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1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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gwar
User
Oct 15, 2011, 4:09 PM
Post #1 of 26
(16003 views)
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1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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1995
Oldsmobile
88 LSS
3.8L
122,000mi
Was driving down the freeway when all of a sudden I lost power and the check engine light came on. Was able to make it back home ok, but it died once at a stop sign.
It ran very rough and sluggish, at idle or under power.
I tried getting codes read at Autozone, but they said my car isn't compatible.
Looking more into OBD1 and 2, I've found my car has the OBD2 connector, but is a OBD1 computer.
I bought a scanner (make and model eludes me at the moment, I can update later) and after some "adapting" (long story) I was able to get it to read the obd1 codes from the computer.
It gave me the following DTC #'s: 28, 25, 24, 23, 22, 38, 37, 36, 35, 34, 33, 32, 31, 46, 39, 55, 54, 52.
I have no idea what to do now. Some of these codes are conflicting (like mass airflow high and mass airflow low).
I am also unable to clear the codes. According to the scanner, it says I have to follow the service manual procedures when I press the clear button.
I've unhooked the battery, but the codes come right back after hooking it back up.
It also seems to be getting worse. A few days after I got it home, I was able to start it again, but it would still run very rough. The other day though, it would barely keep running at all. Now it won't even start, just cranks.
When I put the key to on, I can hear the fuel pump pressure up like normal, then it stops.
I did test the throttle position sensor with a multimeter and got good results with a smooth resistance curve across the movement.
I've never had much experience with computer cars. Most cars I've worked on are 80's and older.
Hope someone can help.
Thank you,
Loren
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Sidom
Veteran
/ Moderator
Oct 15, 2011, 5:16 PM
Post #2 of 26
(15974 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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Are you sure on the year of this?
This was right in the transistion between OBD I & II. The federal 95s had hybrid design but no matter...
With all those codes it sounds like your PCM may be bad, throwing that many codes...
With the older ones you always start with the 5x codes 1st, those are PCM codes and need to be dealt with 1st....
Obviously you would want to check the powers & grounds 1st, a bad PCM ground could also cause those problems....
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gwar
User
Oct 18, 2011, 10:31 PM
Post #3 of 26
(15940 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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Yup it's a 95. Do you think my scanner isn't getting the right codes? It is supposed to read ODB I & II but I had to make a special adaption to get it to read the Olds.
Where would I look for a PCM ground? The computer box itself is up under the dash by passenger feet area. It's housed in an aluminum shell, but has no real ground wire attached to it, just 3 plugs with many wires each.
I did clean the battery and body ground near the battery. No help.
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Sidom
Veteran
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Oct 19, 2011, 4:25 PM
Post #4 of 26
(15932 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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The grounds & power wires are part of those many wires .....
The biggest problem is I don't know how reliable that adaptor is. With any no start you would obvious want to see what you lost, spark or fuel an go from there. HammerTime has a good no start flow chart at the top of one of these forums I believe, that would be a good place to start.
But if the problem leads back to any thing PCM relate, any data is really suspect.
Get the chart & find out what your missing, if it isn't anything simple you may want to consider taking it in
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 19, 2011, 5:06 PM
Post #5 of 26
(15925 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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I'd erase all those codes and then see which ones come back.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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gwar
User
Oct 23, 2011, 9:55 PM
Post #6 of 26
(15883 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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In fact I did try just that. Tried erasing with the scan tool, but it says to "follow the service manual to erase codes for my application".
I tried removing fuse and disconnecting battery....overnight even, but the codes are either still there, or regenerated as soon as I turn the key on and scan again.
I've also checked fuel pressure. It was reading about 47 psi.
I did get spark from a spark plug (with the ground pin bent up) Reading online, someone said that you need to use an HEI spark tester not just a spark plug or you may get unreliable results. This is the reason for bending the pin up to make the largest gap possible. When this test is good, it should indicate that the crank sensor is good, as well as the ICM. I'm going through them next though just to be thorough.
I'm getting odd results from the Noid lights connected to to the injector wires. I'm using the standard kit from Autozone rental. With multimeter I get 12v from each set of injector wires. The noid light does not light, however. When measuring the voltage with the noid light connected, the voltage drops to only a few millivolts. Upon cranking, there are no flashes from the noid light. There was 1 flash however, when I turned the key to on....but it's only done this once. One page I read said that noid lights may not light in all applications...they noted some high impedance Honda's as an exception. Anyone have experience with my application and noid lights? or 1995 similar GM's?
Thanks again.
(This post was edited by gwar on Oct 23, 2011, 10:11 PM)
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Sidom
Veteran
/ Moderator
Oct 24, 2011, 12:24 PM
Post #7 of 26
(15872 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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I'm away from my database right now but fuel pressure sounds about right and you are correct about checking spark. You do want to use a spark tester as opposed to using a plug or just holding the wire close to ground. The reason being is it take a lot more voltage to fire a plug under compression than what it take to just get a spark out in the open. So if say you had a weak coil, you could waste a lot of time chasing other things down thinking spark is fine, when you could've found the problem right then & there. Try spraying some carb clean or starting fluid down the throttle body & see if you can get it to run that way.
On this system, it should flash the noid light when you are cranking. With the connecter hooked up you should have 12v on both sides of the injector with the KOEO. Just for the hell of it, disconnect all the injector connecters & check for pulse. If this gives you a pulse, then you have a shorted injector.
The OBD I systems you could just disconnect the battery to clear codes. The OBD II systems do have a memory. Usually this takes a scan tool to clear but you can disconnect the battery, turn on the lights, pump the brk pedal & use a few more accessories & that will be enough drain out the system. A quick in field method to clear everything was to disconnect BOTH cables, touch them together & the hook them back up. If you do that & all the codes come back, I would be looking really hard at the PCM. Like I said before, with codes on that system you are suppose to start with the lowest number code 1st unless it's a 5x series code then you would start with the lowest 5x code 1st.
The only thing in the back of my head is you really don't have the right equipment to pull codes or read data on this, so at this point I can't trust your data 100%. I can't say for positive but I believe these systems are federal only. The reason being I have been doing diags for years (working in CA) & had never heard of this hybrid system until I came here & have done tons of 95 GMs. Then I finally got one, checked under the hood & it had a federal emission label. After a little more research found out Snap On does make the connector for my scanner..BUT after doing the math....Doing this 30+ years & have only seen 3 to this point & it's only on 95s.....I passed on the new connector...I told the shop...they can buy it if they want.....
(This post was edited by Sidom on Oct 24, 2011, 12:27 PM)
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 24, 2011, 6:10 PM
Post #8 of 26
(15865 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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Something is fishy here. Disconnecting the battery will clear the computer's memory. If you are getting all those code just by turning the key on after clearing RAM, I'd be suspecting a faulty computer if your scanner is working properly. You got several QDM codes in your list and a couple QDMs run the injector drivers. Some of those codes do not show up in the list. Plus, since it is the switch off year for GM, you should see P codes instead of 2 digit codes.
You really should have someone come by or take it to a shop that has the enhanced scan tool(TECH 2) that can interface that just to verify your getting the correct information as Sidom stated.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Oct 24, 2011, 6:12 PM)
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gwar
User
Oct 30, 2011, 9:06 PM
Post #9 of 26
(15837 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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Thanks for all your help everyone.
I've spent the weekend running through some more tests.
I found a nice site that has detailed testing for the GM 3.8L engines:
no links allowed
Basically, all the tests passed except the Fuel Injector Noid Light Test:
no links allowed
This last time I performed the test, I started to get a flashing Noid light, but then it quit. I moved it to another plug, flashed twice maybe, then stopped.
I had all injectors unplugged. After the 3rd plug, I got no more flashes, even moving back to earlier tested ones.
So I tried to run it off a can of carb cleaner. It did fire up and run as well as could be expected from a can.
I guess this narrows it down to a fuel injector system problem. Does this mean I should buy a rebuilt computer and replace it? When I looked at mine, it has a chip inside. Do I get a new chip with a new computer, or do I put mine in the new computer? What if the chip is the problem, not the computer, or both?
Thanks again,
(This post was edited by Sidom on Oct 30, 2011, 11:12 PM)
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Sidom
Veteran
/ Moderator
Oct 30, 2011, 11:32 PM
Post #10 of 26
(15829 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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Well it looks like you've narrowed it down to a pulse problem since it runs on carb clean so that's good...Good job!.....
It could be a bad PCM but that isn't the only thing it could be....That's the tough thing here, you are limited by not having the all the right equipment so it's probably going to come down to guessing, which can get expensive if you are wrong...
I know the comp is throwing a buttload of codes which is sometimes the sign of a bad comp but DS was right that they should be P codes so we aren't even sure if this is valid or not. It would be nice to be able to check at the PCM conecter to see if a cmp signal is getting there & if it looks good. I realize you probably don't have a scope but it would be nice
One thing you could do is do a visual of the cmp sensor wiring at the frt of the engine & around the ign control module. Make sure no harnesses have rubbed thru or aren't oil soaked, if there soaked, you're gonna need to open up the loom & check out the wires. Maybe disconnect the TPS, if the comp thinks it's at WOT, it'll shut off the injectors.
There are actually a couple different injection systems port & sequential, port fires banks while sequential fires individual ones.... Is the 8 digit of the vin a K or L ?
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gwar
User
Nov 1, 2011, 8:26 PM
Post #11 of 26
(15815 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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The TPS sensor did pass the tests. Voltage ramped up and down nicely when moving it between closed and open throttle. I probed the cmp signal at the ign control module, there it was good, well, got a flashing LED from it.
The 8th digit of VIN is a "K".
I'm not sure what you mean by a "federal" emission label in your previous post. I'm also not sure if I can post pictures here, so instead, I've typed the label from under the hood in below, verbatim:
NRD VEHICLE EMISSION GM CATALYST
CONTROL INFORMATION EGR/HO2S/TWC/SFI
ENGINE DISPL: 3.8 LITER ENGINE FAMILY: S1G3.8V8GFEC EVAP FAMILY: S1G1058AYM0D
SPARK PLUG GAP: .060 INCH 38V8GFEU
NO OTHER ADJUSTMENTS NEEDED. (barcode)
SEE SERVICE MANUAL AND MAINTENANCE
SCHEDULE FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
THIS VEHICLE CONFORMS TO U.S. EPA AND CALIFORNIA REGULATIONS APPLICABLE TO 1995
MODEL-YEAR NEW PASSENGER CARS. IF THIS VEHICLE IS BUILT FOR USE OUTSIDE THE U.S., IT
MAY NOT COMPLY WITH U.S. EPA FUEL LABELING REGULATIONS. PRINTED IN U.S.A.
OBD I CERTIFIED. PT. NO 24504066
I did forget to mention before, when reading codes with the GM OBD I adapter, I had to enter the vehicle into the scan tool as a 1994 (instead of 95), or else it wouldn't read anything.
I have the Equus 3140 Innova scanner. (brand spankin with all the adapters I'll never need)
I can describe the pinout of my car's diagnostic port also (which was OBD II - 16 pin) along with how I hooked my scan tool up to it if you'd like.
I'll also take a look at the wiring condition around the engine tomorrow. I know up by the firewall, they were all beautiful looking.
Thanks again,
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Sidom
Veteran
/ Moderator
Nov 1, 2011, 10:39 PM
Post #12 of 26
(15810 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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I probably should've rambled on about the fed & CA cars since it really doesn't matter & just confuses things, but just to clear things up for you, all cars in the US fall under 1 of 2 emissions categories. Federal....49 states & CA cuz well.....there are a lot of nut jobs in high places here...So you can see by the CA on your label, you have a CA car & the OBD I at the bottom indicates it's the older system BUT you have an OBD II DLC and there in lies the problem, this was 1 year only & only on GMs.
Personally I have only seen a few of these systems and never on a CA car.....so thx for that.....(I think????)
So here's where we're at....I don't know if we can trust your scan data....You can "lie" to a scanner & it does work, if say you are only updated to 05, you get in an 06 using the same basic system, you can load it as an 05 & you will be able to pull codes, look at data & even have some bi-directional capabilities. With yours, these are 2 completely different systems the pins on the DLC are different, I'm surprised you got anything doing it that way...
You've pretty much narrowed it down to a pulse problem, you've swept the TPS (I'm assuming the voltage was somewhere around .64 at closed throttle) so that sounds good. You really need to backprobe the connector at the PCM and look at the cmp sensor pattern. Without a scope you could use a volt meter, it should have 5v with the KOEO & vary while cranking but that doesn't mean the pattern is good just there is some kind of signal...
I'm not sure what the LED was but you should also measure voltage at the ign mod & check for varying voltage...
If all that checks out I guess it would be time to bite the bullet & get a PCM for it but this is by no means a 100% diagnosis....I'd be putting it in the range of 50%, personally I wouldn't be comfortable with that (unless I had access to a good tester) but it's your call.... this might help you, also you should backprobe but if you pierce a wire make very sure you seal it or you'll have trouble down the road... The CMP signal is pin RB9 on the red connecter...(footnote 2 is varying voltage)
One quick note.....now that I think about it, the security light isn't on or flashing is it?
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gwar
User
Nov 8, 2011, 8:56 PM
Post #13 of 26
(15769 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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Alright, first, to get my scanner connected, I had to connect pin 5 of my 16 pin car connector to pin A of the OBD I adapter. This was the ground connection. Next I connected pin 9 of the car to pin M of the adapter. This is listed as the "8192 Baud data". Then I set the scanner to 1994 GM with "K" as 8th digit of VIN (it asked that). That's how I got all the codes I posted in first post.
To answer your 2nd question, I got 0.50 volts coming from the TPS when throttle closed. It ramped up very smoothly to 4.36v when wide open.
Next I tested for the CMP signal at the RB9 pin on the red connector from your post. I used the test described at easyautodiagnostics dot com on the GM 3.8L Cam (CMP) Sensor Test page. Previously I did this test along with the 18x and 3x Crank Sensor tests at the ignition module itself. The crank sensor tests used the LED light while you're cranking the engine - you would see the LED blink to the pulse. For the cam test, he has you turn the engine over slowly with a large ratchet on the crank bolt. You should get 5v most of the time, except when the interrupter comes through the sensor, which then the voltage drops to 0. As you turn a little further, you get the 5v back. I verified this at the ign module and at RB9 at the PCM. I also tested Injector grounds and PCM grounds at RB11 - RB13 and they were all good.
As for the security light, it comes on with the rest of the dash when ign is turned on, then goes out. Never saw it flash or come on during normal driving. Not sure what it even means, there is no security system on the car that I know of. Just the resistor in the key.
 
Images are from obd2allinone dot com.
(This post was edited by gwar on Nov 8, 2011, 8:57 PM)
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Sidom
Veteran
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Nov 8, 2011, 9:56 PM
Post #14 of 26
(15764 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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This car does have a security system on it. Without that resistor, the car wouldn't start....
You know something, just for the heck of it, lets do a relearn on this, just for my own piece of mind...
Disconnect both battery cables and touch them together & then hook them back up.
Turn the key to the on/run position (don't crank it) and let it sit in the on position for at least 10 minutes, not 1 second short, longer is no big deal (hook up a charger to be sure the battery doesn't go down).
Then turn the key directly to the start position and see if it starts.
Do this a total of 3 times, each time it doesn't start turn the key all the way (do not disconnect the battery), wait and turn back to the on position without trying to crank it....
Obviously if by some miracle it started on the 1st time, you wouldn't do it the other 2 times
(This post was edited by Sidom on Nov 8, 2011, 10:00 PM)
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gwar
User
Nov 13, 2011, 10:55 PM
Post #15 of 26
(15727 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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Ok, tried the relearn procedure you suggested. No change really. It will still run on carb cleaner, but not on its own. Security light goes off after turning key on.
So, if I do need a new computer, I'm not sure how I can really replace it. I looked on RockAuto and found this one for $125, but it has the following note on it:
A-1 CARDONE Part # 773247 Reman. A-1 CARDONE Engine Control Computer; Does not include PROM with Powertrain Control Module; Vehicle specific Flash programming req'd ON or OFF the vehicle. Accurate VIN and mileage are req'd. Additional on-car programming must be performed AFTER install to prevent drivability issues.
So the PROM is the chip? What if it's my chip that's bad? Also, how do I get the flash programming done? And on-car additional programming?
I've also read the FAQ at Cardone and found this:
Before installing an ECM, you must test ALL related circuits on the vehicle to determine which one(s) caused the failure. Use the HOT BOX or a DVOM and measure the resistance at the harness connector. If any values are less than the specified ohms, you must find and fix the cause.
SPECIAL NOTE: THE MOST COMMON CAUSE OF ECM FAILURE IS DUE TO ONE OR MORE OF THE ECM CONTROLLED SOLENOIDS / RELAYS SHORTED
Where can I get a listing of the correct resistance readings of the harness connectors? Should I go through every relay/solenoid on the car? Is there a listing of those?
Guess I've still got a lot of work cut out for myself.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 14, 2011, 4:05 AM
Post #16 of 26
(15719 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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This car uses Passkey so there is no relearn procedure for this one. If the security light is on or flashing, it would require a tech2 or equivalent scan tool to diagnose it. It has it's own, separate module for that system.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Sidom
Veteran
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Nov 14, 2011, 8:45 PM
Post #17 of 26
(15706 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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This is true that the circuits should be checked for shorts, along with the powers & grounds. The one difference here is with most PCM no starts, that's just it, you can't get it to start so you have a lot of manual testing to do..
You can get yours to run and if it runs pretty decent, while not 100%, you know the ign system is good, nothing is pulling down the 5v ref (or it wouldn't run). Really about the only thing out of the loop is the injectors. I would definitely ohm all of them out......My database is down but most GM injectors are in the 12 ohm range. You find one with zero ohms (not to be confused with infinity, that would be an open circuit) & that is a problem
If you want to check the grounds you can see a few on the connector I posted, I can post the other connector once I get my database back if you want to check powers but like I said, you can get it to run on carb clean....so obviously its got power, ground & a 5v ref. You just weren't able to scope anything to verify good patterns.....
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 14, 2011, 9:07 PM
Post #18 of 26
(15702 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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There is no programming the ECM for that one. You just take the PROM out of the old ECM and plug it into the reman ECM.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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bobgee
Novice
Nov 19, 2011, 4:31 AM
Post #19 of 26
(15646 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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i have been having exact same problems except no codes.
i do have questions tho. firstly, can we definitely rule out crank sensor? everyone i talk to wants to replace this even tho
i have good spark with a hei tester.
i also could only get my noid to light up once. when i hook it up to battery directly it will light brightly but at plug with 12.4 volts
it wont light. with volt meter connected to plug volts will go down when trying to start.
is it possible for all injectors to go out at once or will one bad one take all of them out. or is this a sign of whatever controls injector pulse is bad.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 19, 2011, 4:47 AM
Post #20 of 26
(15639 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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If you have a question please start a new thread and not hijack this one.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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gwar
User
Apr 15, 2012, 9:16 PM
Post #21 of 26
(14752 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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Hey guys,
Well after letting the Olds sit in the garage all winter (without touching it besides turning the battery charger on once in a while), I decided to give it a crank yesterday and see how it sounded.
It started right up!
Was idling fine, no CEL.
I turned it off, put the air cleaner assembly and other covers back on, then drove it down the road as if nothing ever happened to it.
Was as smooth as it has ever been.
So now I'm really scratching my head.
As you can see from previous posts, last I left it, it would only run on carb cleaner, and I had narrowed the problem down to the injectors not getting a proper pulse.
It's been sitting 5 months, connected to a good battery. I don't see how anything would have been reset.
Of course I'm nervous to drive it a distance because if it fails again I may be abandoning it on the side of the road.
So I'm wondering now, would a problem that just "magically" goes away like this point to anything specific?
What sucks, is if I go and change the ECC like I had been planning, the vehicle may keep working along just fine, but I won't know if that actually fixed the problem.
Anyone have any thoughts?
Thanx!
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Apr 16, 2012, 6:24 AM
Post #22 of 26
(14738 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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Can only guess now if all is well with no codes (probably OBD I) it will need to die on you which suks to find out why. Any repair now will be an aimless guess.
Had one of those myself but a real toilet of a car but legal. Three times it just shut down - would crank and finally caught it with tools on it. No spark and no fuel pressure. Junked the car as minutes later it plain ran like new so nothing to find and as said was a toilet car so no big deal. I'm not into walking with keys in hand nor would anyone like that. Three possibilities would have exceeded that one's value so it's a Kia or something now
If you don't find some connection possibly green with corrosion you are in trouble to be sure of what is up. Tossing parts could and probably will be a total waste of money now if running properly - argh!
T
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Apr 16, 2012, 6:31 AM)
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gwar
User
Apr 16, 2012, 10:11 PM
Post #23 of 26
(14718 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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Well I guess I spoke too soon. Took it out for a drive tonight, got about 25 mi and same thing happened as first time. CEL came on and it coughed, sputtered and died at the side of the road. Just cranked, no re-start. Waited a few minutes as I called someone to come get me, then tried cranking again. Fired up as if nothing happened. No CEL. Was able to make it the next 5 mi or so back home, no problems. (Even had to wait 5 min for a train)
So I'm going to have to go through and check more wiring and see if anythings rubbed through. I think I'll go and add some grounds to stuff too in case something is just not grounded properly.
I would assume this rules out the computer as being bad....if it works sometimes, but then fails, then works again?
Loren
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Apr 18, 2012, 8:13 AM
Post #24 of 26
(14668 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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I'm old but still alive with mega experience with cars in general.
You have to get codes read even if not OBD II it has something to say. If you can't find help where you are than shut off your computer and find help on hand.
No problem coming here to find an easy fix. Doubt this is one. Trust me the guys (all guys right now) are here to help for FREE but might be time to junk this car and cut losses you'll never recover!
T
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gwar
User
Oct 22, 2012, 7:19 PM
Post #25 of 26
(13135 views)
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Re: 1995 Olds 88 sudden problem
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Thanks for all the help everyone!
To finish up the thread, I ended up just buying a new computer (ECM) from Autozone ($112) and putting my chip into it. Started up and has been running fine ever since. Did this in July, so last 3 months no problems. It did not require any on-car or special programming as the Cardone web site says. I never did find anything that would have caused the problem in the first place, but it's not unheard of for these to go bad after a while. Car is 17 years old. Again, thanks for everyone's assistance. 
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1989 toyota pickup 3.0 crank no start
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