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1992 Pontiac Grand Am Back drum brake issue?
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huxley
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Jun 12, 2008, 6:39 PM
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1992 Pontiac Grand Am Back drum brake issue?
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Hey All,
Been a while since I posted. I hope you're all well and I apologize for only coming here when I require help. Nothing personal to any of you!
Stats: 1992 Pontiac Grand Am-34,000 miles (actual mileage). 2.3L QUAD OHC engine. Replaced front rotors and pads 4000 miles ago. ABS braking system.
Anyway, my car has been treating me very well. In fact, I just arrived back from a Florida trip yesterday which put over 3500 miles on her. Today, I had driven about 20 miles without issue. I arrived home, parked the car in the driveway, and put the parking brake on. This is something I always do. When I went out to drive somewhere about 2 hours ago, my right back brake was grabbing and catching when I would use the brake inside the car and it would skid to a stop while all the other wheels would brake normally. There was no dragging when I was accelerating or coasting normally. The issue would only occur with pressure on the brake pedal. It was a very violent action too. It would pull the entire right side of the car down on the shock. Yes, the parking brake was off.
So, out of curiosity, I removed the back right wheel and drum and then also removed the back left wheel and drum to compare. Both sides have leaky wheel cylinders (unless a dark oily substance on some components is normal) but other than that, they both looked the same. I did notice a great deal of dust buildup on the culprit side-but could that really cause such a drastic result as I was experiencing?
Now the weird part...I reassembled everything and decided to give the car a spin. It's not doing it now! Not that I'm complaining, but I didn't do anything to fix this and it seemed like a strange but somewhat major problem. Any idea what is happening here and what the hell I did to fix it, if anything? I poked and putzed around at a few components but other than that, I truly did NOTHING except dump out all the dust.
On another note, should I look into getting the wheel cylinders replaced if they are leaky? I have the service manual and it provides directions but is it something the amateur home mechanic can handle if the brakes are ABS?
Thanks for any and all help folks-I hope I can get to the bottom of this strange occurence,
-Nate
(This post was edited by huxley on Jun 12, 2008, 6:41 PM)
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dave284
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Jun 12, 2008, 8:14 PM
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Re: 1992 Pontiac Grand Am Back drum brake issue?
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Nate, the oily stuff is brake fluid leaking, it could contaminate the brake shoe linings and and also mess up the front brakes as well, the brake cylinders are not that much, and you are letting air into the system everytime the brake is pressed,it would be wise to replace the cylinders soon as possible.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jun 12, 2008, 11:58 PM
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Re: 1992 Pontiac Grand Am Back drum brake issue?
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Hi Nate! You can come here any dang time you feel like it!
As Dave said it's brake fluid as there is no gear oil back there. Just up and toss wheel cylinders and check out the park cables that they area real free. Hard part with wheel cylinders is really only getting the brake line out - low miles or not rust gets those pretty stuck - put PB on the line to flare nut right away.
Good for you for using the parking brake. I'm bad and never use them and almost never needed where I happen to be and park and that's not so good when the once a year inspection time comes that's when they can cutely stay stuck on!
Make a habit out of taking drum off when you rotate tires and dump out the brake dust. They just do better if you do that now and then and it gives you the chance to check them, keeps the drum from getting stuck too. I put a smear of grease on the hubs as some cars can really be a problem to remove drums or rotors for that matter.
Note: Brake fluid and the parts that looks oily will rinse off with water but don't allow water into brake hydraulic system parts. Hardware is cheap insurance if you replace linings - drums can last a loooong time. If burn't just a tad from dragging you can sand them by hand a tad if they got a glaze. Dragging could have been from the dust alone! Heat will aggrevate the wheel cylinders which as Dave said aren't too expensive. If those are the ones that use a ring clip to hold them in they are a pill to get old ones out and should come with a new clip.......
T
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Jun 13, 2008, 9:09 AM
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Re: 1992 Pontiac Grand Am Back drum brake issue?
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Hey folks,
As always, I appreciate the fast and informative replies. One question I have-can I replace the cylinders in the drum brakes without having to bleed the brake lines? I've read that bleeding ABS brake lines is beyond the scope of the home mechanic and I feel like I should follow that statement. I understand drum brakes in theory but have no experience in personally repairing them. I've only watched it done one or two times. Anyone mind if I come here to have my hand held during the process?
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jun 13, 2008, 9:35 AM
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Re: 1992 Pontiac Grand Am Back drum brake issue?
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You can do it on this car Nate (sign in - we know it's you) !!
The original bleeder on those might not bleed anyway for any other problem so best to be done with those - they're probably originals. If line twists up you should be able to handle replacing those too.
Rubber plug the lines to loose the least fluid during the swap. Keep master cylinder full and leaver cover tight. I think this car you can bleed just the rears for this job. If they don't behave there could be a bleeder mid way on an ABS part - I don't have specifics but haven't had a problem but it can happen.
Once each wheel can bleed (guess you'll use a helper with the brake pedal way - right?) three times without air it should be fine. With brake shoes in proper adjustment, bled well the pedal will be firm as you would expect.
Note: Use only new brake fluid - you knew that. If fronts are involved don't retract pistons to push old fluid back to master in ABS cars especially, open bleeder at calipers for that as you don't want used junk going backwards.
Note again: Can't recall but if there are not bolts (guess- 10mm, 12m 3/8th, 7/16th) holding wheel cyl in then they use a distorted round clip. Been a while - you fish those loose and out anyway you can dream up and a new one is supplied. To install new one I've had luck holding wheel cylinder with a "C" clamp to backing plate or over and around with an exact right 12 point socket (brake line can't be in the way) that will just fit that new clip and it will snap in securely perhaps with a tap with a hammer.
We are here to help of course. If backing plate is all messed up you might need a new one. They recalled those on some GM models - a bit older than this car but there were problems with some. Free at GM or perhaps aftermarket now if needed.
Also: You do have "flare" nut wrenches don't you? Also - when a flare nut rounds up and twists a line then having to be replaced you can get the flare nuts out better if you cut off the line and then can use a six point socket. I know you are in upstate NY and road salt makes all these things a mess in no time flat so you get good at being a "how to deal with corrosion" mechanic fast!
Keep us posted,
T
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huxley
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Jun 13, 2008, 10:10 AM
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Re: 1992 Pontiac Grand Am Back drum brake issue?
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Hmm...alright.
I'm going to go price new cylinders and hopefully be able to figure this out. If I understand this correctly, ABS only applies to the front, correct? And my goal is to keep this job in the back and only in the back-if I can manage that then I won't get into trouble with ABS issues?
Also, what sort of tools will I need for this? I don't think I have flare nut wrenches, I'll have to check. I also know I don't have those spring tools and I'm not really all that familiar with how to use the damn things (assuming I'll even need them for this job?) I have no problem getting any of these tools so feel free to give me a list of useful items to have so I don't rip the hair out of my head. And any measurement tools that I might need to check adjustments and whatnot.
I might throw up some pictures on here later if that's a possibility or put up a link to an outside website that hosts them. I'm reading through my service manual and getting a bit confused. I never did like haynes all that much.
Thanks again Tom and all, I'm sure you'll hear more from me on this one!
-Nate
Oh-Tom-one other thing-I can rotate the tires myself? Is it true that they need to be balanced during this process?
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jun 13, 2008, 10:45 AM
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Re: 1992 Pontiac Grand Am Back drum brake issue?
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I think ABS might monitor all wheels - don't know. If wiring goes to the back of drum it has it. That alone isn't the big deal.
Flare nut wrenches are 5-6 point OPEN end wrenches to hover over a line. Plain open ends just don't cut it. Sears, Napa, the parts stores would have them and of course you'll want both metric and SAE as replacement lines could be SAE AND sometimes when hexes of nuts and bolts are rounded a close size in either metric or SAE can work so we will forever be able to use both.
Brake spring plier are available everywhere. That doesn't have the hold/down spring tool which is much easier than trying to do those with pliers. When doing all the springs and things - do just one side at a time - they should be mirror images of each other and shorter (if not equal) brake shoe lining (metal may be the same) goes toward the front of the car.
There's a set of drum brake tools. First one is for holdown springs and the scissor thing is the pliers. The last two are adjusting spoons you could probably do without. Hey - you can never have enough tools when things screw up.
 
Ok - Those are flare nut wrenches. One in use on a line and a set which shows they aren't just two point open ends for better grip. Six point (some show 5) as shown gives better grip but less choices of position then the attemps at a 12 point which is some lower # because some sides have to be missing.
These are all needed for this job. Bleeder wrenches are handy but you could probably use regular offset box wrenches,
T
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huxley
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Jun 15, 2008, 12:37 AM
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Re: 1992 Pontiac Grand Am Back drum brake issue?
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Mornin' all,
Tom, I'm pricing tools today and I should be getting to replacing those wheel cylinders sometime this week-weather is looking crappy of course because I live in Syracuse and I'm also still mildly apprehensive about it since it's a new job to me and I don't have my buddy around anymore to hold my hand through it. Oh well...
Anyway, I just wanted to say that the last few days the problem has stopped but it creeped up again this evening after probably well over 150 miles of driving the past day. I think it might be parking brake related. It wasn't as severe an action this time but I could sorta feel that side dragging a little little bit and not releasing like they should when I released the parking brake lever inside the car. I was able to temporarily fix it by setting the parking brake on again and then releasing it. I tried a couple hard stops on the way home and I can see the car is pulling to the right a little bit now. Damn brakes. I also remember a couple weeks ago when I set the parking brake and pushed it down then heard a loud noise and felt the parking brake go a little soft. I thought I broke something so I released it and set it again and it felt normal that time and has ever since. Could I have snapped something when I did this? No clue what it might have been if I did...
Ok well it's about past bedtime now but I'll come here with some theory questions before I dig into this and go from there.
Take care everyone,
Nate
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jun 15, 2008, 6:14 AM
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Re: 1992 Pontiac Grand Am Back drum brake issue?
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Morning Nate! The parking brake is wicked involved in the rear brakes. If that isn't right, nothing about the back service brakes will be right. You heard a snap and change in parking brake feel ---- gotta find out what and where!
For now I suggest not using the parking brake and seek level parking spot. It probably was/is dragging and that's going to mess up this job big time.
I'm at a loss as I don't know the exact way they did the parking brake on this. Just know that the force to release it is mechanical spring action - springs on cables inside with drum brakes and another where just one cable goes in to the car up front nearer the parking brake pedal - underneath car.
Cables must be free to move in their cases and release. There are a couple different ways the adjustment is set which is a nightmare to describe and should really only need doing once with cables when replaced and the rest is really the condition of the brakes shoes, drums, and the adjustment of those. I was hoping this wasn't involved with this job but it is and this will get tricky. Parking brakes are mechanical - not hydraulic and the failures come from LACK of use more than when routinely used as you said earlier and I was hoping this wasn't part of this job.
By the time a rear brake is noticed as the car "pulling" to one side it's dragging pretty hard! Fronts are sensitive with pulling - not so much the rear. You would easily feel the temp of the wheel from outside of a dragging brake.
A dragging drum brake may make removing the drum a real pill! If you can get in there - you should be able to pry parking brake cable to OFF mode so you can use the car till this is all straightened out.
Find out what broke, what works and if things are free moving, broken springs, cable(s) hanging low under car - whatever you can find and notice,
T
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huxley
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Jun 15, 2008, 3:30 PM
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Re: 1992 Pontiac Grand Am Back drum brake issue?
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Frustration is really setting in here for me now...
I'm no longer sure whether or not the parking brake is involved at all. I'm thinking it isn't an issue at this point.
I need to go through this again in my head...
Problem started after a long trip. Not immediately though. Ever since I acquired this car I have used the parking brake every single time I park it. I've put almost 10,000 miles on it. After the issue started to happen, I removed both rear wheels. Both drum brakes have leaky wheel cylinders. The rear right one had much more dust and sediment in it then the rear left one. The culprit is the rear right brake. I came to this conclusion by having a helper watch me stop the car. When I put the brake on, the back right wheel would skid and hop while the other three wheels would come to a normal stop. I had them drive while I watched. Same thing. It's almost as though the ABS is kicking in on that particular brake for some reason but not the others.
I took off the back right wheel again today and I also took off the front right wheel to check that side just in case. The front looks fine. The pads are a little close to the rotor-closer than I feel they should be sitting-but I can turn it by hand and I wouldn't know how to move them out anyway or if they're even supposed to be sitting farther away from the rotor.
The back looked the same. I took many pictures of the area and I plan on posting them later if anyone cares to look. The "pads" in the back (or are these referred to as something else with drum brakes? The linings?) are still looking good but they feel a bit sticky-as though they have been contaminated by the brake fluid. Everything else looks fine. I sprayed everything down with brake cleaner and then reassembled everything. Problem is still there this time. Shucks.
What I don't get is this-why is the left side working alright but the right side isn't when both wheel cylinders are leaking? The emergency brake cables look ok. Nothing is hanging. No hoses going to the brakes look like they're leaking or blocked. No lines look out of place. Everything looks pretty good. The brake fluid reservoir is looking fine. The ABS light goes off a couple seconds after the car is started. What is this problem even referred to as? Grabbing? Catching? The service manual I have lists completely different potential problems for such a thing-but I think it assumes that it's all the brakes in unison.
...should I simply replace the wheel cylinders and see where that leaves me?
Thanks everyone and happy fathers day to all the dads out there,
Nate
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jun 15, 2008, 5:16 PM
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Re: 1992 Pontiac Grand Am Back drum brake issue?
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Hey - Nate,
Here we are writing a book on this but bear with it.
Ok: Just pull fuse for ABS and it's inoperable but light will stay on, on dash. Then that's not in the mix. I don't think that's it anywho.
Now, just spin back wheels when hoisted. They should spin and coast by hand. If not the parking brake is involved OR a wheel cylinder is frozen - they can stay extended -- two little pistons in each and even when one freezes they can work but with reduced force on that wheel such that other side is more likely to lock up. Cylinders have to go anyway and I've never seen one freeze up ON but rather stuck such that it doesn't move.
They are wet as you noted. What happens is the friction between lining and metal of drum gets even a little fluid on them and the friction ability can be lessened or greater at assorted temps - there's where the funky lock ups can come from.
Doesn't take much brake fluid to make a mess in there either. The dust will collect on any dampness and then a chunk of that can fall to where friction is needed and there we go with erratic braking.
______________________
Off the exact topic: Water can do the same thing but dries out. About all cars had just drum brakes front and rear back when and hitting puddles was a trip and you needed to learn how to deal with NO brakes for a while, or wild pulling on one side. Trick was to purposely drag brakes with left foot so they were on (didn't allow much room) and stayed hot enough to steam off water instantly. That crap was normal antics for driving those cars.
Drum style brakes are fine but have quirks. They don't sling off dust and dirt which you will notice when a drum is removed it needs to be dumped out. They also don't dry out so fast or rinse out as a disc style will.
Way off Topic but neat: It's father's Day 2008. I still have my Father God Bless him. He told of days when he was young and no paved roads and it was a routine to stop and dump road dust out of the brakes as the cars would drag so bad they didn't move until you did!
________________________
Back to the wheel cylinders: You still have to remove the shoes, return springs, holdown springs etc., which will have parking brake parts involved and if those are fine can be put back without messing with them or adjusting those.
If brake linings are good but soaked in brake fluid they might rinse out with water and be ok over time. Replacing them is best and then you should get the spring hardware kit and have drums turned - this now means you will have to adjust the service brakes to the new drum size (larger dia by a tad if turned) and new shoes mean retracting the adjustment back in which no doubt self adjusted to compensate for wear so far with those brakes.
BTT - kinda - if dragging is oil/fluid then decide on replacement shoes or clean up. If dragging and locking wheel was because of parking brake and could be as even if it only dragged a little or randomly it was already at some level of force and with regular braking it just added to the force so that wheel would brake harder.
Anpother note: Hot brakes actually lose it and don't have much friction when toasty hot. At that extreme you can smell it and usually see smoke coming from that wheel.
Ok - your turn - what did I miss?
T
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Jun 16, 2008, 10:53 AM
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Re: 1992 Pontiac Grand Am Back drum brake issue?
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So, yet again, today is fine so far.
Tom-I tried to find a fuse to pull for the ABS system but no such luck. The only thing I was able to find was the gauge fuse for the light but that won't help at all. There is a fuse to pull for all of that stuff but it's Canadian models only for whatever reason. Am I looking in the wrong place?
I drove around a bit anyway. At first there was a slight issue that I could feel but not nearly as violent and apparent as before. It went away fairly quickly. I did a hard stop to test my ABS functioning. All seems good. It kicked in without issue, no pulling on one side or the other, and then I hear the click when I started to drive away from it again.
I took some pictures of the area yesterday and I'll just give a link here...
[URL=http://img395.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1000880vk8.jpg]
[URL=http://img115.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1000881fy0.jpg]
[URL=http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1000883sq3.jpg]
[URL=http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1000884vd8.jpg]
[URL=http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1000885jv6.jpg]
[URL=http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1000886bn0.jpg]
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huxley
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Jun 16, 2008, 11:05 AM
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Re: 1992 Pontiac Grand Am Back drum brake issue?
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And that's me up there. Also, those thumbnails aren't clickable like they're supposed to be. If you want much larger and much more detailed versions just copy and paste the url and they become huge. Fair warning for any of you with dial up!
Tom-few things I forgot to ask...
1. Why is it okay to bleed ABS brakes on this car but usually I'm told never to attempt this job myself? Is it fear mongering or does it have something to do with the age or what?
2. And I'm not sure what this problem is referred to as but if I look under "grabbing or uneven braking action" in the troubleshooting section of my Haynes manual I get A. Malfunction of proportioner valves B. Malfunction of power brake booster unit and C. Binding brake pedal mechanism. Should I even bother to look into these issues with what I've described thus far or is this just common guesses that may or may not be the issue?
Thanks and no rush on this one-bad weather looms ahead so I won't even be able to do much until mid week at the earliest.
-Nate
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jun 16, 2008, 12:07 PM
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Re: 1992 Pontiac Grand Am Back drum brake issue?
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The pics help a lot. This does't look too messed up with brake fluid or rust. This parking brake is easier to deal with than some - good news. It doesn't show any wires in the pics so ABS may not be on the back brakes at all ?? Dunno on that.
What might be happening is the backing plate has worn a slot such that shoes don't retract. That happens when lube which is put on a pad of backing plate has expired and the metal of the shoe makes a worn in spot - more common when brakes are under adjusted and travel farther to contact the drum and can make a popping noise going oved the groove made unseen with shoe in place. If you look at outer edge of the metal of the shoes there will be a "v" type dip in the metal on the outside showing where it would contact the rubbing spot on the inside. Note - the shoes are such that the metal can be used on either side.
There's a "star" adjuster at the bottom that freqently doesn't turn to self adjust these and the sharpness of the lever to star gets worn - about all do this and need periodic manual adjustment. With shoes off you could scrape down the backing plate and relube it, take star adjuster apart and lube it all up, clean drum and shoes with "brakleen" (don't get that on rubber parts) lightly sandpaper the shoe's lining and when reinstalled and adjusted up they would feel like new. Hard to see but they don't look so evenly worn and cutting the drum might help as shoes don't look worn out - hard to see that close. That pic show the metal rod that goes from top anchor to the pivot arm for the adjustment. Not seen clearly is a bar under the wheel cylinder that connects front and rear shoes and should have a spring on one end. If you look where the park cable comes in and attached by a ball or barrel at the end of cable with spring around just the exposed cable that when pulled with the cable moves the lever and the bar pushes both shoes out to contact shoes to drums. The connecting bar spring should have some small room to compress if you just push the connecting bar by hand. If not - try prying back the way the spring on cable is pushing where it connects towards "retract" and if that moves and then allows the connecting bar to have the semi-loose spring when you do that then the cable isn't fully letting go. I don't think there a problem with that right now but rather the backing plate to shoes have worn in a grove that inhibits the free return of the shoes to "home" position.
I don't see enough brake fluid in there for alarm with just these pics.
If all that check out then removing the parts, scraping the contact area of backing plate, lubing it and lube up threads on star adjuster and the tip that will come off with "specific" brake lube grease, adjust it with the star and a "spoon" is the name of the tool but a screwdriver can work such that shoes in home position - as seen by contact all the way back to the round anchor at top and bump shoes to set in place (hard to explain) and adjust the star such that shoes move out. Out is closer clearance between linings and drum in the direction the lever would turn the start. Many are reverse threaded for one side of car. Adjust so you can put the drum back on and it will fight getting over a rust ridge with drum not new or just turned but should go back on and spin without rubbing but close. There's a puch out slot so you can adjust these in backing plate or perhaps thru drum but you don't need that if they aren't punched out now with a oblong rubber plug that fits in those. If adjusted too far you need to hold that lever away from the star to go the opposite direction. When you have to do this thru the punched hole you need the real brake spoon and a little screwdriver to hold that lever away from the star as it won't turn to loosen adjustment with it touching. Confused enough?
That stuff is second nature to me and confusing the first time you see it all happen which I wish you could just once dammit.
All those springs and things look confusing at first till you get the idea. In putting this all in there are times when the parts all fall to the floor and you just go back one step at a time. Use an untouched other side as a reference or take a pic before you start. Remember the right and left sides are mostly "asymetrically" opposite such that things are postioned regarding the direction of rotation which is yes the same as it rolls but placement is "towards front" differently - just a mirror image if you will.
Again: Shoe with more lining goes to the rear end of the car. That shoe does more work than the front one and when you hit brakes while going in reverse the rear shoe will pull away from the anchor up top against the return spring which pulls on the metal rod and if enough motion before shoe contacts drum will turn the start a notch which makes it self adjusting if everything is free to work. All lubed up some mindless hard stops in reverse can do a final adjustment of the back brakes.
Those being properly adjusted will make the parking brake work better and sooner (fewer clicks) to hold the car.
Again II: no parking brake cable adjustment is called for unless one is replace or a new brake job doesn't work or parts fit right almost always because it was adjusted improperly once before but this car has so few miles there's not so much chance you are battling mistakes made before you got it.
So for now what I see is the need for clean, lube and adjust and the possibility of getting the drums turned might help a lot. I'm not sure the wheel cylinders are the issue from the pics. If they are free to move (you could see this with drum off and someone pushig brake but just a tad till the first motion then quit or piston of wheel cylinders could overextend and fall out - don't let that happen please, or with shoes removed you can just push the slotted bullets that go into ends of the wheel cylinder back and forth to proove they are free. You're there, I'm not so your call on replacement of the wheel cylinders.
This isn't wasted learning with this stuff as drum brakes are still out there and some vehicles are using a small drum inside rotors for the parking brake. Each a little different but similar ideas prevail.
Ok: Now ask back at what I just confused you the most with!
T
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huxley
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Aug 27, 2008, 11:10 PM
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Re: 1992 Pontiac Grand Am Back drum brake issue?
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Hey all,
So over two months later what am I doing? Why I'm replacing (err trying to replace) my wheel cylinders. And I want to be lazy doing this but I'm not going to be able to, am I? Probably not.
My problem thus far-I cannot get the line going directly into the back of the wheel cylinder off. I tried the flare nut wrench to no avail. It just strips the damn thing. Seriously, I tried metric and SAE and neither worked very well. Metric worked better, but not well enough to get the damn thing off. Now I feel like I need to replace the whole line once I finally get that nut backed off unless there is a way to just replace that connecting piece? Doubt it.
Next is the wheel cylinder-once I finally get the brake line going into the back of it off, what then? I can't get the wheel cylinder out without taking apart the entirety of the drum brake. Is there a way I can just simply remove the backing plate/axle flange or do I need to bite the bullet and get all those drum brake removal tools? I really wish that plate just came off in a manner that I could figure out-I'd like to replace my wheel studs anyway.
Anyone inclined to help me out and slap me for letting it go this long is more than welcome to! Tom, if you see this, I hope you're doing well! And don't be too hard on me, I've been riding the motorcycle around for the most part and the car stopped doing that thing it was doing.
Thanks as per usual...and next I'll be asking about the 1995 Astro Van RWD that I picked up Tom! I can hear the excitement from here...
-Nate
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Tom Greenleaf
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Aug 28, 2008, 6:10 AM
Post #16 of 17
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Re: 1992 Pontiac Grand Am Back drum brake issue?
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How to double-flare a brake line By Rob Robinette
If you have to cut a brake line you will have to double-flare it to connect it to a flare pipe fitting. You'll need a pipe cutter ($7 Home Depot) and a double-flare tool ($40 Pep Boys). Put the pipe cutter on the brake line where you want to cut it. You may have to release one end of the line to allow you to gently bend it up enough to get the pipe cutter on and spin it around. Gently tighten the knob on the cutter and then spin the cutter around the pipe about three times and then tighten the knob a little more and repeat then repeat these steps until the line breaks in two. The stock RX-7 brake lines have a protective black plastic coating that will have to be removed before the flare nut will slip over the line. You will need to remove about 1 1/4 inches of the coating on each tube end so you will be able to slide on the flare nut far enough to allow the pipe flare tool to grip the pipe. After you cut off the coating you will have to use sandpaper to remove the thick green paint and adhesive that's below the black coating. Once you can slide the flare nut on the tube enough to get the flare tool clamp on you're golden.  Using pipe cutter to remove metric flare nut Follow the directions to use the double-flare tool. You will need to smooth out the outer edge of the pipe with a file and use a deburring tool (or a large drill bit) to smooth out the inside edge of the pipe.  Double-flare tool with pipe clamped, ready to flare (note both flare nuts are in place on pipe) REMEMBER TO PUT THE FLARE NUT ON THE PIPE BEFORE YOU FLARE IT OR YOU WILL HAVE TO CUT OFF YOUR NICE NEW FLARE AND START OVER! Put the flare tool's pipe clamp on using its 3/16 inch hole, expose the required amount of pipe, clamp it down, attach the 3/16 inch adapter, screw it down on the pipe while watching the pipe to make sure it doesn't slide out of the clamp, back out the clamp and remove the adapter, then finish the double-flare by screwing down the flare tool into the pipe. It's easier than it sounds, just follow the directions that come with the tool. Repeat for the other brake line end. If you screw up the brake line you can buy pre-fabricated 3/16 inch brake lines of various lengths at an auto parts store, you just have to bend them to fit. They are pre-flared and have the metric or standard flare nuts already installed.  Making the first part of the double-flare with the adapter Blow some WD-40 or other solvent through your short line and then blow compressed air through the line to dry it out. Push the brake pedal a little to flush some brake fluid through the line coming from the master cylinder-this must be done to remove any debris that got into the line during cutting, sanding and flaring.  Making the second part of the double-flare without the adapter Warning You must torque the brake line nuts to 113-190 inch pounds! (about 10-15 foot pounds) If you don't you run the risk of having a nut come lose and dump all of your brake pressure which will result in total brake loss! (The parking brake may still work)  The finished brake pipe with flares at both ends Rob Robinette
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Aug 28, 2008, 6:32 AM
Post #17 of 17
(4237 views)
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Re: 1992 Pontiac Grand Am Back drum brake issue?
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Nate: Found that tidbit which shows brake line 101 if you will. The now rounded flare nut is probably also stuck to the line inside and would twist up the line such that replacement is now necessary.
That post before this showed the tools and you can beat those prices. Brake line work is all about labor and know how more than expense of parts.
If you cut the line close to the nut the wheel cylinder will come out with flare nut still stuck in it or you can then use SIX point sockets/wrench perhaps to get it out of the way to remove the cylinder if needed. An assortment of metric and SAE sockets will usually have one you can hammer tight over distorted remaining flare nut for removal also.
WELCOME TO THE WIDE WORLD OF RUST AND BRAKE LINES!
Ok: You may get lucky and find premade brake line with flare nuts ready to bend to proper postion along route that will fit or just get a real long one and cut it and you can use the flare nuts that come with them.
If you've got the staying power you too can learn how to deal with this. These type lines and nuts are on several things in a car so it's not wasted know how but is critically important to do right especially with brakes.
You'll notice that when making a lne up you will want to measure length of old one. Err a tad longer for replacement or you can fail and need to make another. Brake line will bend and not kink for the most part using bending tool or even rounded items like a hammer handle with your hands will do. IT'S CRITICAL THAT LINE BE PUT BACK IN THE LOCATION OF THE ORIGINAL AND SECURED AS ORIGINAL WAS. THEY ARE PLACE SUCH THAT ROAD DEBRIS AND JACKING OF VEHICLES IS UNLIKELY TO SQUISH THE LINES SO LOCATION IS IMPORTANT.
Also: You'll find that your new line will no doubt be a degree or more off with the last angle needed to secure it to wheel cylinder and at the other end. DON'T CROSS THREAD THESE!!!! Keep trying till you get a full good turn by hand before putting wrench on them.
You might also be able to cut the existing line where it is still good and then flare the original line with a new nut and union effectively replacing just the section that's bad.
Know that all this also means bleeding brakes and those may act up on you too and turn a one dollar flare nut into a series of needed work to get it all back working. Not to frighten you but it can domino from one line to the next till you are dealing with good stuff again up to all new line all the way but not usually that intense.
Keep trying and I'll keep trying to explain as troubles come up,
T
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