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Replacing LIM gaskets on 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m


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tokyo67
Novice

Mar 25, 2014, 6:52 PM

Post #1 of 20 (1060 views)
Replacing LIM gaskets on 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m Sign In

Hello,
This is my first time here so please forgive me if I posted this in the wrong section. I couldn't find a way to search the site for info on this topic. If anyone has any information on this topic or could guide me in the right place to discuss this I would greatly appreciate it! I have a 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m, and I am replacing the lower intake manifold gaskets. The car has 175k on it but it runs strong, always has. I was wondering about the need to replace the fuel injectors while I was at it since its all apart anyways. But didn't know if I should bother since its runs super. Gets on it when I hit the pedal. From what I can see inside with the LIM removed there is some carbon but not excessive especially considering the mileage. The gaskets that were on there are felpro, the older plastic ones. The new ones going in are the felpro metal style. I am going to use a tool to remove the push rods without having to take off the rocker arms so I can expedite the process. Any tips on cleaning the inside, like the valve ports, and water passages, and solvents to avoid, also cleaning the injectors? they are attached to the rails as I saw no need to remove them. This is my first time doing a project of this magnitude and any tips and suggestions are greatly needed and much appreciated. Oh the reason for the repair is obviously coolant loss and overheating. Though it never actually overheated I would shut it down before it started going past half on the temp gauge. Thanks, Jay


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Mar 25, 2014, 7:17 PM

Post #2 of 20 (1051 views)
Re: Replacing LIM gaskets on 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m Sign In

We don't generally do anything with the injectors when replacing the gasket if they are not suspect for anything. You really don't want to do too much cleaning in there either except for the gasket surfaces. If there is any sludge in there, you really don't want to loosen it up to float around the engine.

Be very carfull not to mix up the pushrods. The intake and exhaust are slightly different in length.



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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 25, 2014, 11:40 PM

Post #3 of 20 (1039 views)
Re: Replacing LIM gaskets on 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m Sign In

With Hammer Time on this. As far as solvents and cleaners they scare me. For oiled area showing evidence like sludge I suggest just assertively changing oil quite early and often and let the oil do what it does it' also a cleaner itself that just doesn't like heat or being late to change.


Beware of product claims for magic fixes. Most are both a waste of $$ and risk of harm not a fix. Just correct products tended to on time as should be suggested in owner's manual,


T



nickwarner
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Mar 26, 2014, 12:14 AM

Post #4 of 20 (1035 views)
Re: Replacing LIM gaskets on 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m Sign In

Not a bad idea to use a brush and solvent to clean the bores the injectors go in. If there is any dirt in there it can tear the injector o-rings on reassembly and you will have a vacuum leak at that cylinder. Also, your kit should have new injector o-rings. Make sure you install them. Before putting them in lube them to prevent tearing and make them go in nice and easy. I use a 50/50 mix of Permatex Engine Assembly Lube ( a thick red liquid a lot of people use when installing camshafts) and engine oil. Started using it a few years back when I did injectors on a Cat diesel. Cat dealer told me that was what they called for for the o-rings, and the stuff worked so well I use it on most any o-ring now. Never had a tear on one yet.

While you have all that apart already you may want to pop off the IAC motor and clean its bore out, along with cleaning the carbon off of the backside of the throttle plate. An old toothbrush and some carb cleaner work well for that.

As HT and Tom mentioned, not a good plan to clean the intake runners as it could cause a bunch to get dislodged at one time once the engine gets running. No fun then.


Hammer Time
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Mar 26, 2014, 2:23 AM

Post #5 of 20 (1031 views)
Re: Replacing LIM gaskets on 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m Sign In

If i remember right, you shouldn't have to disturb the injectors in any way. If you do remove them from their ports, then follow Nick's instructions but i don't think you will have to touch them at all.



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tokyo67
Novice

Mar 26, 2014, 8:04 AM

Post #6 of 20 (1022 views)
Re: Replacing LIM gaskets on 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m Sign In

Thanks to everyone for your prompt and thorough responses. I am lucky in that there is no engine sludge. There is some dexcool sludge in one of the water ports. I had to remove the injectors, or at least that's what the book said and that's what it looked like. The guy I had do this several years ago used a felpro gasket though it was plastic, but obviously didn't use any Loctite on the bolts as they were dang near loose when I went to remove the LIM. The felpro kit I bought doesn't have injector O-rings, though it seems to have every other one. I have fashioned a piece of pipe which allows me to compress the rocker arms so I can just pull the rods out without having to take it all apart and then reinstall and adjust. This new felpro kit is a metal gaskest with some kind of silicone type material that seals the ports. Not sure if the old gasket failed, I think it was because the bolts were no longer tight. I am going to make sure I apply the Loctite. I do have some of that red lube as my dad just rebuilt his 305 and he got some from the machine shop that redid the heads and block. Thanks again to everyone!


Hammer Time
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Mar 26, 2014, 3:00 PM

Post #7 of 20 (1014 views)
Re: Replacing LIM gaskets on 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m Sign In

Loctite isn't necessary if the bolts are torqued properly.

You aren't saving yourself much by using that tool. They aren't adjustable anyway. They just get torqued down.



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nickwarner
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Mar 26, 2014, 10:29 PM

Post #8 of 20 (1004 views)
Re: Replacing LIM gaskets on 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m Sign In

Since you have pulled the injectors, swing into the parts house and grab o-rings. They do sell them separately so not much money and worth not revisiting later. You have the lube, just water it down 50/50 with motor oil first. You'll like it. Another nice 50/50 mix for a good penetrating oil is acetone and ATF. Beats out PB Blaster and WD surprisingly and cheap to make. Get a reusable spray car that uses compressed air for propellant.

As HT pointed out, your rockers are not adjustable. Lisle makes a tool to get the pushrods off without pulling the rockers, but you have gone and made one and if it is working for you thats money in the bank. Good job.

Make sure not to overtorque the bolts and to go in proper sequence as you do it. Plenly of people do too much and it is just as bad as too loose.


Hammer Time
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Mar 27, 2014, 2:37 AM

Post #9 of 20 (1000 views)
Re: Replacing LIM gaskets on 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m Sign In

I'm not sure what Nick wants you to use that oil mix for but I recommend using sil-glide or any silicone base grease for the o-rings. Petroleum and rubber don't mix well. it eats the rubber. Clean and lube the seat good and lube the o-ring before inserting the injector.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Discretesignals
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Mar 27, 2014, 4:55 AM

Post #10 of 20 (996 views)
Re: Replacing LIM gaskets on 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m Sign In

I personally wouldn't use sil-glide or any silicone type based grease on something like injector o rings. O2 sensors can be damaged by the silicone. It doesn't take very much.

I use 525 mineral oil to lubricate them.

I also use anaerobic gasket maker on the lower four corner intake bolt threads, so oil doesn't leak up from them.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.

(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Mar 27, 2014, 4:59 AM)


Hammer Time
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Mar 27, 2014, 1:48 PM

Post #11 of 20 (988 views)
Re: Replacing LIM gaskets on 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m Sign In

Now you're nit picking.



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tokyo67
Novice

Apr 1, 2014, 12:07 AM

Post #12 of 20 (970 views)
Re: Replacing LIM gaskets on 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m Sign In

Well I successfully changed the LIM gasket. Man I was proud too because this is the first major project I have ever attempted. The car started right up, then I noticed coolant spraying out from under the head somewhere and getting all over the radiator. Grrrr. I had a feeling I should have pulled the heads and taken them to have them resurfaced. Question now is should I have them pressure tested and checked for cracks. I pulled it all back apart today all except the heads, I noticed my new spark plugs have a rusty color to them. Going to pull the heads later this morning I guess I will see then if there is coolant in the cylinders. Something told me to pull the heads and have them resurfaced while I had it apart the first time. The plus side is I was able to tear it all down in a couple hours today, so I am getting good at that. I have had the car since it had 40k miles so doing these repairs makes sound sense since I am sure I can get to 250k. Again thanks for all your advise. This site is amazing, but only because of all you good people who share your time and experience with newbs like me.


Hammer Time
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Apr 1, 2014, 3:02 AM

Post #13 of 20 (957 views)
Re: Replacing LIM gaskets on 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m Sign In

I'm confused here................ I thought you had a good running car that you were changing the intake manifold gaskets?

What do the heads have to do with that job and why are they even suspect now if they weren't before the job?



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



tokyo67
Novice

Apr 1, 2014, 3:06 AM

Post #14 of 20 (955 views)
Re: Replacing LIM gaskets on 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m Sign In

I used the red cam shaft lube to coat the injector O-rings before putting them back in. Hope that wasn't a mistake. They seemed to be in great shape especially considering their age, still soft.


tokyo67
Novice

Apr 1, 2014, 3:23 AM

Post #15 of 20 (954 views)
Re: Replacing LIM gaskets on 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m Sign In

It is was and still runs great. But after replacing the LIM gasket I noticed coolant spraying from under the head out towards the radiator. Warped head most likely. So I am pulling the heads today and am going to get them to the machine shop hopefully this week. Was wondering though if I should have them pressure test them for cracks or just resurface them. The car never got super hot, not enough to crack (I think)...(I Hope!). So YES now I realize I should have done it all from the beginning but I am an oil change, tune up guy who decided to take this project on so my greenness is shinning through, but I learn from my mistakes. I sure appreciate all your knowledge and willingness to share. Thanks, will be checking back throughout the day! I also have to fence off a new section to separate pregnant mama sow from her 4 other 6 month old babies and big daddy boar. I will have the heads off today, though I may not be able to get them to the shop until later in the week. 75$ each to jet wash and resurface. 90$ to add the pressure test. The inside of the intake looked great, no pitting or corrosion, so maybe the heads will look as good, though I doubt cracks in the heads come from corrosion but rather heat. Then again I am the newb. Thanks Hammer


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Apr 1, 2014, 3:29 AM

Post #16 of 20 (951 views)
Re: Replacing LIM gaskets on 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m Sign In


Quote
It is was and still runs great. But after replacing the LIM gasket I noticed coolant spraying from under the head out towards the radiator.



And you are still making no sense................


If you didn't have a head leak before, why do you have one now? Was this a misdiagnosis from the beginning and the leak was always there.
I have never seen a 3.1 spray coolant from the heads. look at that again.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



tokyo67
Novice

Apr 1, 2014, 3:37 AM

Post #17 of 20 (949 views)
Re: Replacing LIM gaskets on 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m Sign In


In Reply To
Since you have pulled the injectors, swing into the parts house and grab o-rings. They do sell them separately so not much money and worth not revisiting later. You have the lube, just water it down 50/50 with motor oil first. You'll like it. Another nice 50/50 mix for a good penetrating oil is acetone and ATF. Beats out PB Blaster and WD surprisingly and cheap to make. Get a reusable spray car that uses compressed air for propellant.

As HT pointed out, your rockers are not adjustable. Lisle makes a tool to get the pushrods off without pulling the rockers, but you have gone and made one and if it is working for you thats money in the bank. Good job.

Make sure not to overtorque the bolts and to go in proper sequence as you do it. Plenly of people do too much and it is just as bad as too loose.






The injector rings were in great shape.. Luckily I have an o-ring kit that had one just the right size. And also luck that I had 2 plug wires crossed and the car didn't start, so when I looked in I saw gas all over the place where it was squirting out from the fuel rail where the line went in. So at least my car didn't catch on fire!


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Apr 1, 2014, 3:56 AM

Post #18 of 20 (946 views)
Re: Replacing LIM gaskets on 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m Sign In

OK - I'm confused - alone no surprise on that.


Take me back. This just successfully got a new lower intake manifold job so it sounds and now spraying coolant out and I'm not convinced from where yet.


If all else is well find out where the coolant is really coming from. Pressure test it, blow it dry or wipe off source area while it's all together to know for sure not guess up to a cracked head! Find these things before taking things apart not after as much as possible.


What other cooling system/carrying part is near where the evidence is? This could be a radiator hose or other anything that seals coolant just making a near invisible fish line squirt AT SOMETHING ELSE. If something like that is possible put paper or something in between to verify. Easy to get fooled by those. I don't know why you would just do manifold work if this was there before. Just all the fussing around could have caused a hose to do this or coincidence with the work?


Check harder on that, T



Hammer Time
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Apr 1, 2014, 5:14 AM

Post #19 of 20 (939 views)
Re: Replacing LIM gaskets on 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m Sign In

No, I'm guessing he has a rotted freeze plug.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Apr 1, 2014, 5:31 AM

Post #20 of 20 (935 views)
Re: Replacing LIM gaskets on 96 olds 3.1 v6 vin m Sign In

Well that would sure explain it. If so hope it somehow picked on just one easy one.


OP - verify that and if one that is way too hard there are some very permanent (for the one) ways to fix them frequently without taking old one out all depending on just how it failed. Rusted from outside or inside will matter and hope it's from outside or IMO you can't trust any of them anywhere and they are all over places you just are NOT going to get at without some antics you wont like,


T







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