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95 astro rwd - no spark, unless i didn't check right...
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p377y7h33f
Novice
Sep 7, 2010, 7:48 PM
Post #1 of 11
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95 astro rwd - no spark, unless i didn't check right...
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hi everybody. my first post here. i'll try to give you as much information on my problem as i can in as few words as i can.
i only have the van for a week. it sat still for about 6 months, so it took 3-4 minutes to start the very first time i saw it. over the next couple of days/200 miles/20 starts it began starting instantly, ran solid once warm, and put out 2000 miles in the week after that. so here i am in Massachusetts, 300 miles away from home(NY), parked in a hotel parking lot, shut off the engine and waiting for my reservation e-mail. i decide to open my window for a smoke, so i turn the key to ignition without starting the van and leave it that way for about 10 minutes. once i get the bad news from the hotel, i try to start it again, it cranks and nothing happens. that night i didn't do much.
next day, Labor Day, everything's closed so i venture to open the engine cover. checked all the fuses prior to that, they were all good. first thing i did was check for spark. PLEASE, tell me i did it right. i removed the wire right from the (very old)ignition coil, took a wire connected to an unpainted body area and held it close to the coil contact. cranked it - no spark. should i check at the rotor cap or it doesn't matter??? mind you, the electrical components in the van are all out of wack. speedometer is showing about 3/4 of the actual MPH, voltage meter is at 16v with ignition on, and 18v when running. fuel gauge can't be trusted. half the switches don't work, some are mixed up(rear defrost switch opens the rear door, no power locks and so on...) also, i cannot eliminate the possibility of me pulling out a wire with my foot while using the e-brake. i actually found a loose brown wire coming out from behind the fuse box and connected it to where it seemed to belong - a metal bracket which seems to provide ground.
next day, today, i decided to start replacing stuff. first, new ignition coil - $17 bucks, why the hell not. no change. thick pink wire to the coil has 11.5v(battery starting to give out), skinny short white with a connector is loose, hasn't been used for anything for a while. the skinny red and white from the coil to the ignition control module both have 11.5v. next, i took a walk and got a new ICM(ignition control module). no change. that's when i renewed my AAA membership and towed it to a shop. the guy took a quick look, measured the fuel pressure. it was 45psi, and i know it's lower than it should be, but he said it should be enough to start. then he checked the fuses again - all good. connected his scanner and said there was no communication with the computer. then he closed the shop and left for a week-long vacation.
now it's parked at a closed shop with the battery almost dead, i'm a mile and a half away in a hotel, wasting money, unable to complete my job assignment, looking at another tow, hours of diagnostics, possible rape by the local mechanics tomorrow, fresh out of ideas and no hope of making it back home for my daughter's birthday. the van cost me around $1800 so far and now i don't know if it's worth investing money into it any more.
i'll be able to post some pictures of under the dash area tomorrow, maybe you guys can see something i can't. oh, and i think it's a 95 body, but 94 and older interior. the dashboard is still squarish, and after a thorough search i never found the underhood fuse block i'm supposed to have on a 95. thanks for taking your time to read this. what's my next step?
p.s. don't know how to check for injector pulse. only got a multimeter. all suggestions welcome.
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Sidom
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Sep 7, 2010, 8:57 PM
Post #2 of 11
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Re: 95 astro rwd - no spark, unless i didn't check right...
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True story.....
About 10 years ago my buddy (who is very very thorough, almost to a fault-----important point) get a no start on a Chevy Astro. I walk over there as soon as he got it in and looked at the fuel pressure gauge while an installer cranked..... 45psi.... I said " Dude, looks like you got an easy one.....bad fuel pump" and went back to doing what I was doing.... An hour & 1/2 later he comes over to borrow my vantange. I asked him what he was working on now and he said the Astro...... ???????????
His exact words.... "It's got 45psi, that should be enough to start!!!!!"
These system take a bare bones minimum of 50psi to start...... They will run on less but won't start...... I've seen guys use starting fluid to get them running with weak pumps....
Double check that fuel pressure and see if it will run on starting fluid............
Thx 4 the memories......I forgot about that..........I'll think I'm gonna bring that up tomorrow.... That's one of his "buttons"  
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p377y7h33f
Novice
Sep 7, 2010, 9:31 PM
Post #3 of 11
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Re: 95 astro rwd - no spark, unless i didn't check right...
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thanks dude, i'll try the starting fluid first thing tomorrow. question: what do i open to get to the butterfly? and before i change the fuel pump, should i try changing the filter?
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Sidom
Veteran
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Sep 7, 2010, 9:41 PM
Post #4 of 11
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Re: 95 astro rwd - no spark, unless i didn't check right...
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Just spray it down the tube that connects to the air filter. I would probably use carb clean.....less explosive...
I did miss the part about no communication but if it starts & runs on carb clean then the pcm would good & it was probably just a scanner issue....
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p377y7h33f
Novice
Sep 8, 2010, 10:42 PM
Post #5 of 11
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Re: 95 astro rwd - no spark, unless i didn't check right...
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just an update here...
over the course of 6 hours, 2 cans of starting fluid and replacing electrical parts in the dark, i heard it fire about 3 times. still haven't seen the spark with my own eyes though. is it possible the ether was igniting due to compression without any spark?
anyway, what i changed today was spark plugs, wires, distributor cap, the distributor rotor. a random mechanic showed up by the shop and had my fuel pressure checked again - 35psi. also, he looked behind the crank pulley and said there was no crank sensor on my model, since its an earlier 95, probably a late 94 really. in any case no start on ether, plus no spark - i can't blame it on the fuel pump just yet, right?
if someone could answer my next question, i'd appreciate it.
with power(12.5v) on the pink wire/grey connector to the ignition coil and nothing else but ground, would it spark? if i took a multimeter and measured voltage between ground and coil output for the rotor cap - what should i get with ignition on, and when cranking? what about the resistance of the coil?
and with both black and grey connectors on the coil, if i shorted the red and white that go to the ignition control module - would it spark then?
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Sep 9, 2010, 2:48 AM
Post #6 of 11
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Re: 95 astro rwd - no spark, unless i didn't check right...
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I can tell you one thing. that truck is never going to run on only 35PSI of fuel pressure. That engine requires a minimum of 55PSI to run.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Sidom
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Sep 9, 2010, 10:07 PM
Post #7 of 11
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Re: 95 astro rwd - no spark, unless i didn't check right...
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I just reread your 1st post, correct me if I'm wrong but you took the wire out of the coil (left it in the cap) and put it to ground and check for spark? If this is correct that was backwards. You need to leave the wire in the coil (that's where the spark comes from). To be sure, get an ST 125 spark tester, very cheap at a parts store. With the wire attached to the coil, ST125 in the middle & other end to a good ground,check it at 30k. If no spark wind it down to 10k & then 5k. This way you'll know for sure.
Your pressure is way too low. You can try a fuel filter, but if the filter is so plugged it dropped the pressure that much (very doubtful) then the pump will die very very soon....
Make sure you have spark but if you fuel pressure test is accurate, you have a bad pump, no ifs ands or buts..... Some guys have trouble with this because of the misleading high pressure (not high enough)......
That story I told you is absolutely truth... That tech wasted an hour & 1/2 checking the system after I told him the pump was bad...... He put a pump in & it fired right up.....
I'm not there so I'm not saying there isn't something else going on but if you have 35 lbs pressure...... You have a bad pump or are almost out of gas.......(in which case you just killed your pump)
(This post was edited by Sidom on Sep 9, 2010, 10:09 PM)
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p377y7h33f
Novice
Sep 10, 2010, 10:40 PM
Post #8 of 11
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Re: 95 astro rwd - no spark, unless i didn't check right...
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I just reread your 1st post, correct me if I'm wrong but you took the wire out of the coil (left it in the cap) and put it to ground and check for spark? If this is correct that was backwards. You need to leave the wire in the coil (that's where the spark comes from). To be sure, get an ST 125 spark tester, very cheap at a parts store. With the wire attached to the coil, ST125 in the middle & other end to a good ground,check it at 30k. If no spark wind it down to 10k & then 5k. This way you'll know for sure.
Yes, i took the wire off the cap to check for spark, didnlt use a tester though. From what i understand it'll spark only when the ICM tells it to, and that is brand new. the ICM needs a go ahead from the computer while cranking though, so i'm gonna try to reground it directly next, since the thermostat housing is looking quite nasty and pretty hard to get to.
Your pressure is way too low. You can try a fuel filter, but if the filter is so plugged it dropped the pressure that much (very doubtful) then the pump will die very very soon....
i'll get to the fuel delivery as soon as i get a spark, bro. not sure who told me this, but supposedly low voltage could be responsible for lowered pressure.
Make sure you have spark but if you fuel pressure test is accurate, you have a bad pump, no ifs ands or buts..... Some guys have trouble with this because of the misleading high pressure (not high enough)......
That story I told you is absolutely truth... That tech wasted an hour & 1/2 checking the system after I told him the pump was bad...... He put a pump in & it fired right up.....
I'm not there so I'm not saying there isn't something else going on but if you have 35 lbs pressure...... You have a bad pump or are almost out of gas.......(in which case you just killed your pump)
that's the thing - i have 3/4 tank, so changing the fuel pump wouldn't be the most pleasant thing to try right now.
if you could please confirm the conditions under which i would get the coil to spark, please...
is key turned to ignition enough or do i have to be cranking it?
is power on the pink wire plus proper coil ground enough to produce spark, or does the ICM have to communicate a pulse to the coil? could the pulse be simulated? maybe a simple short of the red and white?
and another thing: the ICM has 2 pins on the backside that connect to a green and a yellow wires on the distributor. could a messed up rotor or any distributor part stop the coil from sparking?
thanks for your patience.
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Sidom
Veteran
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Sep 10, 2010, 11:12 PM
Post #9 of 11
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Re: 95 astro rwd - no spark, unless i didn't check right...
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You know, one of the strange things in the automotive world..... I couldn't tell you how many bad fuel pumps (on all different makes) I've seen go bad right after the customer FILLED up the tank.... It's weird......
The thing that has me a little puzzled is you did say you got it to kick a few times with ether. It needs some kind of ign source, compression won't do it & unless you have some very serious carbon problems going on....
You can check the power wire to the coil positive wire & with the KOEO (key on engine off) you should have 12v. You can probe the negative side and when the engine is cranked the light should pulse. This would be on indication the module is working. At this point I'm not real comfortable that you have a no spark condition. An spark tester really makes it easy. It has an end to attach to a plug or coil wire and the other end has a clamp for a good ground. Since these can burn holes in rotors, you would want to check the coil wire. Disconnect the coil wire from the cap (leaving it attached to the coil), attach it to the tester & ground it, then crank the engine over.
The green & yellow wires are from the pickup coil. If you have a multimeter I believe the specs are around 1500 ohms.....
And the bad news.....Once again.....If you have 35 lbs fuel pressure, you have a bad pump, no getting around that.......You can try & pounding on the tank with a block wood, but this trick usually only works on pumps with dead shorts that aren't working at all....
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p377y7h33f
Novice
Sep 20, 2010, 8:47 PM
Post #10 of 11
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Re: 95 astro rwd - no spark, unless i didn't check right...
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it was the pickup coil. what sucks is that i bought the ignition control module twice. first - separately, and the as part of the distributor. runs good now though. i basically performed a tune up it needed trying to start the damn thing...
and as far as fuel pressure, a mechanic told me that since there no engine revolution data sent to the computer with a bad pickup coil - it won't pump it up to 60 psi.
thanks for all the help guys.
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Sidom
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Sep 20, 2010, 9:04 PM
Post #11 of 11
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Re: 95 astro rwd - no spark, unless i didn't check right...
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Hey glad to hear you got it running....... Thx 4 coming back & letting us know what fixed it.....
You may want to keep a close eye on that pump. I'm guessing the gauge might have been leaking on not accurate. This pump should go to 60 psi with just the key on & no cranking, but that doesn't matter now cuz you're back on the road.....
Good job...
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