the plug and wires ,fuel filter,air filter. This problem has been off and on for almost a year.I have been able to go as long as 3 weeks with out any problem.The car does not get driven often as it has this intermittent problem. I need to drive it now because of an accident with my other mode of transportation. The dealer put it on the computer back earlier this year and displayed bad O2 and crank sensors.It was fine when I picked it up.(when I dropped it off it was running and starting fine).The new O2 and Crank sensor did not fix this problem,in fact it acted up the very next day. and as luck would have it,the problem has never dupliocated itself at the dealer.It has been to the dealer 3 times already.I cannot afford to keep taking this car to them. When the car starts up,it runs great.Not a hint of a problem.No service engine light or anything.Like I say,when the problems start, they start. I have never changed the timing belt or chain. OK here is what happens when the problems start.Car does not turn over smoothly,kinda choppy like its out of time.It will spit and try to start and feels like it "Kicks Back" on itself.If I try long enough,it will eventually start.Once started it runs fine and starts fine for maybe a day or a week. I picked up a new starter today and I'll put it in this afternoon. If you cancelled/disbled the ignition does engine still react when cranking? That would be telling. How do you disable the ignition?
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Sep 30, 2008, 8:40 AM
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Re: 2000 Cavalier 2.2, 110k will not start.
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Ok:
Car uses a timing chain as shown above. It's not visable without some work to get at it and I don't think this is the problem at all.
I just smacks of ignition crossfire. Anything that carries or contains the high voltage of spark could jump to the wrong cylinder making it fire at the wrong time perhaps - sometimes that pushes engine backwards and would chug against the starter while starting or run rough constantly or intermittently if what I'm thinking.
If plugs just plain couldn't fire the engine should crank at full speed. We know it has spark so to cancel them I think I might just leave the wires off or grounded would be better plugs (well marked please for replacement) which would both create a reason for spark to seek alternate routes thru any wires new or not and coils could have micro flaws that you can't see so well by eye.
Car should crank normally as if it had no spark at all. While doing this have a helper turn for starter and watch underhood for stray sparks. Wetting suspect areas with water will aggrevate weak insulation and may show for you - dark helps. I just hope you see something and it's that easy.....
Ok: All this means the starter must be behaving and I don't think it is right now. If that still acts up it has to be fixed or replaced.
Note: Don't crank engine too much. That is hard on starter and could lead to plug fouling/flooded condition and we don't need more thrown in. Just a few seconds for observations - litterally ONE, TWO, THREE by count.
Note II: Use of water (I happen to use window cleaner as it's always nearby) will aggrevate high voltage insulation and sometimes show leaks. Clean water doesn't conduct electricity so I just use the window cleaner but you really want less than distilled water - got it? Salted water would draw stray current better but I hate to salt anything electrical. Your call,
T
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rickcaspari
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Oct 1, 2008, 7:58 AM
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Re: 2000 Cavalier 2.2, 110k will not start.
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Hey Guys,
I installed my new/rebuilt starter.The car started fine and ran well.I took Tom's advice and sprayed the coil packs with Windex.Immediately the car died.I checked this 5 different times just to make sure.I replaced the coil packs and sprayed them.Not a stutter or anything.it ran perfectly.I think this may have solved my problem.Tom as well as the rest of the guys,I issue you a big "THANK YOU".There is no telling how much money you guys saved me.Thank you so much.RICK
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Oct 1, 2008, 9:10 AM
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Re: 2000 Cavalier 2.2, 110k will not start.
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Rick,
ThankYOU for posting the fix and how you got there. We all love the success stories and hope to have helped.
Windex will thank you for the plug for them by brand name. Just funny that's what I use as my shop doesn't have running water for three months a year or more so I clean my hands with it and everything else that might get greasy - oh and windows too! It worked for me decades ago with assorted shops without water and never caused a problem for use testing for spark leaks.
Just know that when something dies right out with the test it's a pretty sure bet you found it. To reverse that if you need to use the vehicle one more time you can try WD-40 to displace the moisture with mixed results.
We both lucked out with your description of the problems in sequence and the resultant fix. Thanks and good luck,
Tom
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Oct 1, 2008, 9:15 AM)
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