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Seemingly Impossible To Fix Rough/Rich Running Problems
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kxri318
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Apr 30, 2023, 8:58 PM
Post #1 of 22
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Seemingly Impossible To Fix Rough/Rich Running Problems
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I've got a 1986 Ford Ranger with the 2.9 V6, A4LD auto, and 127k miles and it's been idling real rough ever since I got it. It shakes the entire truck intermittently, the idle walks a bit, it surges sometimes, it gets 7-10 MPG city, smokes a ton of raw gas. When I first got it about a year ago, still idled rough as it does now, but it started up instantly. Then it started sputtering on startup and struggled a bit. Just a day ago it took 3 long cranks to start it (was trying to run but wasn't running fast enough to let off key) and once it finally ran, I had to mash the gas to get it to stay running. The computer seems to adjust for that a bit over 30 seconds or so but still runs like garbage. It seems to run fine when actually driving, but I haven't tried to drive it since it started doing the REALLY rough startup thing.
To start off, the previous owner replaced the IAC valve and also the coil, but I'm not sure how long ago that was. Also, here's a bunch of videos on how it runs: https://www.youtube.com/...q8X-_1-SasBBq2arILTo
Things I've replaced/done that have had no effect:-
MAP Sensor -
Oxygen Sensor + Connector (The original connector was half melted so I replaced that too. I swear I put the wiring exactly the same as it originally was and it's only 3 wires so there's no way I messed that up) -
Fuel Pressure Regulator -
Coolant Temp Sensor -
Gaskets in places where I saw a vacuum leak (Lower intake manifold gasket, valve cover breather gasket, PCV valve gasket) PCV valve is good still btw -
Distributor Cap -
Replaced Any cracked/hard rubber lines -
All spark plugs -
Cleaned all fuel injectors with carb cleaner (They seemed to all spray a consistent pattern, can't flow check them though)
Things I've done/replaced that had some effect:-
Setting timing to 12 degrees BTDC helped
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Changing ECU (Original had some corrosion) seemed to intermittently cleared up idle and misfires for a bit then went back to running rough at idle all the time
Things I've checked:-
Checked for ATF in trans modulator vacuum line (None there) -
Checked coolant temp sensor even though brand new (tested good) -
IAC Valve read a bit weird (Voltage climbing slowly when taking off a vacuum line, voltage creeping up at idle when RPM isn't changing, not responding to choking the air supply) But it still holds the truck at 1750 or so for maybe 5-10 seconds on cold start so it seems to be doing it's job, but not sure on it. -
Fuel Pressure, I suspected a leaky injector maybe but the pressure barely changes after turning off. After it had sat for a day, I turned the key to prime the fuel pump and I only got a couple PSI. Every time I turned the key off and then back to the start position, I gained a few PSI. After I started it, it idled at 32 PSI, then jumped to 33 PSI right when I turned it off. It went down to 31.5 PSI after sitting for 2 mins, then 31 PSI after sitting for 10 mins.After it had been run once, turning the key to the start position jumps the pressure to 41 psi quickly, then it falls to 39 PSI after a couple mins.
I'm still most likely going to take the injectors out, turn the key to the start position let the fuel pump pressurize the system, then see if any of them leak at all, but I don't have a ton of time this week though.-
Cyl 1: Between 135/140 -
Cyl 2: 140 -
Cyl 3: 145 -
Cyl 4: 135 -
Cyl 5: Between 145/150 -
Cyl 6: 145
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Dollar bill test (Google it if you don't know): Bill didn't get sucked in at all which means no burnt exhaust valve -
Spark plug gap: I checked one plug which was about 0.035". They're NGK TR5GP's
(This post was edited by kxri318 on Apr 30, 2023, 8:59 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Apr 30, 2023, 10:08 PM
Post #2 of 22
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Re: Seemingly Impossible To Fix Rough/Rich Running Problems
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Good show on this old a truck! You seem to have been or planning the right moves I can only suggest be careful to not over replace parts the new is probably seriously high defect rate cloned junk EVEN this old.
With any cause of over fueling check oil for gas or being too full is deadly both cy. wash and over full will self destruct this show.
Melted a O2 sensor already - that's HOT!
Carry on hit us/me up on specific item or detail at a time you are clearly informed on this thing I am and not just that Mazda probably made that engine in whole only input of a Ford was specifications and owned a controlling # of shared to own or be in bed for many years.
Not the point it/the era was a curse or wild luck better in hindsight for a truck most would work with not keep this long needs some history perhaps the second time around IDK it's in front of you.
Last - the dollar bill test :-) love it. Used a rag, same idea for pre-purchase inspections best at low idle speed so you see the difference by cylinder firing or different - no tools required then cancel them one at a time till the test shows which one!
Good luck if you get this injector test done show results again don't let it kill itself over too much fuel get right on this till found exactly,
Tom
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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May 1, 2023, 3:41 AM
Post #3 of 22
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Re: Seemingly Impossible To Fix Rough/Rich Running Problems
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Seems like you have been pretty thorough.
I wouldn't waste my time pulling out injectors. Your fuel pressure leakdown test pretty much rules a leaky injector out.
One thing you never mentioned was testing for a plugged cat or the IAT. You can use vacuum to test the cat and if you have any kind of scan tool that reads data you can test the IAT by comparing the temps between the ECT and IAT when dead cold/engine off. The temps should match within a degree or two.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
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May 1, 2023, 4:33 AM
Post #4 of 22
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Re: Seemingly Impossible To Fix Rough/Rich Running Problems
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Look at all the plugs so far just #1 - right? One may show evidence either black carbon or still wet are fast to dry to look at fuel soaked can route spark such that it doesn't spark. Swap test or scan whatever is available to you best.
OMG a plain vacuum, handheld gauge also pump is handy for raw basic tests - things that use vacuum converted to electrical by that force.
Again - wildly over fueled at cylinder is really hard on most find it as it's also killing or late converter spent dealing with it?
Good luck - neat trucks for the time and useful now,
Tom
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kxri318
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May 1, 2023, 7:56 AM
Post #5 of 22
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Re: Seemingly Impossible To Fix Rough/Rich Running Problems
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Sorry, I should've mentioned the o2 sensor connector melted because it touched the exhaust somehow. It didn't just melt on it's own.
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kxri318
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May 1, 2023, 8:07 AM
Post #6 of 22
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Re: Seemingly Impossible To Fix Rough/Rich Running Problems
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The cat has been long gone before I got it. Not sure if it burned all its insides out or the old owners hallowed it out. Only figured that out when I went to go remove it lol. Forgot to mention the IAT is brand new too. It's too old to use a scan tool to see temps though, OBD1. Figured I would just go and test the injectors anyway because I'm pretty out of ideas.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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May 1, 2023, 8:20 AM
Post #7 of 22
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Re: Seemingly Impossible To Fix Rough/Rich Running Problems
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OK, converter just needs front O2 sensor, no rear and must have little to no restriction to flow. It is dead or that much fuel could make rear of it glow using this as it is.
Old as dirt, so is this thing the plugs if easy enough tell which one or if more look the same but not all, WHY?
Vehicle or not parts for things I'm finding insane defect %s out there this old or price the cloned stuff isn't always so great. If "parts tossing" and no change and sure it's the new part.
Problem is tossing 2,3,4 items all at once with no luck can't trust all of them so best one at a time if you can and time to. DIY can win having the time most shops couldn't spend that much time or FREE for what doesn't work.
Your good, can tell with observations so far keep going nail this compression being close enough to equal for me says it's not dead yet,
Tom
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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May 1, 2023, 8:32 AM
Post #8 of 22
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It's going to take using a scan tool to read all the sensor data and see what stands out.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Sidom
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May 1, 2023, 10:52 AM
Post #9 of 22
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Re: Seemingly Impossible To Fix Rough/Rich Running Problems
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Ah yes, a Ford OBD I EEC VI system. I saw this post last night and thought I must be having a nightmare but since I wasn't screaming and drenched in sweat, I knew this must be real. 
As HT has already said, at some point you are going to need a scan tool to look at a data stream.
It looks like you have done a pretty good job so far. I've always said that with any running problem, its always a good idea to take care of any overdue maintenance to see if that helps. Some of the other stuff I guess wasn't a bad idea.
One thing you may want to look at is the purge valve for the evap system. When those rupture a diaphram they can send raw gas into the system causing problems like what you are describing. It's been ages, but I believe its back there on the canister? But you can pull the hose off of the intake to see if there is any raw gas in it.
Also I'm assuming you know about the spout connector and disconnected it before you adjusted the timing?
This problem is a bit unique. Usually I'll tell people to do what they can but at some point before throwing too much money away in replacing parts to take it in a get it diagnosed BUT this is an OBD I system and a Ford system at that.
Now adays not to many techs are familiar with OBD I systems, so you would need to find a shop that can diagnose and repair those systems and they are becoming fewer and fewer the more that us old farts are going out to pasture.
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Double J
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May 1, 2023, 11:01 AM
Post #10 of 22
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One thing I didn't see you mention ,thought I'd toss it in
Any slow loss of coolant?
Have you checked for coolant leaking into a cylinder or cylinder(s) after sitting?
I would get a pressure tester and a boroscope, put the system under pressure over night, pull the plugs and on a cold engine, look into the cylinders for coolant. May not even need the pressure tester if its this bad.
That may explain the super rough cold start running and clearing out after 30 seconds or so.
One of your videos shows excessive exhaust white smoke , Is that on start up?
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kxri318
Novice
May 2, 2023, 12:05 PM
Post #11 of 22
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Re: Seemingly Impossible To Fix Rough/Rich Running Problems
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Just tried to scan it. I could not get any codes at all. I selected test mode on my scanner, heard some stuff clicking around in the truck like it was entering test mode, but my scanner never seemed to actually start the test. I used this same scanner a while back and was able to scan a EGR Pressure feedback code one time then never again. I don't understand why it said that because all EGR stuff is brand new. Never got that code or any code again.
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kxri318
Novice
May 2, 2023, 12:10 PM
Post #12 of 22
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Re: Seemingly Impossible To Fix Rough/Rich Running Problems
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Last time I checked the plugs, they were all slightly sooted but the driver side had more soot than the other. I checked that before it started running undrivably bad a couple days ago. I can check them again sometime soon but am a bit busy this week so I'll see when I can squeeze that in
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Hammer Time
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May 2, 2023, 12:14 PM
Post #13 of 22
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Re: Seemingly Impossible To Fix Rough/Rich Running Problems
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I don't know what you are using for a scanner but regular OBD2 stuff won't work here.
He didn't tell you to look for codes although if there are any we need to know that. There are 2 different test for codes on that vehicle KOER and KOEO. Many of them don't store memory and are tested live.
There is a way to pull flash codes. You can look for that on youtube.
What you are looking for is data stream and on those old OBD1 vehicles you need the right equipment if the vehicle is even equipped with live data.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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kxri318
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May 2, 2023, 12:22 PM
Post #14 of 22
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Re: Seemingly Impossible To Fix Rough/Rich Running Problems
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I couldn't find any purge valve nor ever remember seeing one. The line goes straight from the charcoal canister to the throttle body.
Also, I did disconnect the spout before setting timing.
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kxri318
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May 2, 2023, 12:33 PM
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I have a slow loss of coolant but I just found out my upper rad hose was leaking cause I didn't tighten it enough. Never had coolant leak issues before I started messing with the upper rad hose. (Had to put a flex hose in cause I used a Explorer 4.0 radiator)
Plugs are slightly sooted because of the rich running but I'd assume that any coolant getting in would wash that soot away.
The smoke was right after startup on idle. The smoke there was a bit extreme because it was only 38 or so out and you could see your breath, but it's still more smoke than I feel like it should be.
Also, it's dumping so much fuel into the cylinders that it floods itself after trying to crank it 2-3 times.
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Tom Greenleaf
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May 2, 2023, 1:43 PM
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Re: Seemingly Impossible To Fix Rough/Rich Running Problems
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Added to this: Found clamp loose or too loose for cooling system hose. OE should have been full circle + many self-tightening as new hose finds it way to stable.
Never done is re-torquing hose clamps, just enough with common replacement like you can self feed one end into other around need re-torque job or left way too tight for the hose.
That's a source of trouble is lack of pressure in cooling systems old as this more when newer coolant boils much lower temp absent of pressure then air allows for hot spots - results in warpage or uneven expansion over gaskets. Even this vintage needs to hold pressure from just expansion/temp as it increases if lost underway voila - damage can happen even to conventional layout of engine this should be.
Pressure check it isn't going to hold (done cold for safety) it might be too fast to build pressure also is guessing how long from start up to see it or feel hose for it?
That and adding any coolant is the clue of source problem to solve or this will happen again alone isn't the problem.
IDK yet what it took out or how to find and see it this thread is and has covered a lot. Codes for OBD1 are unlikely to help find the source so far suggests gasket integrity of anything sealing coolant hence other adjustments off or fooled perhaps permanently cooked.
Visual looking for where as fuel dumping choose one side I'm just thinking for now bc evap system shouldn't choose sides? IDK, where does the hose go to on intake carrying vapors from canister? Should be even not one side I didn't design it,
Tom
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kxri318
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May 5, 2023, 11:05 AM
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Just checked the vacuum diagram sticker on the truck and no evap purge valve is listed. The diagram shows the line going straight from the canister to the throttle body. I also checked all of the vacuum lines and they're routed how they should be.
Here's a picture of it: http://autoforums.carjunky.com/photos/pic/7122bYvZ/2023.jpg
The injectors are definitely leaking, but it seems like BARELY leaking. When I jump the fuel pump with the injectors not even plugged into the wiring harness, I can see a tiny bit of fuel coming out of the nozzle. Not sure if this amount is normal, but it doesn't seem like enough to cause the severity of my problems. My fuel pump seemed to be making some weird noises too. The sounds are closer towards the front end.
Here's a picture of an injector after wiping it dry then turning on the fuel pump for maybe 7 seconds: http://autoforums.carjunky.com/photos/pic/7122bYvZ/2034.jpg
(This post was edited by kxri318 on May 5, 2023, 11:06 AM)
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Hammer Time
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May 5, 2023, 11:25 AM
Post #19 of 22
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Re: Seemingly Impossible To Fix Rough/Rich Running Problems
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I find it hard to believe that there is no purge control at all on that vehicle.
Factory service manual shows possibility of either type of valve, electric or vacuum.
With direct vacuum connected to the canister it will suck raw fumes from the fuel tank all the time. It would never meet emission requirements that way.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Sidom
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May 5, 2023, 12:06 PM
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Re: Seemingly Impossible To Fix Rough/Rich Running Problems
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The charcoal canister is an emission device, for storage for hydrocarbons from the fuel system. If a system has a canister, it has to have a way to purge the hydrocarbons from the canister. As stated the purge valve is probably on the canister itself in the back.
Injectors aren't supposed to leak period. Any amount of leakage under pressure With no pulse width isn't normal. So you need to look at that little bit closer, You may be on the right track there.
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kxri318
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May 16, 2023, 12:04 PM
Post #21 of 22
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Re: Seemingly Impossible To Fix Rough/Rich Running Problems
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New injectors did absolutely nothing, maybe even made it run worse. I can't tell cause it runs so bad already. Also had to replace the battery because I accidentally left the key on overnight after testing the injectors and the battery wouldn't charge anymore.
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Hammer Time
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May 16, 2023, 12:53 PM
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I told you 19 posts ago that there was nothing wrong with your injectors.
You ask professional technicians for advice and then you ignore it.
You'll probably ignore this too but check to see if your 5v reference is steady at one of the sensors on the orange/white wire.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on May 16, 2023, 1:02 PM)
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