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1973 AMC Matador 6cyl, will not Start
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theshaddonose
Novice
Nov 17, 2014, 12:50 PM
Post #1 of 16
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1973 AMC Matador 6cyl, will not Start
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I have a 1973 Matador that just up and died. Turned it of when it was working fine. Next time I tried to start it, no lights no turnover no nothing. I figured that it was just a dead battery so I tried jumping it. Still no life, but shortly after hooking it up some wires just off the battery hooked up to something that I don't recognize started to smoke. The smoke was coming from the red wire.
http://imgur.com/nF2JDtk
There are a bunch of other issues with the car that have been effecting fuel efficiency. But it was running without issue for years and years.
I have been unemployed and just got a new job that starts in a couple days and I really need help getting it up and running. I need a solid from anyone willing to help. I don't want to sound desperate... but I am.
(This post was edited by theshaddonose on Nov 17, 2014, 1:24 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 17, 2014, 2:01 PM
Post #2 of 16
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Re: 1973 AMC Matador 6cyl, will not Start
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#1 - Can't make you pic show in that format. Try link something like photobucket as it's going to be critical to see which wire to what item.
Good grief - give you credit for counting on now an antique car that wasn't very popular already by '73 using any parts and whole drivetrains from other motor vehicle makers so you really should know which one as even back when you about had to tell what items were from what auto maker to know what to even ask for.
Could be an International Harvester, 258 CID six used in Jeeps and other AMC models for quite a while. May use a fender mounted Ford style solenoid with a single maybe still RED wire going to it. From there off to a bunch of items including alternator.
If you wish to drive any old vehicle never mind super popular ones you need to know a lot about them to be a daily driver especially AMC and now what's even original in question.
Good news is I'm near sure you can still get what you need and it wont be too hard to fix on this. Really need to know what you have but for the short moment thing your alternator fried and probably a fusible link. Battery was or is now so dead it's about a dead short now too - guesses till we know more about this car and a picture is really going to help of just what you are dealing with as best you can get some good ones.
I'm actually pretty familiar with most of what you may find,
T
(edit addition) Was fond of AMC struggling to keep up with some styling designs from a department still hung over from the 1969 Woodstock concert in Bethel, NY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. If you went to that and still alive that's doing something!)
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Nov 17, 2014, 2:07 PM)
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theshaddonose
Novice
Nov 17, 2014, 2:19 PM
Post #3 of 16
(1956 views)
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Re: 1973 AMC Matador 6cyl, will not Start
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Thanks for responding Tom! Here is the photo bucket link requested:
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b629/theshaddonose/IMG_2679_zpsce94ee8e.jpg
Yeah, it's a tough spot to be in with this old girl! It was a gift from my mom when I moved to get me going in my new state.
I know that nearly everything is original on my matador. There is a new air filter cover, and a new valve cover.
I am going to get the battery tested, and likely replaced tonight. I am hesitant to hook it back up until I know everything is set to go.
If there are any other photos you could need to help let me know. I'm not really a car guy, per say. But I have been in the crafts for many years. So I am at least not lost. I am really in a pinch and value your help greatly!
(This post was edited by theshaddonose on Nov 17, 2014, 2:21 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 17, 2014, 2:33 PM
Post #4 of 16
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Re: 1973 AMC Matador 6cyl, will not Start
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I'm not having any luck with the pics yet - others might. Try either copy + paste direct from Photo bucket either the picture(s) or copy/paste the link from your browser. It's just sending me to general Photobucket right now.
Hey - I mean it. With AMC in particular of all cars ever made you needed to know what month and what day sometimes they were made to know what AMC cobbled together for them. Add that model year 1973 had wild changes for all models. 5 MPH mandatory bumpers, emission controls coming up fast and strong too early to perfect for even then. A huge fuel crisis/shortage began as well.
Point is car makers were in turmoil and AMC took the cake/prize.
Don't hook up battery just yet at all till we or someone in person can tell you what has burned up.
For fun that festival in 1969 made world history - sex, drugs and rock and roll.............
>>> File pic may not show.........
 <<<
Life was good if you could remember it!
Tom
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Nov 17, 2014, 2:42 PM)
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theshaddonose
Novice
Nov 17, 2014, 3:17 PM
Post #5 of 16
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Re: 1973 AMC Matador 6cyl, will not Start
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Ok, a lot more vehicle info:
Make: AMC.
Model: Matador.
Year: 1973.
Transmission: Automatic column shift, 3-speed,
Series: Rebel, Matador 2-dr.
Body type: 4-Door.
Group: SST, AMX, Hornet, Javelin, Matador, Amabassador, Brougham, Pacer, Spirit, Concord.
Engine manufacturer: AMC 232 I6,
Engine type: spark-ignition 4-stroke,
Fuel system: carburetor
Charge system: naturally aspirated
Valves per cylinder: 2
Photos: (Hope it works!) http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/theshaddonose/library/?sort=3&page=1
Sadly, I wasn't at woodstock. I was born much later, I'm just a young guy with an appreciation for good old gear!
Thanks again for your help!
(This post was edited by theshaddonose on Nov 17, 2014, 3:20 PM)
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 17, 2014, 5:11 PM
Post #6 of 16
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Re: 1973 AMC Matador 6cyl, will not Start
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 17, 2014, 5:45 PM
Post #7 of 16
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Re: 1973 AMC Matador 6cyl, will not Start
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The red wire connected to the starter solenoid lug where the battery cable connects to is actually a fusible link. Might want to see if that link is broken. If it is broken/melted, it could be because you have a short to ground somewhere. You should follow the wire and inspect the harness it runs through to make sure it hasn't chaffed or burnt up on something metal.
You also might want to clean up the corrosion on the terminals and where the starter solenoid bolts to the fender.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Nov 17, 2014, 5:49 PM)
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theshaddonose
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Nov 17, 2014, 7:47 PM
Post #8 of 16
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Re: 1973 AMC Matador 6cyl, will not Start
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Thanks so much for your reply. I checked along the line and found a spot where it likely shorted out. I've cut the line and reconnected it using an insulated terminal. I've also checked and the battery is dead.
My thought is that with the short repaired and the battery replaced it might just come back to life. If the starter solenoid is dead and I replace the battery and reconnect it is there any risk to the new battery?
Again thank you so much for your help. I am in a bad spot and your help could very well be the thing that allows me to get back up on my feet.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 17, 2014, 8:53 PM
Post #9 of 16
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Re: 1973 AMC Matador 6cyl, will not Start
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Thanks to Hammer Time (HT) for making the pic show. OP (original poster) that red wire is no doubt fuse line wire and probably goes on to back of alternator. You should get same gauge fusible link wire and replace the length of it. I see duct tape on it now - no good like that.
It's corroded no surprise too so needs wire brushing up all connections as Discretesignals said (DS) but leave the NEGATIVE battery post disconnected FIRST and let it be the LAST thing back on when working on anything wiring.
The larger gauge wire you are holding is the positive cable going direct to the fender mounted solenoid and always has 12 volts to it and the wiring attached to that side of the solenoid so beware of that.
No surprise again those wires have been replaced over the years. Originals would have been red from the battery but again no telling what AMC did on some things - many were great running vehicles as vehicles just using parts from other mostly US auto makers.
"Did you kill new battery?" Dunno exactly what you did or if you left it hooked up too long. It may either have lost charge totally and come back or not well with a charge now if no response.
Some things you need will be some wire brushes, wire strippers or know how to and have tools for making wiring ends that are good generally soldered after stripped or well crimped. Basic stuff but you have to have it and know not to let them rub along a route too. There are kits for wiring that aren't too expensive for basic repairs. YOU decide how much you want to do or send out for the work as simple as this car really is tools and assorted things to work on it will add up fast in bucks if you never intend to do more assorted things with the tools on this car or anything.
Know that battery dirt is probably acid. When dry seems harmless then when wet again will make holes in your gloves or clothes or worse getting any in your eyes hence if brushing use goggles. Have baking soda around and can clean first with that.
For exact wire auto parts will have what you need. Much other stuff at most hardware stores if not automotive specific.
Back some on the thread: Is everything still dead with it all hooked up now? Does battery show any life with a voltmeter now which is yet another tool you should have.
If nothing at all you need to charge it while disconnected or have it charged. Last connection again is negative post to battery and if that reacts (sparks much or at all) don't connect it. When this car is OFF and all things OFF nothing is happening there normally.
If you hook up battery and things work and starter doesn't crank engine check that fender mounted solenoid. One smaller terminal is marked "S" for starter and just pushes on. May not be snug.
Could go on for days and already did. How far do you want to go with this on your own? It's basic stuff so far all around for most of the whole car.
I'll try to go look for specs for tune up for this engine if I still have this on paper books. Many web sites will call a 232 I-SIX expressed in liters not CUBIC INCH DISPLACMENT (CID) -- books will refer to the "I" which just means "in line" but folks would say a "straight" six also.
All of this in short is HOW MUCH OF THIS DO YOU WANT TO DO YOURSELF EVEN IF AS SIMPLE AS IT SHOULD BE?
Tom
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theshaddonose
Novice
Nov 18, 2014, 1:13 PM
Post #10 of 16
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Re: 1973 AMC Matador 6cyl, will not Start
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Thanks so much for your response! I have everything cleaned up and reconnected. The duck tape around the red wire was just covering the fuse portion of the fuse line. (Which checked out with a voltmeter) It also has that pink wire soldered on which is connected to the other... "thing" attached to the fender just below. I've got it wrapped in electrical tape and the harness wrapped back around it all again.
Once I got the good battery hooked up, life came back to the car. Int lights and indicator all light up. When I turned the ignition all that happened was a very rapid LOUD clicking. almost sounded like grinding. But it was definitely clicking.
I'm guessing its the starter solenoid. If not that then the starter itself. Does this sound right.
Again, I greatly appreciate all of your help!
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 18, 2014, 1:34 PM
Post #11 of 16
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Re: 1973 AMC Matador 6cyl, will not Start
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Solenoid? Not yet. It's a relay of sorts. Inside it's a plunger spring loaded to be disconnected to starter and if not enough amps from battery it will rapid fire like a machine gun rather than deliver low amps which is bad for motors such as a starter motor.
If it was bad it's not usually the way you described it and not that common really. You could with strong jumper cable (ONE) go from one side of that solenoid to the other which is then direct to starter and if you get a fast turning engine then solenoid is highly suspect. If starter slow not real conclusive.
For the moment it just seems low amps. When you can make sure the splices are correct and dump the electrical tape for real and proper gauge fusible link wire soldered in and shrink wrapped over that. Then use all the electrical tape you want to hold it out of harm's way.
Remember when fussing with wires to disconnect negative battery cable. Good thing to have is silicone or aka Dialectic (electrical grease) for electrical connections like at battery, the bolts and nuts all along cables and assorted other things and uses too.
It's old (so am I) it's needs and wants things lubed up like hood latch, door hinges and all that stuff that moves - WD-40 with a routine of it good for that stuff,
T
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theshaddonose
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Nov 18, 2014, 1:46 PM
Post #12 of 16
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Re: 1973 AMC Matador 6cyl, will not Start
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Thanks Tom!
I'll get that fuse link properly taken care of. Last thing I want is any more trouble.
So Just to be sure I get what you are saying. To test weather its the solenoid I take a single jumper wire (say just the negative one) and link the left and right lugs on the solenoid together. Essentially bypassing the solenoid and applying direct current? It the starter turns quickly it's likely the solenoid. But if it turns slowly it's probably something else? I.E. The starter motor itself?
You are really pulling my fat out of the fire as I am low on funds and cant afford to take it in at the moment. If you were near me I'd have to take you out for a few rounds!
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 18, 2014, 2:42 PM
Post #13 of 16
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Re: 1973 AMC Matador 6cyl, will not Start
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I'm more concerned you get the fusible links just right even though not this up front problem right now. They need to blow if needed not cause damage down the line.
Again, again. Low power to starter I'm near sure of. This car would take a jump start -- probably right now adding those amps I spoke of.
*************
General:
Low amps available you get the flutter and machine gun sounds, multiple clicks holding key in START position.
ONE snap click then nothing is usually a bad connection.
Nothing at all is dead battery or if anything works a bad connection even if battery is OK everything goes out while trying to crank.
Just remember that the starter is the total most power the battery will ever have to do vs lights and other shat in the thing same as about any vehicle.
Laugh - I'm flucking with one right now (battery) trying like hell to ever so slow trickly charge it to life for a friend and it takes forever that way but those work great sometimes. Not when you are in a hurry though. Dang - thought I said I was retired from this stuff except to confuse people here!
Tom
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theshaddonose
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Nov 18, 2014, 3:40 PM
Post #15 of 16
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Re: 1973 AMC Matador 6cyl, will not Start
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It's ALIVE! I used the trick you gave me and it turned nicely. It took a bit of gas pumping and running the starter. But it came to life! I let it run for a while, turned it off. Then it started without assistance!
I couldn't have have done it without you guys! Thanks to you all I can get to my new job which I start tomorrow! Beers all around if I could!
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 18, 2014, 4:51 PM
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Re: 1973 AMC Matador 6cyl, will not Start
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Yahooooo! Drinks on the house! Glad it's fixed for now. Here, have some fun graphics from when we (well, some of us) were totally nuts around here.............Brought to you by......
Top shelf please.......
Makes my "Kitty" go like this........
Keep this away though..........
Just to bug you.........
Swat that will you?
Good luck with it and hope it stays behaving for you,
Tom
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