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breeze idling rough& pulling at stops


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RoughBreezing
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Jul 8, 2012, 1:25 AM

Post #1 of 24 (1297 views)
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I have a 1997 plymouth breeze 2.0 SOHC with auto 4 speed tranny I got about a month ago it has 142500 on the odometer. I have two major problems with it...

1) When I am coming to a stop I feel the car shift to what should be neutral as I reach 3-4 MPH, then the car starts pulling itself forward in small bounces like I'm in a 5 speed and forgot to hit the clutch. It has stalled the engine a couple times but for the most part it doesn't...

2)the idle is pretty rough at times and vibrates the steering
wheel badly it has a chugging sound to it but still runs at 750 RPM I have seen it raise the rpm just a hair and the chugging stops and the engine is pretty smooth I was going to adjust the idle air screw but there is none and no MAF sensor to clean. If i rev the engine a bit it has a problem catching itself and will often stall even in gear in stop and go traffic when I start the car the RPMs go up and then drop to 500 or less then even out.

Both of these problems seem to come and go or at least get worse /better at times. I cleaned the throttle body the plugs and wires are ok aside from a bit of oil leaking into the plug compartment that I clean out regularly I used a bunch of fuel injector cleaner. The exhaust doesn't smell very rich or lean. I can't find a vac leak and the egr valve seems to be working properly the CAT rattles and I'm thinking about tapping it out. the car seems to run better when completely topped off with oil. all fluid levels are good and I'm sure there would be an engine light but its burnt out

Long post I know thanks in advance for any help


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Jul 8, 2012, 8:37 AM

Post #2 of 24 (1255 views)
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Code reading would help now. If bulbs don't light as a bulb check with just key to "run" or some just while cranking perhaps that is a problem,

T
_________________________________________
Long retired now


Discretesignals
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Jul 8, 2012, 10:41 AM

Post #3 of 24 (1245 views)
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I agree with Tom, you need to have the computer scanned. Write down the code numbers.

Number 1 sound like the symptoms of a torque converter clutch staying engaged when coming to a stop.


Quote
aside from a bit of oil leaking into the plug compartment that I clean out regularly I used a bunch of fuel injector cleaner.


If you mean that oil is leaking into the spark plug wells, you need to replace the valve cover gasket and tube seals.


Hollow a cat out? I didn't just read that did I?





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.

(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jul 8, 2012, 10:48 AM)


RoughBreezing
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Jul 9, 2012, 3:07 PM

Post #4 of 24 (1217 views)
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Ok so I took the car to advanced auto and had it read its throwing codes P0403 and P1390. I believe he said an egr valve flow problem and something about a misfire for the second. I don't have a lot of money to throw at the car, but I guess my first step is to replace the valve cover gaskets, plugs and wires and see if it gets rid of the misfire(which i don't hear or feel at speed, does that make sense?). As far as the egr valve goes should I be able to see it move when revving the engine? And does anyone know where to find a diagram of which hoses are the vac hoses so I can check them better? Also I was convinced it was the torque converter lockup sticking too from how its acting and I still kinda think it is. wouldn't the car have reported it by now though? Thanks for the help!

Oh and I thought maybe the cat was clogged and tapping it out is free (Sorry ozone). its my girls only transport and I could really use a cheap fix as were tight on cash for another month or so and she is afraid to drive it, heaven forbid it stalls :)


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Jul 9, 2012, 3:15 PM

Post #5 of 24 (1212 views)
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Misfire? I don't see any misfire code.

The P1390 says your timing belt jumped and you have an EGR issue.
Your first step is to immediately stop trying to run it and replace the timing belt.




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RoughBreezing
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Jul 9, 2012, 6:11 PM

Post #6 of 24 (1199 views)
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Hmm the guy said something about a misfire for the second definately nothing about a timing belt. Does the head have to come off to get to the timing belt?


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Jul 9, 2012, 6:13 PM

Post #7 of 24 (1196 views)
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No, it doesn't.

The only way it could be a misfire code is if you transposed the numbers from PO304 to PO403 but the other code is still a timing belt problem and that can cause a misfire.




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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Discretesignals
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Jul 9, 2012, 6:16 PM

Post #8 of 24 (1194 views)
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One common problem on those engines that sets that P1390 is a sheared cam sprocket dowel pin. Pull the cover off and inspect the pin too.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.

(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jul 9, 2012, 6:17 PM)


RoughBreezing
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Jul 9, 2012, 6:55 PM

Post #9 of 24 (1183 views)
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Is it possible I can re align the timing belt if its not bad or will I have to get a new one? I guess they can't cost all that much. The sheared cam sprocket, I'm assuming you mean under the valve cover...will it be easily noticable to a mechanical mind with limited car experience?


Discretesignals
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Jul 9, 2012, 7:06 PM

Post #10 of 24 (1180 views)
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I suggest you take it to your local mechanic and have them check it out. If you haven't ever done a timing belt change before, that engine isn't one you want learn on. You get it wrong and you'll end up with major engine damage and one pissed off GF. You won't be able to see a sheared dowel until you remove the cam sprocket.


edit: If it hasn't ever seen a timing belt replacement and you have 140K something on it, it is way overdue.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.

(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jul 9, 2012, 7:17 PM)


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Jul 9, 2012, 7:13 PM

Post #11 of 24 (1175 views)
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To add to that, no, you definitely don't want to re-use the belt and you should also replace the tensioner and water pump while in there.




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RoughBreezing
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Jul 9, 2012, 9:57 PM

Post #12 of 24 (1162 views)
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My moms b/f is a retired mechanic and he already offered to help change the valve cover gasket and tube seals I'm sure he will do the timing belt too but all I can find in way of timing belts is full kits for 250 and up is it possible to just get the belt? I only have about 250 total to throw at it and I need to get gaskets plugs wires and the timing belt. Will 250 cover that if I can get the work done for free? EGR will have to wait a bit I guess.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Jul 9, 2012, 10:03 PM

Post #13 of 24 (1157 views)
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Let me make this perfectly clear to you. If you skimp on this job or make even a small mistake in installing it, you will be looking at a couple thousand in repairs. This engine is not forgiving. One turn of the engine with the belt out of time will bend nearly every valve. If this guy has been retired for more than a few years, he will not be familiar enough with doing this job.
I recommend you pay a shop to do this.




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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Jul 9, 2012, 10:04 PM)


nickwarner
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Jul 9, 2012, 11:37 PM

Post #14 of 24 (1147 views)
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Park it until you can pay a pro to do this or let the other guy send it to the scrapyard. I know it sucks to be broke but HT and DS can tell you the same horror stories I can of people who thought they could save a buck with having any so-called mechanic fic this motor. Just being able to fix some brakes or a radiator doesn't make you a true tech. Thats what we give to junior techs and even they screw the pooch from time to time. This isn't something for someone who isn't fully versed in late model engines with the toolset to go with it.

Wonder why its so damn expensive to see a mechanic for this? Thank Chrysler.


RoughBreezing
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Jul 11, 2012, 12:28 AM

Post #15 of 24 (1126 views)
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Taking it to a shop probably won't be an option for me unfortunately. I was charged over 700 bucks for brake shoes engine mount windshield wipers and inspection! My options here are going to be junk it, run it into the ground or take it to my moms b/f (he's 60 and retired pretty close to 3 years now but because his spine is deteriorating not because of incompetence). at least ill have a shot at keeping it on the street with option 3 and at the very least this can be a 'what not to do to your car' post. At any rate ill keep updating this thread with any major happenings until its fixed or in the junk yard just so the information is out there.

PS: I'm not purposely ignoring you guys' advice. I just really am that broke. Thanks a million for pointing me in the right direction I would have been trying to solve a misfire problem that was really only the tip of the iceberg.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Jul 11, 2012, 6:22 AM

Post #16 of 24 (1119 views)
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Being broke is not going to make this job turn out any better. If he has back problems, this is not the job to try.




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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



nickwarner
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Jul 11, 2012, 11:47 PM

Post #17 of 24 (1106 views)
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Here is one thing you can do for not a lot of money. Do to www.alldataDIY.com and get a year subscription to this car. I think its about $25. Haynes manuals don't cut it and if this guy was a pro at a good shop he has used it before. This is the data provider we all use and it costs a shop several hundred a month to have access to the whole database. Let him read through the procedure carefully and see what special tools are involved. Then he can make an informed decision as to if he can do this or not. If he can't, see if you can place decently in a demo derby because you have very little time til boom to get some cash together for another car and may as well have fun with it for the last hurrah.

If he hasn't used Alldata before, don't let him do the job. This isn't a riding lawnmower or the cars we had 20 years ago. The warnings we have given are for good reason and we have all seen wrecked engines from novices attempting to save a buck or buying just a belt instead of the kit. Your $30 water pump can and will wreck your head when it takes out the timing belt and you won't get any warning.


RoughBreezing
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Jul 12, 2012, 1:49 AM

Post #18 of 24 (1101 views)
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I messaged him earlier and described what was going on and asked if he was comfortable replacing the timing belt if it wasn't a sheared cam sprocket pin. he goes to sleep early so I should have an answer in the morning. I didn't read about the alldataDIY till after I messaged him but ill be sure to ask him about it and ask if he would want me to subscribe.

Also, would a bad cam/crankshaft sensor throw the same code (P1390) or does it generate its own code? Is there any way to check them without a volt/multimeter?


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Jul 12, 2012, 6:14 AM

Post #19 of 24 (1095 views)
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Quote
Also, would a bad cam/crankshaft sensor throw the same code (P1390) or does it generate its own code? Is there any way to check them without a volt/multimeter?


We have told you exactly what that code means. If it could mean something else, we would have told you that.




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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



RoughBreezing
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Jul 23, 2012, 9:15 PM

Post #20 of 24 (1015 views)
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Turns out the timing belt assembly is brand new but the cam shaft is just less than a half tooth to the right when TDC. We didn't have a puller for the large pully so we couldn't adjust it though. I was messing with the EGR valve today and its functioning but not completely closing. When I hold it closed with a screw driver the idle stops chugging and sounds great. Do you think its carbon buildup since I can still press it closed or would a vac leak do the same thing? I'm planning on taking it off tomorrow and taking a look at it. ill post my findings

The car has been being drivin this whole time. Since the assembly is new I'm just going to take my chances with it especially after hearing how nice the idle was with the egr closed


nickwarner
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Jul 25, 2012, 9:36 PM

Post #21 of 24 (984 views)
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If you can push that EGR valve manually and make all troubles cease, you pretty much confirmed the issue. They can and do get sticky with age. I'd swap it out and good luck with the car. Thanks for coming back to post the fix, helps plenty of people who search older posts for similar info on their cars.


RoughBreezing
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Jul 26, 2012, 8:41 PM

Post #22 of 24 (966 views)
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The garage that did the timing belt before I owned the car, also charged me for turned rotors and new brake pads which they never actually touched... Never going to them again. Sad thing is they are a pretty established business here in central PA. Anyway, I'm not sure what the valve positioning would be at ignition with it being off that little bit but my moms b/f said it could already have a slightly bent valve but I'm assuming it will run as is untill the new assembly starts going bad right? I can definately live with how the engine sounds with the egr closed. And since it was hopping to the chug of the engine I'm hoping it will cure that too or at least dampen it. I was going to take it off and look at it but the seal to the exit of the egr looks pretty rough so ill have to wait till I get an extra hundred or so for a new unit. Some people online said you can clean them but mine looks original so its probably way past that point.


nickwarner
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Jul 26, 2012, 10:48 PM

Post #23 of 24 (959 views)
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If you had a bent valve you would have a dead miss on the cylinder and no EGR valve would help, just a new head. By the fact it runs better when you are manually closing the EGR points me toward a bad valve. Don't bother trying to clean it. Once it gets to this point new is the only way to go.


RoughBreezing
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Jul 27, 2012, 12:28 AM

Post #24 of 24 (957 views)
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Thanks for all the help! I should be able to swing a hundred with my next pay and close this thread for good hopefully.




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