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Can't put gas in the tank


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Edgebrook70
Novice

Sep 18, 2013, 7:04 AM

Post #1 of 18 (1858 views)
  post locked   Can't put gas in the tank  

Hello Friends,
Have a 2001 Nissan Frontier Pick Up, small 4-cyl. 110,000 miles. While filling the tank the gas splashes back out of the filler and the pump nozzle shuts off all the time, it take at least 5 minutes to put in 5 gallons of gas. Generally 4 gallons in the tank and 1 gallon on the ground. I have spent in excess of $1200 on this problem between a local mechanic and the dealer. The dealer now tells me that I need a new gas tank another $900.
Before this began, when you filled up the tank you could smell gas fumes for a few days until the tank got down to about 3/4 full. To solve the leaking gas fumes the upper filler was the first thing that was replaced in March 2013 $600. This is when it became difficult to put in any amount of gas as the gas would spit back at you while filling even at VERY slow fill rates. Next in September the Vent Control Valve was replaced $286. This was no help. Then the Shutter Valve was replaced $353. Again no help.
If any one can suggest anything to help me get some gas into this thing I would greatly appreciate it. I really do not have any confidence that spending another $900 on a new gas tank is the solution.
Thanks for your help
J.K.


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Sep 18, 2013, 8:37 AM

Post #2 of 18 (1843 views)
  post locked   Re: Can't put gas in the tank  

I couldn't know the layout of every particular gas tank but clearly any need to let the air/vapor above the existing fuel out for more to go in. It obviously can't do that.

Right where I am and other places the vapor is captured as you fill it right at the fuel nozzle and this one can't put that vapor to there at where the gas cap is.

Why this has cost so much and still a problem confuses me so far. Is the tank damaged in some way? Is the rusted badly or something all these efforts have missed?

You may have the wrong filler neck now somehow for all I know from the original problem with the odor when full. I just don't know why this is so difficult or expensive so will watch the thread,

T



Edgebrook70
Novice

Sep 18, 2013, 9:41 AM

Post #3 of 18 (1834 views)
  post locked   Re: Can't put gas in the tank  

Thanks for your input.
The tank is not damaged in any way, no rust no dents. This truck has been garage kept since new. The tank has been lowered and re-installed at least three times over the last year while installing the new parts. The only thing that was ever mentioned was that the new filler hose had a VENTURI of some type in the hose while the old one did not have a venturi. The replacement filler hose is confirmed as a genuine Nissan part. I have attempted to look at one of these hoses to see just what that venturi looks like but none are avaliable at any Chicago location and would need to be ordered from Nissan and special parts are non returnable. I just hate to buy the part just to take a look at it. Examining the filler hose that has been installed would require lowering or removal of the gas tank again. I just may have to try that myself, but like you I'm long retired now.
Thanks
JK


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Sep 18, 2013, 10:17 AM

Post #4 of 18 (1825 views)
  post locked   Re: Can't put gas in the tank  

Guesses as to what the events might have been. You first smelled the fuel and this is probably a separate filler neck that seals but some rubber type grommet at the tank where it enters and might have had a leak there but high enough that it didn't drip out as you mentioned 3/4 tank it would quit that.

The idea is as said already that the air has to come out somewhere and we know it isn't. That could be done with a hose up to near top of filler neck or inside the filler neck mostly unseen.

I have no clue but seems the odor was solved but now this venting problem arose. That could be the wrong filler neck? I have no clue how many versions might have been made for each and trucks can be funky as cars like perhaps there's a truck made for total off road and doesn't do it the same way like in case it tipped over.

Just think a bit: Have you ever put a funnel in something that was so tight you couldn't fill the container? Need to pull it back so the air can get out? That's the whole game here that is about certainly failing.

I think this just has the wrong filler neck but of course guessing. Bet if you just used a funnel allowing the air out it would fill up slow as that would be.

Can the wrong parts be in the right box happen. Too much if you ask me.

Used will be trouble in the Chicago area with mostly lousy old vehicles for parts - I'm West of Boston and non garaged cars go fast to rust if used when they salt the roads. Not much good for this used here if at all.

Still guessing but there might have been a California mandated design vs once the other 49 states and fuel vapor was a concern for quite a while, universal now.

I say this is plain wrong parts for the exact truck and nobody is noticing but you keep paying dammit.

*********************************

Side topic but was once a gas jockey and you got to know characters of models of vehicles. Some you just couldn't go full speed and knew it or got a face full as it neared full!

If gas tanks were a bladder if you will this wouldn't be the issue but they are solid as we know so need that venting.

Again, I don't know why this has been so difficult to figure out,

T



Edgebrook70
Novice

Sep 18, 2013, 11:55 AM

Post #5 of 18 (1813 views)
  post locked   Re: Can't put gas in the tank  

Problem half way solved!!!!
It is quite common for these older Nissan pickups to have the gas odor when the trucks are over 10 years old as the upper most filler, the first few inches where you insert the gas pump nozzle, were made of metal and rusted as time went by. Now the replacement part is ALL plastic outside with a metal insert.
Following your excellent advice I crawled under there to see what I could see and there are 2 small hoses coming off the top of the tank and terminating about 2 inches down from the gas cap. They are attached to the new filler hose which has a diameter just slightly larger than a pump nozzle. Logically there should be 2 Small Holes on the upper portion of the new filler hose inside the new filler hose to act as vents. Otherwise these 2 hoses terminate and go nowhere.
The new filler hose is as I said all plastic, about 7 inches long with the 2 small plastic tubes attached and running down the side. I removed the hoses that were attached to the plastic tubes and went to my local Shell station and for the first time in a year put in 11gallons non stop at full flow. OK it's a defective part but I really can't see driving 90 miles out to the guy who installed it. He's just going to argue with me just like the last time when I told him that I couldn't put any gas in the truck. Tomorrow I will remove the new filler tube myself and see if I can open those holes. Just can't imagine how I'm going to drill holes 2inches down the tube from the inside. A replacement is avaliable from Nissan for just over $150 but will take a few days to get. So if I can't repair this one I'll just order another and do the install MYSELF. Thanks again JK


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Sep 18, 2013, 1:38 PM

Post #6 of 18 (1810 views)
  post locked   Re: Can't put gas in the tank  

Cool bean from Boston as they sayCool

You found it - they fricked up not finding it all that time and $$ and just as thought not right venting. Arggh - I'll sic Kitty on 'em if you want!

None of this was rocket science. So glad you found it on your own.

Note: If that pipe fits into a rubber ring if whole unit is coming do not lube it?! Just clean and if anything just a spit of ..... well spit! All that fuss that should have been just done and over the first time you had a complaint. That is not the rule in this profession despite the rumors.

Good luck when new part comes in,

Tom



Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Sep 18, 2013, 4:35 PM

Post #7 of 18 (1803 views)
  post locked   Re: Can't put gas in the tank  


Quote
Logically there should be 2 Small Holes on the upper portion of the new filler hose inside the new filler hose to act as vents. Otherwise these 2 hoses terminate and go nowhere.



Wrong. Those hoses are for the vapor recovery system. You have a blockage in the EVAP system somewhere. When you disconnected the hoses, it allowed the tank to vent, so you could put gas in. You need to find out what is causing the blockage. There are already holes in the neck for those two hoses.

Try disconnecting the evap vapor line that comes from the tank at the evap canister and see if it will refuel without spitting back. When you pull the line from the canister make sure it isn't full of charcoal.







Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.

(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Sep 18, 2013, 4:37 PM)


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Sep 19, 2013, 1:00 AM

Post #8 of 18 (1793 views)
  post locked   Re: Can't put gas in the tank  

I don't get how that is the problem DS but all ears. In MA all gasoline pumps suck the vapors out as fuel goes in right then and there. If that snorkel of the filler nozzle at the pump isn't pushed tight it will not dispense fuel at all.

That such that if filling a plain gas can you have to hold the pumps seal back for now unvented gas cans - nothing to do with a vehicle.

Would be the same bull filling a water bottle, no vapor out no product in,

T



Edgebrook70
Novice

Sep 19, 2013, 4:21 AM

Post #9 of 18 (1760 views)
  post locked   Re: Can't put gas in the tank  

Hello,
Thank you so much for the schematic drawing of the fuel fill system. It really helps me understand where everything is supposed to go.
Now just for a moment lets examine your drawings, focusing on the SIGNAL LINE and the RECIRCULATION LINE. In your comment you mention that " THERE ARE ALREADY HOLES IN THE NECK FILLER NECK FOR THOSE TWO HOSES".
I do not not mean to be rude but since you already mentioned that "I was was wrong" I will tell you very clearly that without a doubt YOU are the one that is mistaken. THERE ARE NO HOLES IN THE FILLER NECK FOR THESE LINES. THIS IS A DEFECTIVE PART OR THE WRONG PART that has already cost me $600 to install.. The plastic tubes that are attached to the new filler hose palstic lines terminate just a little lower than the gas cap, but they have nowhere to go. There are no holes in the boot therefore there is no venting. The filler hose has been confirmed as a Genuine Nissan part but I guess even Genuine Nissan gets it wrong once in a while.
This is a wonerful forum and I truly appreciate all the responses to my dilemma

Thanks for your reply
JK


Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Discretesignals profile image

Sep 19, 2013, 4:41 AM

Post #10 of 18 (1758 views)
  post locked   Re: Can't put gas in the tank  

The venting of the tank when refilling goes out the canister vent. The fumes in the tank are pushed into the charcoal canister to be stored until the computer opens the purge valve while the engine is running. This is why on modern EVAP systems the vent valve is always open.

Gas vapors don't get vented out the filler neck. The onboard vapor recover system pulls the vapors into the tank during refueling.

If you think there are not holes in the filler neck, blow into the tubes the hoses connect to with the gas cap off.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Sep 19, 2013, 9:41 AM

Post #11 of 18 (1741 views)
  post locked   Re: Can't put gas in the tank  

I apologize DS and do NOT question your info or knowledge especially for a specific vehicle. My only point was this started with apparently a fuel leak or just seepage then the problems. How vented properly this or that way not my own point rather just that it wasn't happening.

Again - Don't know the locations but exactly where I am there is wild suction from a snorkel on the filler pump itself. The idea is whatever vapors happen get sucked thru the gas station's system not just allowed out.

That's where the gas can (no a car at all) problem comes in with the vacuum snorkel thing/idea. You can defeat that using two hands and have to for some plain gas cans!

Understood and was done ages ago - like early 1970s to have the vapors go thru the charcoal canister and be caught there for burning later when vehicle is started and timing is right.

That vapor with wild temp swings in a car switches just sitting there in volume/pressure or vacuum by the day's temps.

What always was on my mind is when they fill the tanker that brings in the fuel where are those vapors going, then again when you fill a delivery truck. The millions of gallons in storage to fill those trucks I believe put a rubber blanket on top of fuel to not lose too much that they could sell as by nature gasoline needs to be quite volatile.

It's a side topic but what a waste to worry so much engineering and regulating the cars.

True story: Mega thousands of gas leaked out to ground at a gas station not far from me. Panic sets in. Had to take all the dirt down 30 feet and haul it away. What do they do with it? Fluff it up away from a populated area and let it all evaporate! Now you can use it again!

Back: You are right DS no surprise it needs to be done properly and get rid of known rusted part if only a short bit of it so this poor person can just fill up a gas tank!

True that if this is filling up the canister there are more problems to tend to! Yikes!

T

T



Edgebrook70
Novice

Sep 24, 2013, 6:59 AM

Post #12 of 18 (1715 views)
  post locked   Re: Can't put gas in the tank  

Took the new filler neck off on Sunday and as I expected one of the 2 lines was completely blocked. The other small diameter line was open and air would flow through without restriction. First tried to rod out the line with a thin copper wire, however there were too many bends in the tube to get all the way through. Next took a 1/8 drill and drilled through the small tube into the filler hose neck, sealed up the drill hole with duct tape. Now everything is venting, but I don't need gas so will just have to wait a few days and see if my fix worked.
JK


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Sep 24, 2013, 7:38 AM

Post #13 of 18 (1713 views)
  post locked   Re: Can't put gas in the tank  

JK - Trusting you to use all good judgment as this is all right in front of you, the parts and situation. It must work as intended and be safe. Duh - it's fuel. Duct tape to seal a hole is not anything close to tolerate even fuel vapors. There are putty sealers that are specifically made to tolerate fuel.

Just curious now. What was blocking a tube? What kind of debris? Rust bits or a mud of rust? If so this problem may return. PLEASE KEEP IN MIND THAT FUEL AS A VAPOR IS A TOTAL HAZARD! It's parked in a garage so this matters a lot and would anyway,

Tom



Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Sep 24, 2013, 7:47 AM

Post #14 of 18 (1708 views)
  post locked   Re: Can't put gas in the tank  


Quote
sealed up the drill hole with duct tape.


SERIOUSLY? ............. SERIOUSLY?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Discretesignals profile image

Sep 24, 2013, 3:58 PM

Post #15 of 18 (1701 views)
  post locked   Re: Can't put gas in the tank  

One EVAP code coming right up....





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.


nickwarner
Veteran / Moderator
nickwarner profile image

Sep 25, 2013, 3:10 AM

Post #16 of 18 (1695 views)
  post locked   Re: Can't put gas in the tank  

One thing that works great to get off duct tape adhesive is gasoline. Not a good move. If you have emissions testing where you live you are now going to fail because you will have an EVAP code.


Edgebrook70
Novice

Oct 6, 2013, 6:00 AM

Post #17 of 18 (1671 views)
  post locked   Re: Can't put gas in the tank  

  OK, the duct tape was a temporary fix just to see if my drilling a hole in the recirculation line into the filler neck would solve the problem, it did. This Genuine Nissan part was $600 to install and it us was defective as only one of the two re-circ lines was open. It took me all of 7 minutes to remove the filler neck and I will take it off again and seal up the hole with an appropriate sealer. There are only 3 screws and 3 hose clamps holding this whole thing in place.
This truck passed Emissions testing here in Illinois a few months ago with the original problem of gasoline odor when you topped off the tank, so something was venting at that time, that's why I started this repair process, but it Passed testing. This truck is 13 years old and will not be due for another Emissions test for 2 more years and I'll deal with any emission issues at that time if I still own this thing.
Thank you everybody for you comments, consider this problem solved at this time.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Oct 6, 2013, 6:16 AM

Post #18 of 18 (1670 views)
  post locked   Re: Can't put gas in the tank  

Closed as solved



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.







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