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CAR STALLED IN WATER HOLE


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dolejaly
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Jul 29, 2012, 12:53 PM

Post #1 of 36 (1952 views)
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During a bad rain/hail storm I hit a water hole about 10inches deep(a guess)...The car stalled in the middle of it, it was too late to do anything once I hit it. I did try to restart it to pull it out, just rolled over consistantly. Some guys pushed me out of the water hole in front of their business, had a tow truck tow the car home. I have not attempted to start the car since it happened 2 days ago. I was told to pull spark plugs and chk oil for water, the oil was not milky...Unable to check the plugs. It's a 98 Chrystler sebring..2.5....When the tow truck lifted the front end water did drain out from different places, and it did have a consistant roll over at the time just no spark to fire up. Should I attempt to just try and start it now after 2 days later with out being able chk the plug wires? Also when it was in the water it smelled of rotten eggs, what does that mean?


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Jul 29, 2012, 2:35 PM

Post #2 of 36 (1919 views)
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You still need to pull the plugs and get any water out of the cylinders. Pull the air filter out and see if it is soaked too. The you might want to use a blow dryer to dry it out but you may have already ruined some computers.




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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



dolejaly
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Jul 29, 2012, 3:02 PM

Post #3 of 36 (1905 views)
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I just attempted to start it...checked and No water in oil,tranny fluid and air filter is completely dry...It rolls over consistantly,and did act like it wanted to start a couple of times. But after shutting off the key, it had like almost a over run a little bit. Also timing belt is working as well....can not get plug wire off to chk plugs. Would it attempt to start if there was water in the plugs? and if a car is hydro-locked would it even roll over?


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Jul 29, 2012, 3:23 PM

Post #4 of 36 (1900 views)
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It's not hydro=locked but the plugs could be water fouled and preventing them from firing. Use the blow dryer.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



dolejaly
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Jul 29, 2012, 7:21 PM

Post #5 of 36 (1887 views)
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The plugs are getting spark...So what is there left it could be why it won't fire up? fuel pump is also working...


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Jul 30, 2012, 2:14 AM

Post #6 of 36 (1870 views)
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How can you know plugs are getting spark and jumping a gap if you can't get the plug wire(s) off to inspect, dry or replace them? This is water damage/ingestion and an assortment of things could have happened.

Time is of the essence and if you can't pin this down to what is missing to make it run get help. Water situation of the sort could do about anything so rule out for certain one thing at a time.

Engines get declared total losses over things like this,

T
_________________________________________
Long retired now


Discretesignals
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Jul 30, 2012, 7:51 PM

Post #7 of 36 (1848 views)
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Did you even attempt to crank it over with the plugs out to purge the water out of the cylinders?





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Jul 30, 2012, 7:56 PM

Post #8 of 36 (1842 views)
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No, he kept ignoring us on that.




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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Discretesignals
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Jul 30, 2012, 8:06 PM

Post #9 of 36 (1837 views)
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Well, if he kept cranking on it, I'm sure instead of having a 3.29 inch bore and 2.99 inch stroke, it now has a 3.29 inch bore and 2.00 inch stroke.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Jul 30, 2012, 8:07 PM

Post #10 of 36 (1831 views)
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Apparently it's too much work to access the rear plugs.

According to him the air filter was dry so if that is true, he's probably OK but I find that hard to believe.




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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Jul 30, 2012, 8:12 PM)


dolejaly
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Jul 31, 2012, 9:37 AM

Post #11 of 36 (1814 views)
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OK....Here's the update....Had it towed the a local garage...They stated no water got in the engine. But, they state the motor is toast. They couldn't get it to fire up either. They also, never removed the spark plug, said that there was no signs of internal water and stated it would have never rolled over consistant as it was if there was water inside. They are saying that it's the lower end of the motor, crank or rods...that the engine is shot. They said there was no compression and they used a stethascope and said where as it sounded like it wanted to fire up that the noise was coming from lower end and didn't sound good at all....They said the car wasn't worth replacing motor either.....P.S...I'm a she...LOL...I don't know if I take stock in what there saying, the mechanic could be correct, but it sounded like it jumped timing to me when we did try to start it....He told me it was pure chance that I hit the water hole and the lower end of the motor went out at the same time...


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Jul 31, 2012, 10:17 AM

Post #12 of 36 (1808 views)
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And what would any of these findings have to do with hitting water?




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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



dolejaly
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Jul 31, 2012, 11:33 AM

Post #13 of 36 (1802 views)
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exactly! All these problems happened after I hit the water hole. I guess what am saying, although I am not a mechanic and female(LOL)....and what the mechanic from the garage told me that the motor was shot, they said the lower end of the motor with a stethascope rattled(they never got it started either), but that sound of wanting to fire up that either rods or crank was shot. The car initially prior to the water hole did have some ticking sounds, (lifters)..They never removed or checked the spark plugs to see if its moister, maybe water didn't get inside the motor itself and they state no water did, but how can they do a compression test with out removing spark plugs? I just don't want to throw in the towel yet, just a gut feeling they didn't really check it out. It just didn't sound right to me. What about a crank sensor, could it be it got wet and that causing the car to turn over good, but not start but act like it wants to start. when shutting off the key, it reminds me of when a car sounds like the timing is off, or a diesal.....I am open to any questions that I may have not described so far. But, it doesn't sound to me that the water hole didn't initally do something, wether it be just moisture. The air filter was completely dry, but that was checking it 2 days later, and I was told that there was no signs of water marks to show it was wet at all.....


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Jul 31, 2012, 11:36 AM

Post #14 of 36 (1799 views)
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I tend to agree with you. The lower end didn't go without making an awful lot of noise first.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



dolejaly
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Jul 31, 2012, 11:41 AM

Post #15 of 36 (1795 views)
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So can they run a compression test with out removing the spark plugs? As they stated there was no compression and could a bad crank sensor act in the same manner?


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Jul 31, 2012, 11:56 AM

Post #16 of 36 (1793 views)
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Hey - gender has nothing to do with this! This so called compression test without removing spark plugs is interesting - not.

Trying to imagine this surprise event and no doubt all so fast could easily miss wild knocks of breaking parts. Moisture evidence? Was a warmed up engine so much may have boiled off or even all of it dried out -- hard to know. Inside if it got into cylinders might, only might as it has been cranked over now since show some gun rust or cracks/holes in pistons or cylinder walls but all of them? Not so sure.

In short I'm not so sure about this diagnosis yet,

T
_________________________________________
Long retired now


Discretesignals
Veteran / Moderator


Jul 31, 2012, 11:59 AM

Post #17 of 36 (1790 views)
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Yes, you can actually. You can do a relative compression test using the starter current and a scope, but it won't give you any pressure readings unless you have a general idea what the waveform should look like. Most shops use a regular compression gauge which requires removing the spark plugs for readings.

I agree that you should get a second opinion. This is just a theory, but it's possible that your timing belt is off mark if water gets in there and causes the belt to lift up off the sprockets. Water doesn't compress and can get between the belt and sprocket and cause the belt to jump.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.

(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jul 31, 2012, 12:03 PM)


dolejaly
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Jul 31, 2012, 7:57 PM

Post #18 of 36 (1770 views)
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I'm still looking into it. The same mechanic at this garage told me that the car wasn't worth fixing that the frame was shot as well....which it is a 1998, so wouldn't surprise me,but before the car was lowered off the tow truck when it came back home I asked the 2 guys from the towing company to look and see if the frame or underneath of the car was basically rusted out to the point that I shouldn't try repairing or replacing the motor and both said that there was nothing wrong with the frame or underneath, so my point being is I am really doubting the mechanics expertise at this point, I guess just call it a gut instinct....I'm going to see about getting a 2nd oppinion if I can to see if this motor is toast.

I really appreciate all of your guys input, it helps me out a lot. Thanks .....


nickwarner
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Jul 31, 2012, 8:31 PM

Post #19 of 36 (1763 views)
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From what you're saying I think a second opinion is more than warranted. DS did point out a way to get a general idea of compression with an O-scope but I somehow doubt this guy did that at all.


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Aug 1, 2012, 7:03 AM

Post #20 of 36 (1753 views)
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It needs the second opinion to condemn this with any and all things/ways to determine damage. Starter was probably submerged so its ability to crank engine is in question. If wet inside who knows where current would flow thru it while cranking?

Just cranking if even close to a normal crank speed would sound wrong without devices or tricks. What is manifold vacuum while cranking? Does the flow of vapor come out the tailpipe flow out and not moments of sucking back in.

Actual compression test would also give a view of at least the physical condition of the plugs still yet to be done and people are damning this to hopelessly beyond repair so far?!

Stinks but would have been better if the water it suffered was deeper and cracked the engine wide open with parts showing and know it's "game over" but it just isn't known yet IMO,

T
_________________________________________
Long retired now


dolejaly
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Aug 1, 2012, 11:56 PM

Post #21 of 36 (1737 views)
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BRIEF UPDATE: As of yesterday, the car was towed back home, nothing was looked at until today(WED). Well, to my surprise 2 of my plug wires were mangled, one looks like it was pulled so hard it cut off....Of course the rubber boots were still connected and spark plugs never removed...But, obviously prior to the car going to the garage none of my plug wires were like this, we couldn't get the wires removed, that was one of our issues, I was told you needed a certain tool for removing the plug wires, so we didn't want to break them, figuring the garage had the tools to do all that and would chk the plugs...Also, the roll over as I described earlier in my posts was just fine,(no signs of starter issues) but i had my nephew offer to try and check the spark plugs(thats how all this got noticed)....when trying to let him hear what the car is doing while trying to start it the starter or cylanoid made a zing sound( I really wonder now what the mechanics done to this car)......

Anyways, he removed 3 spark plugs(front 3 that were easiest to remove and we did the starting technics of quick on the key to see if any water pushed out and none did, but it sounded like it wanted to fire up quicker on 3 cyl rather than 6(strange)....I bought new plugs/wires and we did only replace the front 3 to see if that made a difference and it is rolling over good, but has that sound as if it wants to start, but yet sounds like when a car isn't getting enough gas or jumped timing....But, I didn't hear anything knocking or clangs as the garage described when they said it was the crank or rods.......

My nephew plans on returning tomorrow to continue working on it and replacing the cap and the back plugs, and a few other things he was told to try, and he did read things here as well so he can hopefully pin point this problem. Trying to try different things with out spending a fortune and not give up on this motor just yet (basically not taking a lot of stock into the mechanics at the garage I went to) I had a couple other questions too: With the battery being located in the front firewall by the drivers tire, could the water have damaged the battery and would that fall under warranty being it is only 9 months old? (of course that would just be the keeping a charge issue that I am having)... Could the fuel filter maybe got wet and making it act this way, We hear the fuel pump kicking on, but could the filter have gotten wet and keeping gas from getting where needed? Also we have to jump the car to get a good consistant roll over, what area should I look to first, the battery itself, starter or alternator. I'm not 100% sure, but I think the alternator was going bad, but not by charging system, it did rattle prior to this whole thing(was told the bearing or something might of been going bad). I realize that isn't the issue why the car won't fire up, but it's not normal to have to keep attempting to giving it a jump start. Any other advice or suggested would be greatly appreciated, being I had my nephew read the follow ups while he was here to get somemore ideas of what to do next.

Once again, I really appreciate everyones help. Just frustrated, I have a child that is severally disabled, and not having a car is making it hard, not to mention, I worry about any medical problems with my son and can't get him to Dr.s if need be( I don't have a lot of people that offer help in my area)..I've also been looking into other cars at car lots, being I don't have $$$ to buy one outright and go the payment route, but if I can hopefully not go into debt for a different car, I would prefere to hopefully find that my motor isn't toast and can possibly run again. Thanks, dolejaly(Tam)


nickwarner
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Aug 2, 2012, 12:21 AM

Post #22 of 36 (1736 views)
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If your nephew is at all decent with cars make sure you bring him in on these posts and have him post himself on findings. A fuel filter is sealed from the outside. Drop it the the bottom of the ocean and it doesn't care. Water would have to be in the fuel tank to get in the filter.

Your battery issue needs to be addressed, and it will do no good to fix anything else until a solid electrical flow is available to it. There is no way to tell if it was drowned in water just looking at it so if its junk and under warranty take it back and let them give you a new one. When you do, get some dielectric grease. Have your nephew first wire brush the hell out of the terminals until they are shiny and clean. Then coat the battery terminals with a healthy amount of the grease. Hook up the cables and smear more on. This keeps them from oxidizing later and assures good amp flow. Especially with where that car keeps its battery you need it. I use it on all batteries from my motorcycle to semitrucks.

Before doing the rest of the plugs have your nephew do a compression test. The tester is inexpensive and can be rented for a deposit which you get back on return at some parts stores. All plugs must be out, and pull the fuse for the fuel pump when you do it. One cylinder at a time you thread into the spark plug hole a gauge. Hold the throttle wide open and crank the engine about 5 seconds. The battery must be at a full state of charge to get the right result. Note the reading on all cylinders. Post the results to us. You will be doing at that point what is called a dry test. The next step is the wet test, which tests your piston rings. Have an oil squirt can (think tinman on wizard of oz) ready with engine oil. Give 2 or 3 squirts down the spark plug hole and then hook up the compression tester. Note the readings for each cylinder. I put a pad on the engine to note dry and wet results as I go. Post all readings to us and we can tell you the steps to take and what tools are needed. Make sure you involve your nephew in this and tell his to be realistically honest as to his abilities with cars. We are all certified pros here and we can talk a newbie through something but if he overstates his ability he could do expensive damage thinking he knows something he doesn't.


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Aug 2, 2012, 1:11 AM

Post #23 of 36 (1731 views)
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dolejaly : I think you can see we aren't giving up on this saga unfolding. Seems like a bunch of hyenas for mechanics have looked at it which was a good idea that screwed up leaving broken off wires and who knows so now factor that as making this harder to determine.

Unless I missed something so far I don't think anyone has good proof that this is a lost cause at all. Seems you have some help now. You keep saying it sounds like it wants to start and you may be right. Multiple attempts may have soaked plugs with fuel that can't dry out well so if plugs are reused they should be heated up. Fuel saturation can disturb them from sparking properly even if they look dry of fuel. A decent hair dryer (I'll avoid other more serious tricks for now) to the point they are too hot to handle should do.

What I'm saying is all the attempts now could be fouling up the diagnosis. Easy to not overwork the starter too.

This has been on my mind about some strange things that can throw off the diagnosis. I'm somewhat wary of the hot exhaust parts (normal) suddenly shocked with cold (cool) water that might have blown debris inside them possibly causing problems. Some decent flow out the tailpipe should prove that it's ok on that just cranking it. You use the word "rolling over" and suggest you call it cranking as rolling over makes me picture this thing flipping on its side but know what you are saying.

Back: As Nick said, test tools if any major parts outlets are available do the "free" loaner of many items - full deposit for safe return.

I say keep at it - the jury is still deliberating on this,

T


dolejaly
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Aug 2, 2012, 10:56 AM

Post #24 of 36 (1721 views)
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Thanks guys!!!!....My nephew is really good about not trying to over push his abilities and is doing research as well as he was reading posts here yesterday, so I am sure he will be following up here, of course his wording prolly will be better than my slang terms...LOL....I'm still furious with the finding from the local garage here, espcially after seeing what they done to the plug wires/possible starter and yet charged me for looking at it. As I said I am no mechanic, but to me if it had bent push rods and a busted crank, I just don't think it would sound as it does cranking over when it has that jump point as sounding like it wants to start.

I'm just waiting on my nephew to get here now, rained a bit this morning, I am sure he is waiting to see if it clears up before driving over...All I need is more water on the motor...lol...We will be keeping you updated!!!!!...


nickwarner
Veteran / Moderator


Aug 2, 2012, 10:31 PM

Post #25 of 36 (1699 views)
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Your car was nade to drive in rain. Don't worry too much about the hood being up in the rain. As long as parts aren't pulled open to the weather on the engine you won't be in worse shape than you are now.




CAR STALLED IN WATER HOLE


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