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2004 Mitsubishi Lancer Misfire
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Marco90
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Jun 20, 2016, 11:52 PM
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2004 Mitsubishi Lancer Misfire
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Hello,
I have a Mitsubishi Lancer which occasionally has misfires in cilinder 3, fault code P0303.
The engine starts running very rough for 10 to 20 seconds and then it starts running fine like nothing is wrong.
I've replaced the sparkplugs, spark plug wires and igintion coils, but this did not fix the problem.
Info about the car:
2004
Mitsubishi
Lancer (station)
2.0L 135bhp
Engine type: 4G63 DOHC
267.000 km
Fuel system: LPG
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jun 21, 2016, 12:52 AM
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Re: 2004 Mitsubishi Lancer Misfire
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Eeek - LPG fuel. OK just no direct info specific to me on it.
If plugs, wires and coils make not difference tell me/us just how fuel is delivered - one cyl at a time or all from one source?
That or just check compression of that cylinder with a couple others - is it close to others with no problem?
T
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Marco90
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Jun 21, 2016, 1:00 AM
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Re: 2004 Mitsubishi Lancer Misfire
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Fuel is deliverd individually to each cilinder (there are 4 LPG injectors).
Switching to gasoline on when the engine is misfiring doesn't take away the problem. It will still go on for about the same time before returning to normal again.
This made me think that it isn't a fuel problem.
I will check compression as soon as possible, will most likely be this weekend. Would problems inside the cilinders not occur more constantly?
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jun 21, 2016, 1:53 AM
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Re: 2004 Mitsubishi Lancer Misfire
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I have to resort to the most basic rules for an internal combustion engine operation for a 4 stroke fuel burning engine for this.
It still needs to compress the fuel in its vapor state to be useful. That's why I suggest a compression test comparison with cylinders that do work either fuel now you said. I can't know what set up was put in and alterations or if designed originally no info and zero experience by me personally.
It's lame because they are around for engines for warehouses - the public gas companies will buy up a fleet run on LNG and brag about it. I don't see those vehicles - ever.
It's all fine just need to find out why it's picking on one cylinder and compression would be first on my list in this case.
I actually bet you'll find it lower than it should be then move on to why. Save the rest of checks for your posting results.
Please do a "wet" test as well which means a squirt of oil and test the low or failed cylinder again. If that changes everything it's needed info while checking please so that.
Awaiting results of testing,
Tom
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Hammer Time
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Jun 21, 2016, 2:16 AM
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Re: 2004 Mitsubishi Lancer Misfire
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I doubt a compression problem would be intermittent like this. Check all your wiring connections and wiring harness. Look around for any burnt spots in the harness where it could be shorting. Tug on the wires when this is happening and see if it changes anything.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Hammer Time
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Jun 21, 2016, 2:49 AM
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Re: 2004 Mitsubishi Lancer Misfire
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Yes, that would be correct but you can't rely on the monitors to report it correctly.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jun 21, 2016, 4:43 AM
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Re: 2004 Mitsubishi Lancer Misfire
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? LPG or "gasoline" does this for the first seconds of a cold start - right? Liquid fuel would need to be delivered richer but don't think LPG needs that?
Triggered by spark guess I'd watch spark for the time it does this which doesn't seen too long so be ready right when expected. Compression and spark both must be OK if it runs properly (if really does) in ~20 seconds.
No, I don't know. Just would be ruling things in or out and apparently only so much time to watch for this isn't helping,
T
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Marco90
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Jun 21, 2016, 5:01 AM
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Re: 2004 Mitsubishi Lancer Misfire
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The car always starts on gasoline.
As soon as the engine reaches a certain temperature it switches over to LPG, but I can manually switch between both fuels.
It is impossible to check the spark on the moment that I have this problem, because it randomly occurs. If it was occuring more often I would just remove sparkplug wires one at a time when the problem occured.
I haven't found a way to manually trigger this fault, but maybe it could be something with the wiring. That is something that I will check tonight if it stays dry outside.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jun 21, 2016, 5:24 AM
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Re: 2004 Mitsubishi Lancer Misfire
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Wow - so its design is to always start on gasoline then switch? Fine then now you say random and want to cancel spark to see vs using an in-line spark tester just flashes as current goes thru and would maintain spark doesn't stop it.
There's some risk at just unplugging a wire as the spark as no place to go so much better if you can ground that out so it doesn't seek another item if spark present and harm it - any engine that makes spark for ignition never mind this.
Random changes the game. I thought this would dependably do this for so many seconds. What would be random is now more likely spark but was thinking compression like a valve that was leaking down but wouldn't do that so much once already stable and running maybe just on initial start.
If you wish to cancel a plug without much for tools I guess I need to suggest you shut it off quickly and ground the plug wire.
You could ground a spark tester if you wish to get one and spark would always seek easiest ground.
Other is to mist the parts lightly with tap water and look for stray arcing of spark but you've listed this as happening with both old and new items so don't expect that to help and doesn't always show anything anyway.
The in-line spark tester I'm talking about doesn't stop the spark nor adjustable to test power of a coil just show evidence. That you can also see with an induction timing light now prehistoric but would be useful.
This whole set up is new to me. How an piston engine can run is basics - any fuel requiring a spark and 4 stroke shares crude basics in common,
T
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Marco90
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Jun 22, 2016, 11:09 AM
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Yes, thats how all LPG systems work here in the Netherlands.
The misfiring is occasionally/random.
I see what you mean with the inline spark tester.
I don't know if there is a tester that could show the spark during a drive, but that could be handy. However, I found something else today which could explain the problem.
I found some time today to check the wiring to the ignition coils.
I've move the wires with the engine running and nothing happend, no stuttering.
Then I thought maybe the spark plug wires are not properly connected. I pushed the plug wire from ignition coil on 4 to 1 and it was good.
Next was wire on ignition coil on 2 going to 3. The moment that I tried to push it on I got a shock! I tried again, and again a shock!
So I tried the other wire again and didn't get any shock.
I don't think it should be possible to get a shock when every thing is connected properly.
The connection of this ignition coil and plug wire are very close to the head of the engine. In my opinion this could be the problem (correct me if I'm wrong). That the spark sometimes makes a short on this location (explaining the P0303 misfire on cilinder 3).
Now the question, what part is defect??
The ignition coils are new and so are the spark plug wires and the spark plugs
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jun 22, 2016, 12:44 PM
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Quote you ">>
I don't think it should be possible to get a shock when every thing is connected properly.<<"
-----------------------------------------
I worry about my eyesight and reading you clearly so will ask about that. Is engine running when totally switching wires or they are connected and just pushing a wire on to see if tight while running? If engine off and a shock - that's something else.
Same wire can give you a shock on a different coil while just putting your hand on it? It really shouldn't do that suggesting YOU are an easier way for high voltage spark to go thru you than thru the spark plug.
Wire if moved and only that wire does it really blames the wire/boot itself not other things if all else equal. Could be new or not wires and insulation of high voltage items can be broken or defective.
Again if it's always following just that wire it really has to be the wire.
Hey! That voltage really shouldn't harm you but can be very dangerous. Several concerns only about one funny. If you have any predisposition for heart issues it could be deadly serious. IMO and experience it's the "surprise" factor mostly not so much physical damage to you but avoid it always.
The funny is at least I think (well lived this long and shocked a zillion times) the surprise and hitting your head on an open hood, drop a tool that hits a fan and goes flying always where it will take a day to find it if ever. It's not funny.
There are totally safe ways and could even use one of those light up in-line spark testers held close to a weak spot and grounded with everything of ignition intact would light up without shocking you if as easily as you just said it can do that,
T
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Marco90
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Jun 22, 2016, 11:21 PM
Post #13 of 24
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Re: 2004 Mitsubishi Lancer Misfire
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The wire is connected properly.
Just by touching it you get a shock trough the rubber piece.
I found a picture of the ignition coil setup with wires.
Note: the ignition coil in the middle looks like it is connected to cilinder 3 but this should be flipped over to fit cilinder 2 and the wire should go on 3.
With engine running with everything connected properly:
Touching the part colored with red will give you a shock, touching the blue part doesn't.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jun 23, 2016, 3:54 AM
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That wire and boot by description shouldn't give you a shock on one and not the other so wire is highly the reason for the shock and it misfiring.
This is high voltage low amp power to jump the gap of a spark plug which it should prefer vs you unless somehow YOU are magnetically charged to be the easier path to ground at most the slightest fuzz feel while all hooked up.
It that plug is VERY hard (even new or same results with an old one that worked or swapped and same result) to accept the spark and the power then on to ground of engine block extra verifies it's the wire/boot combo.
Please understand this electricity - all really is seeking the least "resistant" way to ground intended to jump the gap of a spark plug in this case to make spark for ignition - doesn't matter now what fuel, any fuel at all should not jump spark out with any real force. It would be cancelling the spark unseen is not firing that plug to another place or may see it.
I still want you to use all caution getting shocked by this voltage! It's quite startling spark. Enough for some people to literally change a heart beat up to fatal results! Not common for fatal but has that power.
You may have seen emergency human beings when their heart stops emergency measures using electrical pads over person's heart "shock it" to start up again - I'm serious - about the same just targeted to do just that to save a life also could confuse your own body to stop your heart - so it is really a danger to avoid.
**********************************
I'll try to post a picture of the spark tester I was talking about or a link to the picture if possible. Handy tool that is just removable wires at each end to put in line (if room allows it at all) and will flash when spark travels thru it. Looks like this.........
Another try..........
Another similar one...........
Last one not as useful but same basic idea.
Here's the link to images found if nothing shows or pictures expire..........
https://www.google.com/...24.Q7OYFW6Jkhg#imgrc=_
This method you stand back and just watch while even just cranking an engine is enough if spark is present.
All this - you've found your trouble spot. It should be replaced with new again. Abusing these high voltage parts, just tugging on them to remove or problems handling them in manufacture, shipping or by person installing them could cause them to fail.
That tool in $US is listed as low as around $10. Price for EUROs and you location would probably convert to more.
New wires with paperwork intact should be warranted for FREE replacement.
I have to let you decide on how you acquire your own parts, in person at a parts store, on line purchases or what works best for you.
Good luck. That's your problem as best as I can determine from info provided,
Tom
(edited) only the last of three pics I posted shows for me. The link shows an entire assortment of spark testing tools to scroll thru. My view will allow and show where the picture came from - personal, a parts or tool store or anywhere a picture was posted that is allowed - that varies by location also........
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Jun 23, 2016, 4:01 AM)
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Marco90
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Jun 23, 2016, 10:36 AM
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I didn't get shocked for fun, I know that it is a high voltage shock. Next time I will try to spray some water mist over this place, I heard that you can see the shock pass through the water mist.
Already contacted the supplier of the wire and was offered a free replacement. Luckily I kept my old wires. However, these wires also gave the same misfire on cilinder 3.
I'm thinking about replacing the wire from ignition coil on 2 to 3 with the long wire that also goes from 4 to 1, since these cilinders seem to work fine (no fault codes on these cilinders).
There is room to place the additional cable that is on it.
Do you think that this would be a good idea, until I get new wires?
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jun 23, 2016, 10:54 AM
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? Do you have room for the longer wire on the bad shorter one? Use it if you can now. Still get the new one. Said, wires really don't like being mishandled. Do it as anytime an engine isn't running well it's just not good for it.
Water or a mist with a pinch of salt (some) will really conduct a stray spark but still may not see it. I use store bought window cleaner most of the time because it's all around my shop. The idea is except for distilled water most will have some ohm reading thru it of some electrical passage thru water. Definitely aggravates a what I'll call a "carbon trace" of the plastic hard parts like coil towers or where found can pass voltage thru the smallest crack or pencil looking line sometimes you see.
If I read the properly which color wire and you have the old ones hope that was the longer one that was good and room for it?
No great reason to me the same old and new wire were such the likely culprit,
T
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Hammer Time
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Jun 23, 2016, 11:05 AM
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Most likely that coil tower is cracked.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Marco90
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Jun 23, 2016, 11:34 AM
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There is room to place the longer wire, it's not pretty but it fits.
Car starts without any problems.
Just have to drive tomorrow to see if the misfires come up again.
Seeing the spark trough the water mist could indeed be difficult, best chance to see is at night.
I also made a picture of the new ignition wires. The printing on the short wire is almost completely gone. Wires have on the car for only 17 days. Could this also be an indication of some sort?
Picture deleted .............. too large and distorting thread
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Jun 23, 2016, 7:00 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jun 23, 2016, 4:34 PM
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? Are you saying you already put old longer wire on and now fine for now? Sorry if misunderstood something along the way but yes coil tower if a total leak wouldn't change with a wire I would think so if it's acting all better now another new one could be it.
Got lost a bit and thought you had swapped or a new coil that didn't change the problem already - just me and didn't catch that if so.
If no shock now and running properly now your call on just tossing the coil if any suspicions left at all about it.
It's given you enough headaches and for the fix. As said, not running well isn't good for the engine or assorted emission controls down and out exhaust or the engine itself.
Sounds at least good so far - hope this will end it.
Refresh - easy handling plug wires and boots. Don't bend plug wire or pull on wire - pull on boots properly which is frequently with tools that do that with less chance of harm,
Tom
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Marco90
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Jun 23, 2016, 10:43 PM
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I changed the short wire with the long wire yesterday evening and didn't have time to take it for a drive.
I've driven for 40km now and haven't had the problem. However, still to early to conclude if the problem is fixed now.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jun 24, 2016, 2:04 AM
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OK - Waiting but sounding good. Pic removed (got the idea anyway) pls go easy if too wide, whole thread goes too wide to read.
Pics don't always behave for me that I get off the web and could use showing some tools that really help for all this stuff. Spark plug boots for either ends can really stick and worries me that in so many the tight spaces, heat and they last longer and longer they'll just not tolerate being pulled on for checks - never liked that.
Just know - search out images of spark plug wire and boot tools. There are actually tons of assorted things. Rubber coated large tweezers things, a curled hook such that you are only pulling on boots not wire and all the assortment that protects a spark plug.
This stuff breaks easily just handling as said already. It very well could be YOU who caused this along the way and not blaming you just know stuff it there to avoid the damage. Best is never having to touch anything but impossible over time.
Testers for evidence of spark without removing anything - cool stuff if taking care of assorted things. Not all are costly at all and some are and mandatory. Just know what exists.
When you are sure 100% ready to toss the old parts for your own info, cut and use wire strippers on a plug wire. It's almost never a solid wire. Many like a carbon soaked string. You'll see that. That stuff can't be bent or moved around new and worse used is fragile. Just know that and tools to help,
Tom
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Marco90
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Sep 7, 2016, 4:31 AM
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Re: 2004 Mitsubishi Lancer Misfire
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Unfortunately the problem is still not fixed :(
But, I found out when the problem is triggered and how I can avoid it.
The problem only occurs when driving in gear (it's a manual) and I release the throttle. So the car is slowing down by itself (or while using the brake).
Sometimes when I start pushing the throttle the misfire problem will occur. The problem does not occur as long as I keep my foot on the throttle (only a little bit) to slow down, or push the clutch and then hit the brakes when I want to slow down.
The chance of the problem occuring is high when going up hill or down hill with the car in gear and not pushing the gas or clutch. As soon as I want to go faster again it starts misfiring.
It seems to me that when I release the throttle the computer gets a signal and stops injecting fuel. It looks like it doesn't get a good signal to start injecting fuel again when I press the gas pedal. This is the same for gasoline and LPG.
Does someone know if this could be sensor related or something ECU related?
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Tom Greenleaf
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Sep 7, 2016, 5:21 AM
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Just re-read quickly. It's been too long to not have fixed this so other issues now possible.
I don't care if two new wire sets both fail but back when you said you got a shock just touching one but not another - there's no need to look too much more if that keeps doing that then the wire isn't right or the plug it would normally send a spark to just doesn't except the spark by location somehow or design flaw?
Codes and when this happens if still getting shocked there will be all over the place and suppose could have harmed how it runs but not getting shocked by a dumb wire? That makes no sense.
I say you've waited too long now and even if that is solved need to look for what else it harmed if at all or really harmed that cylinder now. Unknown - start over with checks again for that dang stray spark as if you don't solve that this will never end,
T
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