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VW won't start when hot - Not starter
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DouglasAcademy
New User
Apr 28, 2011, 12:46 PM
Post #1 of 10
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VW won't start when hot - Not starter
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Why won’t my car start when it is hot? I have a VW Quantum Station Wagon built in 1985. It has about 100,000 miles. It is a manual transmission without a computer. It is front wheel drive and has 5 gears. It will not start when it is warm outside or when the car has been driven for a long time. At first the problem was infrequent and only when the temperatures climbed to the hundreds, but over the last three years it has become more frequent and with lower temperatures. Now it won't start when the temperatures are above 70 degrees or so. We have replaced the starter motor and the solenoid and maybe some other parts that have to do with the starter. This made no difference. We can push start the car. As the car cools down, at first there will be no response when we turn the key, then later it will make a clicking sound, then it will start; but only if the outside temperature is cool enough. The lights always work, so it is not connected with the battery. It starts right up when the weather is right and the engine is cold. Any ideas?
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Apr 28, 2011, 1:20 PM
Post #2 of 10
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Re: VW won't start when hot - Not starter
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You still need to know that battery and both cable connections are good. To me that clicking sound suggests either low amps delivered, too much load from the engine, or cable connection or cables themselves. Just know starter is the biggest draw on the car - other things don't use anywhere near the amps,
T
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wolfdogg
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Apr 29, 2011, 12:40 AM
Post #3 of 10
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Re: VW won't start when hot - Not starter
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have you checked the battery cables? take them off the battery and use the wirebrush made for this to clean all the terminals. make sure the batery cables arent corroded in any way either at the point that they connect to the lead connector. this will resist all the battery power, and may be thermo sensitive from the heat you mention from contraction and expansion. once cleaned, make sure cables are completely tight where you cant budge them, and a hammer wont twist them when tapped on the side of the bolt, or cable end of the lead.
then you can check the electrolite fluid of your battery with an electrolite tester to make sure it can handle a load, or if its a maintenance free battery then you have to to autozone or somewhere they can do a load test, disconnect it there, and have them test it.
another issue is sometimes people move the ground cable from one location to another, make sure the ground cable is grounded to the factory position, and not somewhere inadequate. i can think that the engine is a bad place, unless it was factory. i believe personally the chassis is a better place for a ground.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Apr 29, 2011, 8:17 AM
Post #4 of 10
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Re: VW won't start when hot - Not starter
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Quote ">>another issue is sometimes people move the ground cable from one location to another, make sure the ground cable is grounded to the factory position, and not somewhere inadequate. i can think that the engine is a bad place, unless it was factory. i believe personally the chassis is a better place for a ground.<<"
Oh really! Can I have fries with that? Better to ground direct to body or chasis before engine block? Are you nuts or what? Starter is bolted to engine so why would you want main ground to "chassis" and not where starter is grounded simply by being bolted up?
Engine block gets ground first then other cable (braided or other) to ground metal of body which are throughout a vehicle.
Right now we don't know condition of cables at all and as I said they need to be known good and clean connections, at battery and engine for ground, at battery and starter solenoid for positive. Body metal gets grounded either direct from battery or another from engine block.
That's the way it works or have enough buddies with you all the time to push!
T
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wolfdogg
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Apr 29, 2011, 3:43 PM
Post #5 of 10
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Re: VW won't start when hot - Not starter
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sometimes when the ground is on the wrong location on the block the current takes the wrong channels, and causes problem, this is why i state to check the factory position for the car.
now, about my opinion, the chassis is better if you put it on the wrong place on the block. if its on the correct place on the block, then your ok. the only way to know the correct place on the block is if you have a manual and check the factory.
and i dont appreciate your criticism, your opinon is ok though. you did say to check the cables, but you faiiled to offer the method as to how one would go about that, so i supplemented your post with that info.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Apr 29, 2011, 4:53 PM
Post #6 of 10
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Re: VW won't start when hot - Not starter
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As far as the starter is concerned, there is no better location than the block. The starter has to have a direct path to the battery. If it's grounded at the chassis, then there also has to be a very heavy rated ground from the block to the chassis to complete the path.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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wolfdogg
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Apr 30, 2011, 12:36 AM
Post #7 of 10
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Re: VW won't start when hot - Not starter
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i would normally agree to someone who seems to be coming from experience, but in this case, sometimes the engine components DO interfere with the path of electricity. let me give you an example.
recently, i had a loose battery terminal on a honda 1.6 vtec. when i jump started it with a 40amp plug in jump starter, i connected the hot on the battery lead, that leads directly to the starter, and i hooked the negative on teh block, near the front of the engine. when i turned on the key, all the lights were dim, and there was a buzzing sound emitting from some engine component that was drawing off the current. this is because the ground was having to flow through engine components. the same thing happens when the ground connection from the battery is hooked in an unfavorable location. its hit and miss with this.
its safe to assume that the starter in this case is not having a grounding issue simply because of a chassis grounded battery and a bad chassis to engine ground. i was just trying to make my point a bit more clear so that you may learn that sometimes a poorly chosen engine ground is not the best because there are certain components, hard to tell what, that affect the current flow. sometimes its even the rings of the cylinders that act like little capacitors as the current oscillates through them.
my best suggestion is if you have the ground on the engine block, make sure its not on a head bolt, but on a bolt that ties directly into the side of the block, the mount is either sanded, wirebrushed, or grinded clean, and is located very near the starter itself. otherwise ground it to the frame of the car (the chassis). there is plenty of current flow into the engine through the chassis, but a good braided ground cable from the block to the chassis will also help.
my main point was, for the original poster to check to see if the ground cable looked like it was not in the original location, and if they suspected it being tampered with and relocated to a lame spot, then relocate it to see if it resolves the started problems.
Sometimes its not just current that affects the starting, but bad capacitance infiltrating the current flow that can throw off a starters function, since it requires such a high current draw.
(This post was edited by wolfdogg on Apr 30, 2011, 12:42 AM)
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wolfdogg
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May 1, 2011, 2:07 AM
Post #9 of 10
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Re: VW won't start when hot - Not starter
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yes electricity flows to ground, bar none. i am an electonic engineer....
there is objects in a car engine that cause problems with current flow, flow to ground in particular. The starter and alternator, arent the only thing in the car that use the engine/chassis ground. since the engine is so close to the battery, its not that far to travel. 18 inches is usually a good max-length standard for grounding high current items. As far as something hig current in the rear of the car such as a rear defroster, or a solenoid, they use the ground that flows through the chassis. if you ground the engine, its just one more channel that it has to pass to make it the rest of the way to the rear. The automotive electrical system is not based on the starter alone. Granted the most current demand is the starter, and this problem is the starter. But since the 4 guage hot is directly connected to the starter, theres a little give on the ground choice.
since i have personally experienced issues with starting with improper grounding on an engine block, particularly when a heated thermo sensitive starter was the main issue, its sounding all too familiar. this is the basis of my suggestion.
i would make sure and check the ground if its on the block and is not in the factory position. experience tells me so.
care to talk about leaky capacitors, saw waves, tank circuits, or trace film? ;)
(This post was edited by wolfdogg on May 1, 2011, 2:10 AM)
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