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chuckdupp
User
Jan 2, 2017, 5:30 PM
Post #1 of 36
(4408 views)
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'69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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Hey yall,
I just acquired an old Ford in preeetty rough shape. I'm pretty sure its the 2.8 straight 6 motor, 3 on the floors.
Well, it ran pretty good for awhile, but would intermittently not wanna start, in which case I'd jump the solenoid. Fast forward a couple months, it won't idle. I start it up and unload a can on carb cleaner anywhere I can. Next time I go to start it, dash lights up but I only get one click when turning the key, just like when I used to jump from the solenoid before, but now that won't get it goin' either.
Have to let it sit for about another month.
Today, I replaced the battery, solenoid, and starter. Same thing, turn the key and I get lights, but that's it. Can anyone here point me in the right direction to gettin' this thing driving again?
It's pretty chewed up and has wires going EVERYWHERE. There's a cable coming off the alternator that I believe is just an extra ground. Pretty ratty car, painted matte black and first gear is top right
That being said, tons of character and fun to work on. I am in Brooklyn though and we have street cleaning so I need to get it going before I start gettin' tickets.
Any help much appreciated!
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jan 2, 2017, 6:22 PM
Post #2 of 36
(4401 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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Do you have a volt meter or 12 volt test light and know how to use them/it?
If so, make sure you have battery voltage sitting at the fender mounted solenoid stud that cable from the positive battery terminal attaches to while attempting to crank the engine. Make sure your meter or test light is grounded at the negative battery post.
let us know what you find out, so we can go to the next step.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jan 2, 2017, 6:24 PM)
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chuckdupp
User
Jan 2, 2017, 6:34 PM
Post #3 of 36
(4391 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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Hey thanks for the reply. I do not own a volt meter but I don't mind buying one. I've never used one but I'll figure it out. I'll definitely let yall know what I find out.
Pretty sure there's voltage up there though, cause If I do the screwdriver trick I get lots of sparks.
Thanks again!
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jan 2, 2017, 6:37 PM
Post #4 of 36
(4389 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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Are you taking the screwdriver shaft and creating a connection from the battery stud to the small S terminal on the solenoid? If you do that, you should hear the solenoid clacking.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jan 2, 2017, 6:40 PM)
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jan 2, 2017, 6:50 PM
Post #5 of 36
(4381 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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Just be careful when you bypass parts of the the starting system if someone isn't in the vehicle with their foot on the brake. If that vehicle has cobbled up wiring, someone may have bypassed the neutral safety switch. You don't want the vehicle starting up and taking off with you under the hood as it crashes into a dumpster two blocks down the street.
Even though that would make an interesting youtube video, don't want to see or hear about someone getting hurt.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jan 2, 2017, 6:53 PM)
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chuckdupp
User
Jan 2, 2017, 7:13 PM
Post #6 of 36
(4364 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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Yup! That's exactly what I was doing then the key ignition wasn't turning it over. I'd pop the hood and make a connection with a screwdriver shaft from the two points.
I believe I left out earlier that I also replaced the ignition switch and cylinder.
I'll try and take some photos of under the hood too if that would help. I mean this thing is really slapped together, but the engine ran great not long ago. I'd drive all over town and it would start right up. It does have a slow leak in the engine somewhere so I topped it off at some point. Don't think that could cause the problem but what do I know. Not a lot.
Ive managed to not crush myself or any dumpsters yet. Hope to keep it that way.
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chuckdupp
User
Jan 4, 2017, 9:48 PM
Post #7 of 36
(4310 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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Couldnt get anybody to help me do a light test, so I just tried cleaning all the connections to see if a short might be the problem. Well now when I try to attach the + cable I get mad sparks.
I disconnected the alternator and tried attaching the + cable, still strong sparks. I reconnected the alternator and disconnected the starter, weak sparks.
Only changes I made when cleaning the connections was I replaced the old weaved starter ground with a new 4 gauge cable and I replaced the engine block ground with a fresh cable.
Solenoid connection to the body is a little janky. Never did this until after I cleaned up the connections.
Everything is definitely hooked up just like it was before this started happening. Negative grounded to block, starter grounded to frame. Positive and alternator to solenoid, starter to solenoid. Not sure what I'm missing.
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chuckdupp
User
Jan 6, 2017, 7:15 PM
Post #8 of 36
(4279 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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Still no luck, tomorrow I'm gonna pick up some larger screws and try cleaning and remounting the solenoid better. Also gonna replace the solenoid -> starter cable.
In my other thread someone mention that the block should be grounded to the body. I have the battery to block, starter to body. Should I be running a cable straight from the block to body? and if so can I use the same connection as the battery to block?
Thanks!
bat/sol
starter ground
block ground
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Jan 6, 2017, 8:27 PM)
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jan 6, 2017, 7:45 PM
Post #9 of 36
(4266 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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Yes, the body can be grounded either to the battery or to the engine block. The engine block has to be grounded to the battery. Looks right in your pictures. Most people forget that the solenoid itself is grounded to the body. It important the solenoid bracket has a good clean connection to the fender.
What is up with the starter feed cable end at the fender mounted solenoid? Looks like it has broken strands right before it goes into the lug.
Those two small wires on the solenoid are connected correctly? One wire will have battery voltage on it only when the ignition is turned to start. That wire should be on the S terminal.
Does the solenoid click/clack when you turn the ignition to start?
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jan 6, 2017, 7:47 PM)
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jan 6, 2017, 7:58 PM
Post #10 of 36
(4256 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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Is that positive cable on the starter touching the body of the starter?
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jan 6, 2017, 8:07 PM
Post #11 of 36
(4247 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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Sure does look like it HT. That will burn up the cable for sure if it is touching when you go to crank on it. Hopefully the starter feed cable isn't laying on the homemade exhaust pipe either...lol
Is your block ground connection clean and tight? Looks like there is some black crud on it.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jan 6, 2017, 8:11 PM)
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chuckdupp
User
Jan 6, 2017, 8:12 PM
Post #12 of 36
(4239 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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OH! Good eye! It might be/probably is. A new 36" cable is on the list of things to pick up from Autozone tomorrow. Also some terminals for the wires that connect to the pins on the solenoid. Right now they're just wrapped and tightened down.
I'm still a little confused about the body ground. The cable I have from one of the starter bolts to the body, is that solid enough? Or should I have another another ground straight from the block to the body.
Thanks!
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jan 6, 2017, 8:16 PM
Post #13 of 36
(4236 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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Your ground is fine. Check the positive cable. If that is touching the body of the starter anywhere, that will be a dead short and likely to start a fire.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jan 6, 2017, 8:23 PM
Post #14 of 36
(4227 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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It's so crazy to see this old starting system and how simple it is and easy to diagnose. Actually kind of nice to run into these once in a while instead of these weird wacko intermittent drive-ability issues on today's stuff. You can actually diagnose that system with a 1157 bulb and some jumper wires.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jan 6, 2017, 8:27 PM)
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jan 6, 2017, 8:26 PM
Post #15 of 36
(4217 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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I'm going to delete those pictures because they are way too big and distorting the whole thread. Reduce the size if you post them again.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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chuckdupp
User
Jan 6, 2017, 8:28 PM
Post #16 of 36
(4211 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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yeah that must explain the crazy arcing I was getting when I try to connect the positive cable back to the battery post! and to answer discretesignals- Yup, before I cleaned the connections and changed any cables out and could get the positive cable connected without any arcing, when I turned the key or jumped the solenoid I'd get one clear "click".
(This post was edited by chuckdupp on Jan 6, 2017, 8:30 PM)
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jan 6, 2017, 8:30 PM
Post #17 of 36
(4202 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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You may still have something wired wrong at the solenoid because that wire at the starter is only hot is "start" position.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jan 6, 2017, 8:48 PM
Post #18 of 36
(4187 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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If that starter cable is shorting out, it would be the same as laying a wrench across the battery terminals when the solenoid latches. When you have that much current coming out of the battery, the voltage at the solenoid may drop low enough to make the solenoid unlatch which cuts the current from the short. It may make the cycle repeat itself until something gets really hot and burns up if you continue holding the ignition to start.
If you connect the starter feed cable directly to the battery post, you are going to see a whole lot of sparks and even more sparks and heat when the cable is shorted to ground. A starter like that on an old inline six can have up to 600 amps or more of in rush current. 600 amps is going to make a bunch of sparks. In rush is the amount of current it takes to get the starter to overcome the force it takes to get the crank to start spinning. Once the starter is going current is around 150-180 amps. As you can see when you have that much current running around any type of resistance is going to cause issues. That is why battery cables are so fat and need really good connections. Bad connections create heat and even more resistance.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jan 6, 2017, 9:00 PM)
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jan 6, 2017, 8:59 PM
Post #19 of 36
(4175 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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That cable from the starter goes all by itself to one side of the solenoid. The battery cable and all the other feed wires attach to the other side of the solenoid. The push on trigger wire goes to the "S" terminal. The other terminal is coil power out for starting.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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chuckdupp
User
Jan 8, 2017, 8:16 AM
Post #20 of 36
(4143 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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Okay so here's a little update. I was able to get the car to turn over with the help of a random old man named Julio. One of the many great things about NYC, people will just come over and give ya a hand.
Anyways, he was way less scared of the arcing than me and just held the cable on the post, it quickly stopped sparking and the starter was crankin'.
(Insert new problem.)
The key wasn't in the ignition......
I did replace the ignition switch and the key cylinder, but that was just plug and play.
Any advice on where to go from here?
(This post was edited by chuckdupp on Jan 18, 2017, 6:23 PM)
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jan 8, 2017, 8:46 AM
Post #21 of 36
(4132 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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If you keep letting random idiots play with your car, it's going to be the fire department that you need help from. Who knows what you have fried now.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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chuckdupp
User
Jan 16, 2017, 8:04 PM
Post #22 of 36
(4078 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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uhg still stumped on this one. cant figure out why im drawing power with the key out of the ignition. thought maybe the key cylinder was stuck so i put the old one back in, same crap.
just so weird cause it wasnt happening, then i cleaned all the grounds because i wasnt getting enough power to the starter. and now i have power without the key in the ignition.
ive looked at everything very closely and there arent any connections that shouldnt be there, ive replaced almost every cable to rule out a faulty cable.
ive compared my wiring to the solenoid with photos ive found online and they match up. im 100% positive everything is wired correctly.
only good thing is the starter is now getting enough power to engage as the car tries to start when the cable is held to the positive post.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jan 16, 2017, 8:13 PM
Post #23 of 36
(4074 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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Like you were advised a long time ago, it really looks like you have something wired wrong.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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chuckdupp
User
Jan 18, 2017, 6:03 PM
Post #24 of 36
(4032 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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Hmm, well found some time to trouble shoot this problem again. I disconnected the starter relay. Remounted it to a better looking spot above the wheel well. I connected the starter to the side of the relay closest to the back. I connect the brown wire to the "I" terminal and the other cable to the "S" terminal. I connect the "thick" black cable from the alternator, accessory cables (one yellow, one black with yellow stripe), and battery cable to the stud closest to the front.
Starter engages as soon as I touch cable to battery.
Switch the "S" and "I" wires so see if there was a mix up there.
Same thing, tries to start as soon as the cable touches the battery.
Get under the dash, pull the ignition switch out, still tries to start as soon as theres contact to the battery. Put old ignition switch in and pop the key cylinder in. Make sure its not in the accessory or start position. Same thing.
There are a couple splices. Would a bad splice to the ignition switch cause this? Since the power isn't making it there to be impeded or whatever?
(This post was edited by chuckdupp on Jan 18, 2017, 6:05 PM)
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jan 18, 2017, 6:08 PM
Post #25 of 36
(4024 views)
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Re: '69 Ford Falcon Wagon
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What happens when you disconnect both small wires?
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