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Neutral Safety Switch: Which wires are what?
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geekzack
Novice
Dec 10, 2015, 1:16 PM
Post #1 of 16
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Neutral Safety Switch: Which wires are what?
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Hello! A couple weeks ago my car decided to finally give up after months of this starting issue. Many bought parts later, I bring it to a mechanic and he find out that its my nss gone bad. When trying to bypass it, the wires confused him. Not sure which wires to splice/bypass he says. After doing some research myself, even I am unsure. So, I found you guys and decided to post this question: Of the two sets of cables, one being blue+white and the other black+white, which colors go where? Mindboggling, because all I havce found is blue/black and black/white setups.
1995 Chrysler Concord, 3.3L engine
(This post was edited by geekzack on Dec 10, 2015, 1:18 PM)
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kev2
Veteran
Dec 10, 2015, 1:29 PM
Post #2 of 16
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Re: Neutral Safety Switch: Which wires are what?
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something is nor kosher-
the switch Is a plug in, no wires to deal with, the labor time to bypass would be greater than the part SO what is the whole story?
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Dec 10, 2015, 1:41 PM
Post #3 of 16
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Re: Neutral Safety Switch: Which wires are what?
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I can see the confusion with what I found I don't think I'd jump wires to it as there are 9 if correct and inside trans requiring removal of valve body. It controls back up lights, shifts out of park if brake not applied among other things. Do those work?
I'll post below what is free and published on replacement of it which can be totally wrong so AYOR.
IDK if stuck to get it to start (obviously) I'd look for trigger wire at starter solenoid and check for power first if present when requesting start and if not probably with no other info take that off and trigger it with a jumper right to solenoid.
Should probably move this to the transmission section as it isn't very DIY friendly from what I can see from copy below.......
Neutral Safety And Back-up Lamp Switch Transaxle Transaxle Learning Procedure Understanding Automatic Transaxles Specifications Charts
Chrysler Concorde/Intrepid/LHS/New Yorker/Vision 1993-1997Neutral Safety and Back-up Lamp Switch
Print
The neutral safety switch used in the 42LE automatic transaxle is called a Manual Valve Lever Position Sensor (MVLPS).
This sensor interprets the position of the manual valve inside the valve body. The information gathered is sent to the transaxle control module.
This sensor provides starting in P and N positions and also operates the back-up lamp circuit.
REMOVAL & INSTALLATION
See Figures 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5
  
Fig. Fig. 1: Removal and installation of the oil pan
Fig. Fig. 2: Removal and Installation of the filter
Fig. Fig. 3: Removal and installation of the valve body bolts
Fig. Fig. 4: Removal and installation of the valve body
Fig. Fig. 5: Removal and installation of the MVLPS
The MVLPS connector extends outside the transaxle on the left side, next to the fill tube. The MVLPS is mounted on top of the valve body. The MVLPS and valve body must be removed from the transaxle assembly. - Disconnect the negative battery cable.
- Unplug the MVLPS connector.
- Remove the transaxle pan. Refer to the transaxle oil pan instructions located in General Information & Maintenance
- Remove the valve body assembly from the transaxle. As follows:
- Unplug the MVLPS wiring connector. The solenoid wiring connector can remain attached to the case.
- Disconnect the shift cable from the shift lever at the transaxle side.
- Move the shift lever clockwise past the L position.
- Remove the transaxle pan bolts and pan.
- Remove the oil filter from the valve body. It is held in place by 2 clips.
- Remove the valve body bolts and carefully remove the valve body assembly from the transaxle.
The valve body can be remove from the transaxle with the transaxle remaining in the vehicle. For clarity the illustrations shown are with the transaxle out of the vehicle. - Remove the manual shaft retaining screw.
- Slide the MVLPS off of the manual valve shaft.
WARNINGThe overdrive and underdrive accumulators and springs may fall out when removing the valve body.
To install:
- Side the MVLPS on to the manual valve shaft.
- Install the retaining screw securing the MVLPS to the valve body.
- Prior to installing the valve body, make sure the accumulators are installed in the proper location.
- Carefully install the valve body and install the bolts. Snug the bolts evenly in a crisscross pattern.
- In a crisscross pattern, tighten the valve body bolts to 40 inch lbs. (5 Nm.)
- Install a new filter.
- When installing the oil pan be sure that the pan flange is clean and oil free. Apply a 1 / 8 inch bead of silicone sealer onto the oil pan.
- Install the oil pan and bolts. Snug the bolts evenly in a crisscross pattern.
- In a crisscross pattern, tighten the oil pan bolts to 165 inch lbs. (19 Nm).
- Engage the MVLPS connector.
- Connect the negative battery cable.
********************************************No clue why they made this so involved?
T
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geekzack
Novice
Dec 10, 2015, 1:51 PM
Post #4 of 16
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Re: Neutral Safety Switch: Which wires are what?
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I lived in a small town in north dakota lol. The guy says that it may be cheaper (since im on a tight budget already) to just bypass it instead of digging into the transmision..which even then he doesnt have the equipment, requiring sending it to another shop =T its a smelly deal.
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geekzack
Novice
Dec 10, 2015, 1:54 PM
Post #5 of 16
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Re: Neutral Safety Switch: Which wires are what?
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tom: lights and all are fine. 9 wires thought? ive seen a bunch but only four (2 sets of 2) are connected to the 10-pin the nss hookup
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Dec 10, 2015, 2:14 PM
Post #6 of 16
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Re: Neutral Safety Switch: Which wires are what?
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I have zero credible info to me on this just looked up the part and saw the nightmare which could be all wrong. No telling what loom wires go into trans if so and not on it but in it? Retired sport so not paying for pro editions of ALLDATA.com DIY or pro.
You can and get your $$ back if not thrilled for under $30 for info complete for a said $32 part.
Like I hesitantly suggested just to get it running would look for the trigger wire for testing at starter's solenoid first. If nothing when key turned to start there's an NSS issue - the switch or a plug - it's 21 years old now you tell me/us from an area which I consider harder on cars in general.
Before even messing with much or trying too hard do try starting it in park holding shifter harder towards park and if nothing then neutral wiggling around shifter. This may not be the switch without some testing and trying things but rather linkage wear so it isn't really fully into the spots it should enable starter.
The reason I suggested AYOR take the trigger wire off if you do just jump power there to start it is if power is added back thru a multifunction NSS switch I really don't know what harm it might cause that could be nasty!
Sent a note to the site's transmission expert who might be able to shed better light on this than I can anytime fast,
T
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 10, 2015, 5:09 PM
Post #7 of 16
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Re: Neutral Safety Switch: Which wires are what?
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What kind of mechanic can't follow a starting circuit wiring diagram?
The very simple way to bypass the switch is to just ground the blk/lt grn wire but there is a very good possibility that will interfere with the Transmission Control module logic.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Dec 11, 2015, 12:19 AM
Post #8 of 16
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Re: Neutral Safety Switch: Which wires are what?
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All - to catch our trans expert asked and made another tread that refers to this one. Thread is at trans section buy not by OP right now with some hunting ongoing. Have a PDF link there of diagram but said there at the age think there's a plain worn linkage or shifter position issue going on as it came on over some time not just all at once.
Any OE lube was gone probably 15 years ago for external or exposed parts that move to make it shift at all.
Link to other discussion and sorry I don't know how to combine them which does make it hard to follow.
Other thread = http://autoforums.carjunky.com/...t=search_engine#last
Unknown if the PDF I posted there will show for others?
Tom
(edit) Here's that PDF of diagram.............
starting-chargi...-1-of-1 (1).pdf
May not show?
If it does it show wire HT mentioned or if you look at bottom left of it connecting/jumping #1 and #10 could do the same IMO or mess it up.
A question remains: Do you OP want a vehicle if some trick works whatever is found if electrical at all want to leave this such that it could start in gear? Fine if only YOU drive it and aware of this. It's clearly dangerous to leave it that way as cold starts engine will rev to high idle and could really take off by surprise! I just can't suggest leaving it such that it could do that and would even if an alteration make it so vehicle is sure at least driver is in car and if by a second trigger to starter or some creation it would make it near impossible to make a mistake starting it in gear,
T
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Dec 11, 2015, 12:33 AM)
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Dec 11, 2015, 3:10 AM
Post #9 of 16
(1951 views)
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Re: Neutral Safety Switch: Which wires are what?
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Your link on the other thread doesn't work and all you are doing now is confusing people.
As I posted before, you don't connect any wires together. The switch provides trigger ground for the starter relay so grounding the black with Lt green wire will effectively bypass the switch for starter purposes. As I also stated the TCM monitors that circuit so permanently grounding that wire could effect other things.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Dec 11, 2015, 4:45 AM
Post #10 of 16
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Re: Neutral Safety Switch: Which wires are what?
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Arggh. Tried to unconfused this but was too late. I was highly suspecting this isn't the switch at all but rather it doesn't turn at trans to any spot that will allow current passage to operate.
It came on gradually was the clue that caught my notice.
Two thing still un answered are does power make it to trigger wire and not engage starter? That and where shift cable or rod connects should be a plastic or rubber item either now worn or missing. Turning that by hand for how much lash and if that can make it work this could be just that and now near impossible to find OE new if so.
Sorry to OP for confusion. Your techs that checked it out should have ruled in or out more than has been posted if you knew from those techs who had this in hand without a fix and really shouldn't mean it's now all yours to figure out. If just getting the whole vehicle to another place is now the major obstacle then make that the objective to the right or better place to tend to this,
T
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geekzack
Novice
Dec 11, 2015, 5:06 PM
Post #12 of 16
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Re: Neutral Safety Switch: Which wires are what?
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I appreciate your help everyone. im trying to follow these diagrams but its all kind of confusing. ill let the mechanic view them and see what he can do with it. i understand that bypassing the switch creates a safety issue, but to be honest the car is only needed for a few more months and i dont want to spend massive amounts of cash just to get it on the road.
mechanic says he tried jumping the wires and nothing happens. as far as which colors to cross to get it working is what the problem is. hes clueless to pick the correct ones and he says there are the blue+white wires and black+white wires. of these four, there are ones to cross while adding an on/off switch? like in this video link deleted ............... not allowed
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Dec 11, 2015, 7:23 PM)
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 11, 2015, 6:49 PM
Post #13 of 16
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Re: Neutral Safety Switch: Which wires are what?
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Hack job in that video. That made me laugh.
I don't understand why you are wanting to bypass the NSS. It's not hard to check to see if the switch is bad if you have a volt/ohm meter. If your mechanic cannot figure out what is wrong and wants to cut up and add toggle switches to the harness, maybe you should look for another shop. I personally don't condone what is being done regardless if your going to keep the car for a short time. That is just my opinion. If the others want to help you out with the jerry rigging so be it, but count me out.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Dec 12, 2015, 12:49 AM
Post #14 of 16
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Re: Neutral Safety Switch: Which wires are what?
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Geekzack: This whole thing is lacking proper help for you from what I can make of this.
Refresh: You asked for this problem to be fixed and seems the shop or techs didn't find out for sure what the problem was at all but does fully resemble that of a failed NSS. Fine - so with lack of funds and this one being so costly to get to this idea of bypassing it came up and I think that's where it all went wrong so far.
Can this start at all triggering the starter as if it wasn't even in a car? I'm not convince anyone has checked if the damn solenoid or connections are any good, if tested or was thought of at all?
It's really not supposed to be up to you to make a diagnosis nor fix it yourself in any manner as the customer and said short on funding this for a switch that hasn't yet been prove to me is bad at all!
If not for the web full of mistakes people wouldn't be double checking things they have a problem with anywhere which is happening fast as wild speed on me now (fully retired from this) quick show me how easy some anything is on some iPhone thing because your symptoms matched it must be just like that - NO. Your situation changed totally when you mentioned N. Dak was this car's home for quite some of it's life to me.
That's as harsh of conditions on a vehicle you will find also same issues in plenty of other places just more choices of who or where to go with what now is a VERY old car for the area to even still be running or usable at all so 10 problems just like that aren't going to happen in all of ND in anyone's memory.
I've asked if there was power at the "trigger" wire with no answer probably because you don't know what I mean or this shop did or didn't check there and you aren't informed of that.
With the starter sitting on the floor you can make it work as said up top with any spare battery and a jumper wire to duplicate what the car would do. With conditions this car has been exposed to before getting all involved with anything that should be easy and first to rule out and WE are all digging out wiring diagrams, what can go wrong in attempts to bypass or create a way to start this car without step one.
If nobody knew how you could or they could send it out to test starter itself highly likely IMO and may have been ruled out.
See pic..........
Note the small nut on this pic on treaded copper colored connection. That's the trigger wire (I think without looking right at your exact one or not show in this pic but has something to do that) to make this starter work that a NSS will not allow power to for real safety reasons. Trouble is that little sucker is probably so corroded it won't even unscrew without breaking but could be tested for power or jumped right to it to simply know if starter works at all now only sold whole and in stock so still a popular part.
Unless that exact part and larger cable were assertively re-greased on some couple year schedule that will break off requiring a new starter even if not the real problem at all! There's a high chance this car over it's life has had a couple new starters but can't know that.
So: Until this one thing is known which is in one method or another common to about all electric start engines vehicles or not there's not much point in looking for step 2 which is why and I don't think the diagnosing ever got even that far.
This makes the problem for you who can isolate where the real problem is and by your saying it nearest alternative places is this shop is that poorly equipped is the problem - right? You weren't going to do this yourself no matter what was found as I see it so issue is back to money to get it to proper person or place IMO.
What do you want to do and what can you do to find the right place or person and get the car to that place?
That seems to be what you need to figure out not how it all works at all,
Tom
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Dec 12, 2015, 1:04 AM)
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geekzack
Novice
Dec 13, 2015, 6:18 PM
Post #15 of 16
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Re: Neutral Safety Switch: Which wires are what?
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Hey Tom, sorry for being late on a reply. Many things keeping me busy. Here's a lit of work I've done to try to fix this problem:
Battery(also bought new terminal clamps, cleaned the copper wiring)
Ignition Switch
Starter, twice (though checking the cables im not sure of)
The OE lube I will have to ask about and that worn linkage possibility you mentioned. After asking some other people, im told that just having any dirt buildup underneath the car can cause similar problems? I question that, though, because the guy i brought the car to plugged his device in and the code it gave him was for the NSS. I wish i knew more about these sorts of things but this was never a real major interest growing up. ask me about computers and ill talk forever lol. back to the point though, im guessing the starter idea is good since i switched out two brand new ones. one other thing to mention is that Ron (mechanic that ill now name) showed me that when the key is in forward position and lights are on, he shift the gear and my reverse light on the panel never turns off. he says my car is stuck in reverse, rather that with the failed nss, that my car 'thinks' its in reverse?
another idea has come into mind, which what i was originally going to the mechanic for, is an alternator issue? i had a guy plug something into the lighter outlet as well as using a voltmeter (if thats what its called) and he said alternator and battery are fine. but thats only checking one aspect of the alternator? i guess theres a way to take it out and run it to see if its charging anything?
ron said he hooked up something to the starter to jump it and the car started right up but if the car were ever to turn off he would just have to keep jumping it.
one more thing...we tried using jumper cables one time and noticed that there was little to no spark when the jumper rubbed against battery terminal. it was like a faint static shock you get from a shirt or something.
i hope this information helps. and thanks again for all your help...would be nice to get this darn thing working again.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 13, 2015, 7:38 PM
Post #16 of 16
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Re: Neutral Safety Switch: Which wires are what?
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I'm tired but replying anyway - sorry.
I got caught up with a linkage not NSS because of already said the age and location car has been exposed to. This thread is long my fault too but has happened to me so much I don't think of the switch first with this. It's also not exposed in this car makes it less likely to me.
Ron as you said his name thought that the car thought it was in reverse and it might. There's a grey area of motion where the park will stick and hold the car but not start. Another car maker this crap was notorious for 20 model years or so. Owned dozens of them in those they didn't start unless you pushed the shift lever towards beyond "P" as if there was another choice beyond that every time and didn't think much about it just did that. They didn't even need to be older or have many miles - almost all did that. One or more would fall into reverse by itself out of park which wasn't funny at all if just getting out of the car to get mail or clear windshield if iced up or something and the damn car took off! Some had automatic parking brake releases so setting parking brake didn't help as it releases and car went off by itself. Learned to disconnect parking automatic releases and have on all my own that have that feature now that don't pull this trick anyway.
A problem is I need Ron or you to just do some really dumb-arsed easy checks that seem to escape everyone and move on if not that.
OK: Test: Put car in park. Engine off please if you had it running, does it move or is it locked?
* Now if locked and doesn't engage starter with helper would help move have person move shifter at all so you see where it goes into transmission. See what kind of linkage moved it wires/cables or a rod of some sort. That thing turns for what selection should be. Now turn it by hand towards the direction of PARK. Stand aside, block wheels, set brakes or have helper holding firm on brakes and see if it starts or tries to. If it does Voila!!!!! It's thinks it's not in park!!!!!!!!!! If all sticky then take the damn cables of that thing and move it by hand without chance they alone are the problem.
This test which should be so primal should be ruled in or out and move on to the fix. If this shifts and starts by hand without using the shifter in the car then ends finding what's wrong. Now a hunt for parts or adjustments, lube or what works. It truly the NSS Ron had it running so drive to where that can be done - fixed!
Do make sure parking brake works really well. A good one is very strong and will hold against the engine unless you really put a lot of power to it and engine is strong enough.
The reason I gravitate for this stuff first is because I've owned so damn many cars many to most given to me all things worn out but a fixable car you find out the weak links of old age and conditions - shifters to sun visors that fall down or whatever all over things.
Lubes: Metal things, Silicone grease by tube or spray if you can find it. Spray grease common is White Lithium Grease. There's always a need for WD-40 but it doesn't last long on exposed metal parts. Great for latches inside like glove boxes, ash trays that move some you need to, to get at a power port/lighter. Don't forget plain oil in a pump can or drip lube thing either.
All that crap gets neglected. How special when thing strand you over stupid crap like that? Love it when a glove box stays open when latch wore out and broke but light stays on and the battery goes dead and stuck with no car over it.
I drive and owned all sorts and have seen plenty that dumb that totally escapes notice somehow.
Had a boss once who's favorite line was "Don't forget the small stuff" and he was right but a butt head and also a great mechanic.
Been long day already. Spent it putting bumper back on a $100,000 buck Caddy when backing out of garage a neighbor had a dog jump all over her and hit the side pulling off the bumper! Stuff happens - that's fine now till a body shop can fix it better for looks alone now. Yup ruin a whole day and do damage over a dog that gets excited to go for a ride at the wrong time!
I couldn't make that story up! Tom
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