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johnt
User
Aug 10, 2010, 2:27 PM
Post #1 of 18
(2859 views)
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97 chevy cavalier
2.2 4 cyl 138,000
Car was acting weird last 4 days. daughter driving it to work this morning and the car just quit.
Had it towed to shop and he said valves are not moving probably the timing belt.
My question is would the timing belt breaking have anyhting to do with the other symtoms earlier in the week?
We bought the car for $1300 a year ago. The mechanic is telling me this will cost $1000 to fix. Is this worth the fix or not?
Thanks in advance
john
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Aug 10, 2010, 2:31 PM
Post #2 of 18
(2855 views)
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Well, that theory would be fine except for one problem. Your car doesn't have a timing belt. If that shop is trying to sell you a timing belt, you may want to get a second opinion.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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johnt
User
Aug 10, 2010, 2:55 PM
Post #3 of 18
(2848 views)
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I called him back and he said timing chain. Could there be symptons before it broke causing the earlier problems.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Aug 10, 2010, 3:04 PM
Post #4 of 18
(2845 views)
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That engine is not known for having timing belt problems and the mileage isn't really that high. make sure they have confirmed that is really the problem. It could have given you the previous symptoms as it jumped a tooth but it's pretty rare.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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johnt
User
Aug 10, 2010, 3:20 PM
Post #5 of 18
(2841 views)
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What else could have caused the earlier problems and now the valves not moving?
it seems like timing chain fits
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Aug 10, 2010, 3:27 PM
Post #6 of 18
(2835 views)
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If the valves aren't moving, it's either a broken timing chain or broken camshaft. It's just unusual. It may also be an interference engine so it's possible to have a lot of valve damage from this also. you won't know until the timing chain is fixed first.
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johnt
User
Aug 10, 2010, 3:41 PM
Post #7 of 18
(2831 views)
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If it was camshaft would I get the earlier problems or would it just quit when it broke.
He told me it is not an interference engine. He said he had valve cover off and there appeared to be no damage.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Aug 10, 2010, 3:46 PM
Post #8 of 18
(2828 views)
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I don't know how he can say that. GM did not release info defining that engine as interference or non interference. You certainly can't tell by simply removing the valve cover. If the head of the valve gets bent from hitting the piston, the only way to find out is with a compression test and you need a good timing chain for that. It can be tested with air pressure in the cylinder but you have to be able to rotate the cam for that.
Here is some info published by Alldata concerning that engine
GM does not specify if this engine is an interference engine or not.
To be safe, always observe the following precautions.
If cylinder head is installed on the cylinder block:
- DO NOT turn the crankshaft or camshaft if the timing belt/chain is not installed or if the camshaft timing has not been confirmed to be correct.
- DO NOT rotate engine backwards.
- If a broken or "jumped" timing belt/chain is suspected, DO NOT use the starter to crank the engine.
- If a "catch" is felt when rotating the engine by hand, DO NOT attempt force the engine to rotate past the "catch".
If cylinder head is removed (overhead cam engines):
- Do not set cylinder head on a flat surface with combustion chamber down.
When re-installing a cylinder head:
- Confirm that the crankshaft AND camshaft gears align with their respective timing marks or confirm that all shafts are set to TDC for cylinder # 1 BEFORE placing the cylinder head onto the cylinder block.
If the timing chain/belt has broken of "jumped time" with the engine running, always check for bent valves by pressurizing each cylinder with air with it's valves in the closed position.
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johnt
User
Aug 10, 2010, 5:05 PM
Post #9 of 18
(2822 views)
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I am definetly not an expert on cars. I would figure there has to be a way to find out if this is an interference engine or not. The timming belt has never went on one of these cars? I am confused. This is not the space shuttle we are talking about.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Aug 10, 2010, 5:08 PM
Post #10 of 18
(2818 views)
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No, the only way to know if an engine is interference or not is if the manufacturer tells you. They make the information readily available on engines with timing belts but rarely on engines with timing chains. As I already said. timing chain failures are rare on this engine.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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chickenhouse
Enthusiast
Aug 10, 2010, 9:03 PM
Post #11 of 18
(2808 views)
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So, do a compression test! Will tell you a lot!
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Sidom
Veteran
/ Moderator
Aug 10, 2010, 9:19 PM
Post #12 of 18
(2808 views)
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It's pretty obvious your knowledge is limited on todays cars.
With some vehicles having in excess of 20 onboard computers all networked together. Todays cars are some of the most complex machinery available to the public today. So while, No it's not a shape shuttle...These aren't skateboards we are talking about either. If you think you "old school" 97 only has 1 computer on it.... you may want to research that further as well...
Just because an engine doesn't do damage when a belt or chain breaks, doesn't mean it's a non-interference or free wheeling engine. I have done a bunch of interference engines with broken belts that did no damage. Interference just mean there is a chance (with some a very good chance) that engine damage may have occurred. Personally I have a static test I do on all SOHC & DOHC interference engines with broken belts. While passing the test doesn't guarantee no damage. Failing the test is a 100% guarantee of damage. What it means in a nutshell is if they ruin their engine and decline the work they are looking at 1.5 hrs diag time as opposed to 4 to 5 hrs diag time...
It sounds like your tech is checking valve height. If one is sitting low with the rocker off the high side of the cam lobe then you have damage. If they all "look" good then the only next logical step would be to put a new chain (or repair whatever damage there is) and then check the compression...
(This post was edited by Sidom on Aug 10, 2010, 9:21 PM)
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johnt
User
Aug 11, 2010, 5:30 AM
Post #13 of 18
(2794 views)
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Well checking other websites and asking around, the info I gathered is telling me it is not an interference engine.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Aug 11, 2010, 5:35 AM
Post #14 of 18
(2790 views)
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You'll find out after changing the timing chain. Might be true, might not. Nobody has any documentation one way or the other. They are giving you opinions.
If you researched other forums maybe you saw this post.
#10 of 187 Re: S10 1995 2.2 JUST DIE / pls help [hoodlatch] by vikan Jul 16, 2006 (5:29 pm) Replying to: Yes, I did ensure the timing marks on the camshaft gear and crank gear were aligned with the marks that so happen to be on the tensioner itself. Since the post, I have pulled the timing cover off and rechecked that to make sure. Then, for the sake of curiosity to see if I was out of time 180 degrees, I lined up the marks on the gears, then turned the crank one complete turn, which put the cam gear at one half turn OFF the mark, pulled the gear and chain off and realigned the camshaft so my camshaft gear would be properly aligned once again with the crank and reassembled everything. It started up and ran the exact same way....like hell. SO, I ended doing a compression check and found that cylinders 3 and 4 were zero. I called the local chevy dealer and they said that the 2.2 is NOT an interference engine, however, there have been incidences where there have been contact between pistons and valves. I think it was because i was rolling along at 65 mph. I just got the head back from the machine shop with a full valve job. They replaced 4 bent valves on cylinders 3 and 4. I have never done a timing chain or belt on a distributorless engine. It's weird not being able to see which cylinder my distributor is supposedly firing on. Any tips on this?
Here's another
Re: is a chevy s10 2.2 a non interference engine?
My chain jumped while sitting at a stoplight, at idle and I bent all 4 intake valves, so I would have to say it IS an inteference motor.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Aug 11, 2010, 6:31 AM)
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Aug 11, 2010, 6:30 AM
Post #15 of 18
(2780 views)
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Here's some more for you
Re: is the 2.2 or the 2200 an interference engine? Tuesday, September 19, 2006 12:59 PM
   Well, just a little update on this post, i pulled the head, and amazingly, the cylinder walls are perfect!!  So happy. Anyways, the valve stem lodged itself into the piston, they became one! I can't even pull it out. It's like it's welded to the piston. Anyways, that's good because it didn't mess up the cylinder walls anywhere! The head is all messed up, so i've got a new one from patriot performance, and got it cryotreated as well, with new 1 mm oversized valves. Now, i just have to replace the piston.
knowledgeable about it that you should know. Now, your comment
about the tensioner has got me thinking. The after market ones
are around $20. I have not looked at one yet. There was another
post i found on Google about a guy who said he had tensioners go
bad ever 3000 to 5000 miles and it drove him nuts. Could this
be the issue with the aftermarket tensioners being crap?
Talked to my brother in law who talked to his friend who does
GM work and he seemed to think that most of the time only the
top cam gear and chain need to be replaced (and tensioner).
Do you think after market parts are OK for the chain and cam gear?
He also said he has seen some 2.2's with holes in the pistons and
bent valves. IN the units you have seen, how common is this?
Bob
03-10-09, 07:59 PM Im sorry I didnt catch the year on yours....I just finished doing a chain on a 03 cavalier with the 2.2 ecotec today. They are interference engines. And they are notoriously bad for breaking chain guides and tensioners. The tensioners are not hydro, they are spring loaded and Im sure that has something to do with it. If yours has the 2.2 eco engine, then it might be that the balance shafts that are off. which would require complete tear down to resest the balance shafts timing chain.
If its an older 2.2 they are listed as Non interfernce, But I replaced one a while back that snapped and IT DID BEND THE VALVES.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Aug 11, 2010, 6:32 AM)
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johnt
User
Aug 11, 2010, 7:00 AM
Post #16 of 18
(2773 views)
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When a shop tells you it is the timming chain and then they replace it for $900(alot of money for me), and something else is wrong what do you tell the customer. I definetly see your dilema and I am sure you see the customers If everything was diagnosed correctly the first time and the shop owner tells me all the repairs would cost$2000 that would change my decision about the repairs. But if I put the $900 into it and something else is wrong now I feel like I was taken for a ride.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Aug 11, 2010, 7:13 AM
Post #17 of 18
(2770 views)
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As you should have been already told, many issues simply cannot be determined before other disassembly or other repairs are made. Whenever I get a situation like this I try to make the customer aware or the worst case scenario along with my best guess of what their situation may be. Unfortunately, you just aren't going to know if the valves are bent until you fix the timing chain and you should have already been made aware of that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Aug 11, 2010, 7:18 AM)
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Sidom
Veteran
/ Moderator
Aug 11, 2010, 8:34 PM
Post #18 of 18
(2754 views)
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Well communication sometimes is the biggest problem. I wasn't there so I don't know what was said when you originally took the car in. What HT was telling you he does happens at my shop as well. In situations like this it is "crystal" clear this work needs to be performed 1st to be able to fully check out the engine out.
The static test I mentioned isn't a guarantee of no damage, it just means the next step would be to put a belt or chain on the engine and confirm there isn't any damage. Until that is done there is no guarantees...
Now I'm not trying to be a wise guy but maybe answering this question may help you understand a little better. You seem to be stuck on the point that the tech should've of been aware of this damage prior to the work that was done
What I want to know is.......
What test, for around an hour of labor could of this tech have performed that would've guaranteed, either a good engine or a bad engine?
You can't answer I don't know or I'm not a mechanic because you are really pushing this point like he missed something or is ripping you off.
If there is another industry accepted method of checking these engines with this problem, that isn't labor intensive and would combine with doing the job I would like to know...
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