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90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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lukebrubaker
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May 14, 2009, 1:30 PM
Post #1 of 23
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90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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1990
Chevy Lumina
3.1
180,000 miles
Hello,
I am at my wits end with this issue and I am tired of putting money in this car without the problem being fixed. This car runs great when it wants to but unexpectedly dies and then does not start until it sits for a while. After changing the fuel filter and checking pressure, and other areas I decided to take it in to a shop. They said the problem was a fuel injector that was shorting out and they had to unplug it to get it to even run. They charged me $140 for another injector and gasket plus labor. I thought excellent now it is fixed. I drove it 100 miles to chicago and drove around a little while I was there for about 3 days and then made it back no problem. I drove it another 30 miles the day I returned to see my mother. It died about 10 miles on the way back while it was idleing. I waited a day and tried it again and got it another 10 miles before it died while doing about 50 mph... So I waited another day and then finally got it the rest of the way back to my hometown where I dropped it off at the shop that said it was fixed. Now they are telling me that they have checked everything and they think it is a bad wiring harness or a bad pcm computer. They are telling me to take it to some other place to have it checked and tell me it will cost like 70$. I am so tired of spending money on this without finding out what is wrong. I plan on talking to the owner of the shop tomorrow because the only reason I took it to them was to have it diagnosed and I decided to let them do the repair so I wouldn't have to worry about it. How can I find out what the exact problem is without spending more money and having the same darn problem?
Thanks,
Luke
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
May 14, 2009, 2:25 PM
Post #2 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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The big problem you have here is the intermittant failures can only be tested DURING THE FAILURE so if you bring them a running car, they can't confirm anything. If the car will stay dead, then it's just a matter of systematically troubleshooting it.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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lukebrubaker
User
May 14, 2009, 5:21 PM
Post #3 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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OK so your saying I have to wait until it dies again? Well by the time I get it towed back to the auto shop it will prolly start running again.. even if it isn't running what else they can just replace something else until I drive away and it does the same thing, do you see a pattern here? I'm looking for a possible solution and course of action..
Thank You
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
May 15, 2009, 1:17 AM
Post #4 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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As I just said, until it dies and stays dead, there is no solution. Nobody can guess what may have happened at some other time. If the failure isn't present at the moment, then it cannot be positively tested. Anything else is nothing but a guess and you have already seen how much money can be wasted this way.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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lukebrubaker
User
May 15, 2009, 1:43 AM
Post #5 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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I can read what you typed. As I said in my reply that is not a practical solution. I am looking for helpful advice. Not there is nothing you can do but get a ride when it breaks down again, have it towed to the shop where it might run again by the time you get it there. I have told you what I have tried if you cannot offer anything with a shred of insight into this situation please do not post anything because you are not helping. Thank You
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
May 15, 2009, 2:08 AM
Post #6 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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I'm sorry but my crystal ball just isn't working this morning. You may think this is something uncommon but in fact it's something we deal with every day and the answer isn't any different. You can't fix what isn't broken so if the problem isn't present, everything will test good, therefore no way to test for part failure.
This is nothing new. You can sit there and continue to throw parts at it which no one can know are bad or you can systematically test it when the problem is present. That's the nature of your failure, like it or not. Until you can positively identify what circuits worked and which ones didn't during the failure, you have no idea where to look.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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lukebrubaker
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May 15, 2009, 4:01 AM
Post #7 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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McHammer,
Thank You for your expert opinion. A dude name rusty off craigslist had allot of helpful things to tell me. I know you wanna stop at the wall but the thing is your not telling me anything that can help. I totally understand what you are saying now and even when you said it the first 2 times.. Give it a rest and give somebody else a chance to help please. Your not helping or solving anything. You made a good point tho that it has to be not starting when it is diagnosed. If thats all you can say please stop posting. This is not going to turn into a flame post so please stop.
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autojoe
User
May 15, 2009, 2:48 PM
Post #8 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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the one shop that charged you 140 dollars for work that was not needed is wrong.If they did see a problem with a injector on a labscope when vehicle was experiencing the driveability problem then your problem should now be gone....since it is not gone then they should give you your money back.If they were not sure what your problem was then they should have charged you an hour diagnostic fee and if they could not see a problem then tell you not sure where the problem lies.Some tech's are not very knowledgable or don't have proper equipment.All shops are not created equal.I would take to a shop that is ase certified in diagnostics.Why don't you buy a spark tester at local parts store and when stall and won't restart check to see if you have spark.Could also buy a in-expensive injector noid light at local parts store and see if you have injector pulses when it will not start.Report back results.these three are very valuable results when it will not start.....fuel pressure.......spark.........injector pulses.Thats funny that a garage would say they think a wiring harness or pcm..........which one is it.sounds like they don't know what they are doing.
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lukebrubaker
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May 15, 2009, 7:41 PM
Post #9 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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 Thank you Joe! Very helpful. I went and talked to the owner today and all he did was call the mechanic over and the guy just told me the same thing only this time he told me some stupid parable in broken english. I will definitely get one of those noid things and spark tester. Can you offer me any advice on how I should handle the people at that auto shop. They keep telling me the same thing and I dunno that they understand me correctly because it is a mexican shop. They keep telling me that it works as if they can't do anything more and I don't still have a problem. When I took it to them it wasn't starting at all. They said removeing the injector wire on the front of the passenger side engine made it start. I don't know how I can prove that I had or even still have a problem. This bothers me because if I need to take it to another place how can I keep this from happening again. What can I do about the $140 that didn't fix the problem.
Thanks,
Luke
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autojoe
User
May 16, 2009, 9:07 AM
Post #10 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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They just don't want to give your monrey back to you.I don't know what to tell you.Have to find a reliable shop that you can trust.You might be able to fix yourself.Find out if spark and injector pulses during no start.What was the fuel pressure during no start?
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lukebrubaker
User
May 16, 2009, 3:53 PM
Post #11 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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Ok I did a little driving today and it started acting up. It threw me an error code... came back with 45 which is rich fuel. It said to check a charcoal canister. My neighbor said that it might be an oxygen sensor but I don't know that I can reach it to test it. Do you think this might be my problem? How do I proceed?
Luke
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autojoe
User
May 16, 2009, 4:07 PM
Post #12 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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A bad 02 will not cause a no start.It will cause high emmissions or rich condition based on what it is reading in the exhaust.There is an old saying....dont kill the messenger when bad news is delivered.
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autojoe
User
May 16, 2009, 4:20 PM
Post #13 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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are all the injectors buried under plenum?I hope I spelled that right.If there is a short in the wiring harness or injector then it will be difficult to test without proper test equipment.If the injectors are buried would have to remove plenum and check wiring and check resistance of wiring harness.Could buy a new harness.Unless you have a injector shorting out and not wiring at all.Would have to test.If injectors are buried then you cant use a noid light.
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lukebrubaker
User
May 16, 2009, 8:31 PM
Post #14 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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It still is starting but just barely idleing. It did this before as well. If you give it gas it will die. Is it possible for the 02 sensor to create mixture to be so rich that it will bog down? It seems like it is burning to much gas as well.
Luke
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autojoe
User
May 17, 2009, 9:17 AM
Post #15 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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Hook a multimeter up to 02 sensor signal wire and see what 02 is doing.Code 45 occurs when the 02 indicates a rich exhaust condition.Code 45 will set when the 02 sensor output remains over 0.7 volts for more than 30 seconds,providing that the throttle angle is between 3-45 % and the engine has been running for at least one minute.This code can be set by a short to voltage in the 02 sensor circuit,a lead contaminated 02 sensor or any of the following:high fuel pressure/a injector that is seating slowly or leaking/induced voltage(current)from the secondary ignition system/the evaporative control system is either saturated or the purge valve is defective/a erratic tps signal/the egr valve is not seating properly.A shorted injector will also cause this.I have seen this several times with a shorted injector.......will run okay at idle until you touch gas pedal and then the increased current flow through the injector.Would have to check resistance of each injector.I use a scope and also do injector drop testing.....need special tools for that.I wish I could be more help.If you had a scan tool to look at all sensors not counting 02 and the integrator and block learn numbers that tell you what the computer is trying to do as far as trying to reduce or add fuel by increasing or decreasing the injector on time(pulse width).
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lukebrubaker
User
May 17, 2009, 5:47 PM
Post #16 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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Awesome Joe! Thanks allot man. I put a new o2 sensor in it today and it ran for a little bit and its doing the same thing. You gave me a bunch of things to start with. Thank you very much I will let you know what I find out.
Luke
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autojoe
User
May 17, 2009, 7:43 PM
Post #17 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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Take hose off fuel pressure regulator and see if fuel inside vacuum line.if the diaphragm was leaking sending fuel into the engine through the vacuum line.
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lukebrubaker
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May 19, 2009, 3:42 PM
Post #18 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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Joe,
I'm sorry I took so long to reply I had to work yesterday. OK I replaced the o2 sensor. Now I am getting error code 33, and 34 which is Map sensor and idle error/ replace IAC. I took it to two shops, one said they wanted me to drive it again after they cleared the codes and I drove it to the other place where it died. They said it wasn't getting a good spark so I took off the coils and ignition module and had it checked at advance and autozone 8 times. I don't know how to check the coil packs but I also bought a tester and they seem to be getting plenty of spark now. I read something about relearning the idle. Should I replace the map and IAC or both, or in what order? Any ideas?
Thanks,
Luke
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autojoe
User
May 20, 2009, 9:17 AM
Post #19 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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Code 33 and 34 relate to the map sensor.35 relates to ilde speed error.Iac and map have nothing to do with a weak spark.idle relearn should be done only after replacing the iac.Don't rely on shop info on weak spark.Next time it stalls and won't restart hook spark tester to spark plugs and see if during crank you have a good crisp blue spark.clear codes and see which ones re-appear.
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lukebrubaker
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May 20, 2009, 5:49 PM
Post #20 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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Joe,
I found someone with a corsica that has a 2.8 v6 engine that is like mine. I went and took the map sensor from it and the IAC valve and I put the ones from the 2.8 on my lumina. It didn't want to start right away but I will try it tomorrow. I also took the ignition module and coil packs. I might try the coil packs tomorrow too. I am also going to go back and get the fuel rail, injectors and wiring harness from that engine. I paid the guy $40 and he said I can take whatever I want off it. What else should I take off that engine that might be the problem? I have been told the crank sensor, fuel regulator fuel rail... What else should I get? I was also told to try a ECM. Thanks :)
Luke
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autojoe
User
May 21, 2009, 9:06 AM
Post #21 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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I dont believe in throwing parts at a car.Could be several things.You have to eliminate things.That is why hammer and I suggested trying for spark when it will not start.That would eliminate or include the ignition system.You cant check for injector pulses if injectors are buried under the plenum.One shop said injector another said weak spark and you got codes relating to map/iac and also a rich code.Without proper testing equipment it is just guessing what is wrong.You stated didnt want to start right away....that was an chance to test for spark and fuel pressure while cranking.
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felix151
New User
Sep 3, 2009, 8:05 AM
Post #22 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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my name is felix and i have 97 chevy lumin. the car started acting up yeaterday. turns off and has absolutley no power. twice i moved wires under steering column and both times power came on and the car started. the 3rd time i closed the hood and the lites and hazards came on as well as the rest of the electrical work and the car started. car still starts but but havnt drove it because i want to fix it before it happens again. did u ever fix it???
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Loren Champlain Sr
Veteran
/ Moderator
Sep 3, 2009, 11:12 AM
Post #23 of 23
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Re: 90 Lumina runs great but dies and won't start intermittenly
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Felix; That sounds a bit scary...possible electrical fire just waiting to happen. Check very carefully those wires you mentioned. You may find one or more chafed and/or grounding out. Also, you may want to start a new thread as this one is quite old and you may not get many ideas.
Oooops. Just saw your new post. Good job. Mexican food? Beer? I'm on my way! 
Loren
SW Washington
(This post was edited by Loren Champlain Sr on Sep 3, 2009, 11:15 AM)
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