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crewf16
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Dec 2, 2012, 2:29 PM
Post #1 of 38
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98 Ram No Power to Coil
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I have a 98 Ram 1500 Sport 318 with 185,000 Miles. It has a distributor ignition and has not been tuned up for quite a while. For the past couple of days it would not come off of high idle. My wife took it to the store and she said that it just shut down and would not restart. She also said it was hissing. There was no power at the coil so I changed it. No help. Then I checked the wires going into the coil (key on and cranking) no power here. I also checked to be sure the cam was turning and it is. I also checked the fuses and ignition relays in the box.
Please Help.
Thanks,
Ron
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 2, 2012, 4:37 PM
Post #2 of 38
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Re: 98 Ram No Power to Coil
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All "crank, no start" conditions are approached in the same way. Every engine requires certain functions to be able to run. Some of these functions rely on specific components to work and some components are part of more than one function so it is important to see the whole picture to be able to conclude anything about what may have failed. Also, these functions can ONLY be tested during the failure. Any other time and they will simply test good because the problem isn't present at the moment.
If you approach this in any other way, you are merely guessing and that only serves to replace unnecessary parts and wastes money.
Every engine requires spark, fuel and compression to run. That's what we have to look for.
These are the basics that need to be tested and will give us the info required to isolate a cause.
1) Test for spark at the plug end of the wire using a spark tester. If none found, check for power supply on the + terminal of the coil with the key on.
2) Test for injector pulse using a small bulb called a noid light. If none found, check for power supply at one side of the injector with the key on.
3) Use a fuel pressure gauge to test for correct fuel pressure, also noticing if the pressure holds when key is shut off.
Once you have determined which of these functions has dropped out,
you will know which system is having the problem.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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crewf16
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Dec 2, 2012, 5:36 PM
Post #3 of 38
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Re: 98 Ram No Power to Coil
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As you can see by my post there is no power at the coil. Maybe I did not make myself clear enough. There is no power at the positive side going in and nothing coming out to the distributor. No power to the ignition. I was wondering if the Cam Position pickup in the Distributor could be a contributing cause?
Thanks for any help.
Ron
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 2, 2012, 5:38 PM
Post #4 of 38
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Re: 98 Ram No Power to Coil
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If you want some help, then you are going to have to follow our lead. I didn't miss anything. There isn't supposed to be power there when the key is left on.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 3, 2012, 5:50 AM
Post #6 of 38
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Re: 98 Ram No Power to Coil
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OK, never mind. Do it your way. What do we know............................
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 3, 2012, 6:36 AM
Post #7 of 38
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Re: 98 Ram No Power to Coil
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Ron - Won't cost a thing to try for a '98, dist., "hall effect CMP" enough miles, with no pulse for spark. Take the dist. cap off and look. Could be dirty in there. Just blow it out carefully with compressed air and see if you regain spark. If not it's inconclusive. If it works find the source of excessive dirt which may not be normal. Just a cheap try to see if that simple,
T
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 3, 2012, 7:29 AM
Post #8 of 38
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Re: 98 Ram No Power to Coil
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We don't know this car has no spark. We don't know if it has injector pulse either. Hell, we don't even know if it has fuel pressure. The "know it all" hasn't even tested for spark. He doesn't realize that the coil only powers for 2 seconds but he knows better so good luck to him.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 3, 2012, 8:30 AM
Post #11 of 38
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Re: 98 Ram No Power to Coil
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Ron - You have to take this one step at a time just like ever to find out what isn't happening. I'm not going to search the web but there was no carb for this in '98 on any engine. MFI for all meaning 8 fuel injectors vs a TBI which looks a bit like a carb at a glance.
Injectors any which way need a pulse and proper pressure all on time. It's computer controlled so only going to spit fuel or spark for a grace period for start up. If controls don't sense that it is running or engine turning it would be designed to shut off the show to prevent it from blowing up.
One by one find out what is missing. Plain power at the coil by the time you get there if w just a test light may and probably is inconclusive. If this engine has been altered (saw a kit out there) to Throttle Body Injection (TBI) info will be scarce,
T
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crewf16
User
Dec 3, 2012, 9:05 AM
Post #12 of 38
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Re: 98 Ram No Power to Coil
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Tom: I understand that a throttle Body operates similar to injectors and is computer controlled. I think what you are saying is that if the system senses no fuel flow it will shut down the ignition? Reading your post again I am certain this engine is a TBI. No Injectors. I grew up in a service station and have done all of my own work for years. I woked as a Mechanic and HD Recovery and Crane Operator years back. This one just has me stumped.
Thanks,
Ron
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 3, 2012, 10:13 AM
Post #14 of 38
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Re: 98 Ram No Power to Coil
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Ron - Site is not a boxing match so let's let that go. The trouble is this is still and about all are an "internal combustion engine" that uses the power of fuel to turn a motor to do whatever you want it to do........ run a generator, water pump, crane mow your lawn or whatever. That is where the common ground ends.
This means with computer controls it is able to deliver exact amounts of fuel and spark on exact time via assorted sensors. By nature of an electric fuel pump some failsafes have to be used or vehicles would just dump out a tankful all over hot engines in collisions or any failures as a default.
Again - see at a spark plug if there's spark and for now forget how it got there. If spark you would next see if it lacked fuel delivery. That you could just spray some carb cleaner, starting fluid into throttle body and if it reacted like it would run the problem is fuel. Several reasons for either or both to cut out possible then you need to be able to diagnose what which will require more equipment and tools than you probably have to isolate it to which one if just one thing. The stopper is some of that equipment is so expensive for a one time use it wouldn't be worth it if basic tests have at least narrowed it down.
Get it diagnosed and decide if you want to take it on or not. It's that or too common people just begin throwing everything in sight out with hopes of stumbling onto the reason which you may not find that way anyway and spend a fortune on things you didn't need.
Your experience helps so now let that guide you to needing some more help when basics don't check out - none of which are ruled out yet with this,
T
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crewf16
User
Dec 3, 2012, 10:34 AM
Post #15 of 38
(5482 views)
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Re: 98 Ram No Power to Coil
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Thanks Tom. I brought Starting Fluid with me but I was working in a WAl-Mart parking lot and forgot all about it. I am having it towed tonight and will get back to it in a few days. I appreciate your patience.
Ron
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crewf16
User
Dec 20, 2012, 5:27 AM
Post #16 of 38
(5390 views)
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Re: 98 Ram No Power to Coil
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Tom: Ifyou are still there, I swapped out all of the parts, checked for fuel pressure at the valve stem and there is plenty (I do not have a gauge), and tried to start with starting fluid to no avail.
Thanks for any help.
Ron
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Dec 20, 2012, 7:40 AM
Post #17 of 38
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Re: 98 Ram No Power to Coil
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Long read already so sorry if I missed something. The starting fluid test is pretty good even if you were out of fuel it should react if it had spark on time with adequate compression.
There are so many things that can cause no spark this is already a parts toss vs getting a code reading again if need be which just might show why spark is unavailable.
There's a pick up coil under distributor cap. It's an old Mopar concept of magnetically sensing the distributor shaft turning and can then send that signal on to an ICM to allow the show to go on and along with other assorted maybe items will allow it to spark.
This is something printed about those and the effect.........
Pick-up coil generates a voltage that is sent to the ICM (Ignition Control Module) for proper ignition firing When not replaced, vehicle may experience no start, hard start, intermittent engine shut down, misfire, engine cut out, excessive fuel consumption, CEL illumination and/or failed emission test Designed to meet or exceed OE specifications in form, fit and function Global coverage for import and/or domestic applications
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Quite apparently a failed one would set a code. I have no clue how to test one of these. Just two wires sensing a wheel with 8 metal cut outs that pass thru a magnetic non touching pair of sensing things that know distributor is turning and when to send signal for a spark called the "Hall Effect" for this.
If the dang distributor shaft isn't spinning for any reason you wouldn't get any spark if all else was well. At some point of tossing parts as a method you end up not trusting that new ones were any good so lack of diagnostics plain costs too much unless unbelievable lucky.
Vehicles are plain made not to run if they sense a failure of certain things. I don't know if this engine will shut down spark and or fuel delivery depending on what. Some will mess up with a silly oil pressure switch but don't think this one. Is there a reset somewhere that I don't know of? Maybe.
It's costing you too much money and time IMO. Some items replaced are OK maintenance if they don't work. Most are just a waste.
It cost a shop and tech(s) unreal money to have the experience and equipment never mind the place to diagnose out problems quickly and even then some take a while.
If you don't even want to own a fuel pressure tester you wouldn't like the cost of all the other things needed. At some point the most cost effective thing is to pay for the diagnosis and decide from that if you want to do the fix or let it get done for you.
So what would you like to do?
T
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Dec 20, 2012, 9:58 AM
Post #18 of 38
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Re: 98 Ram No Power to Coil
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This truck doesn't have a pick up coil, nor does it have an ignition control module. Diagnosing this is futile since he refuses to do the required testing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 20, 2012, 10:32 AM
Post #19 of 38
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Re: 98 Ram No Power to Coil
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They do show this stuff at two different parts outlets for this truck? Are they all wrong? Might be.
This one say the whole dist includes these..........
Attributes: # Distributor Pick-ups : Hall Effects Sensor Vacuum Advance Type Used : None Features and Benefits:All Electronic Module Components Are 100% Computer Tested To Ensure Full Functionality.
Automated Test Equipment Verifies Signal Strength, Correct Polarity Of Wire Harness, Air Gap, Crank Reluctor Tooth Size, As Well As Ignition Coil & Pickup Performance
Precise Machining Tolerances Prevent Oil Leakage, Poor Timing, Setting Of The Check Engine Light, & Premature Failure. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ One say the signal does go thru PCM. Thread is going nowhere in a hurry, T
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 20, 2012, 10:54 AM
Post #20 of 38
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Re: 98 Ram No Power to Coil
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Yes, they are wrong.
it uses a crank sensor instead of a pick up coil and the ignition control is done by the PCM
The part in the distributor is a Cam sensor
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Dec 20, 2012, 11:03 AM)
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crewf16
User
Dec 20, 2012, 4:12 PM
Post #21 of 38
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Re: 98 Ram No Power to Coil
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Tom: Unfortunately I think he is correct. I did see this elsewhere. But I also saw that if the cam sensor was bad it could kill the ignition. So it still comes down to swapping parts or towing it in to have it diagnosed.
Thanks,
Ron
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 20, 2012, 4:25 PM
Post #22 of 38
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Re: 98 Ram No Power to Coil
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No, it doesn't. If you weren't so stubborn and listened to people that do this for a living, we would have homed in on what area has the problem but you want to do it your way. Good luck with that.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Dec 20, 2012, 4:27 PM)
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 21, 2012, 9:27 AM
Post #24 of 38
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Re: 98 Ram No Power to Coil
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Hatred? You gotta be kidding. We donate our time here to help people but I have no patience at all for the know it alls that come in here asking for help but will not listen. It quite enough work to walk a novice through troubleshooting but when they want to argue about every step and tell us how something isn't necessary because they already know what the issue is, they just aren't worth the bother.
Fix your own damn car. There are other people that need help and are willing to listen.
OH, and by the way, a noid light costs about $6. Let's see how much you throw away in wasted parts.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Dec 21, 2012, 9:29 AM)
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nickwarner
Veteran
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Dec 21, 2012, 1:17 PM
Post #25 of 38
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Re: 98 Ram No Power to Coil
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Fuel pressure gauge and a noid light are cheaper than unneeded parts. Way cheaper than a tow. Way cheaper than a diagnostic fee. You can throw parts at it and maybe get lucky and fix it. Maybe not. Once you install a new sensor or any other electrical part its non-returnable, so you're stuck with it. Your choice.
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