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Air filter box intake


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BollWeevil
Novice

Jun 1, 2016, 7:49 PM

Post #1 of 17 (420 views)
Air filter box intake Sign In

Just bought:
2009 F150 XLT 5.4L 4x4

Stock air filter box (new KN reusable flat filter) and tubing to throttle body; but my question is about the air intake into the filter box.

Where air enters the filter box, it appeared to me to be so confined that significantly little air could get in. This was due to the side panel, plastic from tire fender well, and 2 rubber skirtings (which appear to have no use other than keeping water/mud away from box) completely encasing the filter box intake.

So I ran a 3" HVAC duct from the box intake down in between radiator and bumper/grill. The duct is about 4' long. There is definitely plenty of air available now; however am I losing fuel efficiency, power or is the engine working harder now that it has to suck air through 4 more feet? Have I done a good thing or should I change it back? Thanks


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Jun 1, 2016, 10:53 PM

Post #2 of 17 (411 views)
Re: Air filter box intake Sign In

I don't need to see anything but words K&N - remove all that junk and put back OE set up exactly. It's all junk, harms performance, doesn't work as advertised, may be illegal in places.


Think: This truck is possibly the most popular vehicle never mind a truck there is. If some crappy junk made it work better, run better, cleaner, more power so easily Ford would have done it new OE. Everything including temp of air coming in, pressure by design of body and not allowing water to enter all count big time,


T



(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Jun 1, 2016, 10:58 PM)


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Jun 2, 2016, 4:58 AM

Post #3 of 17 (407 views)
Re: Air filter box intake Sign In


Quote
So I ran a 3" HVAC duct from the box intake down in between radiator and bumper/grill. The duct is about 4' long.


That is the dumbest and fastest way i know to blow an engine. The first rain puddle you hit and that thing takes a gulp of water and your connecting rod is going to ventilate the side of your block.

I agree with Tom. Take that K&N crap and throw it away. It has absolutely NO BENEFIT whatsoever. It's marketing hype.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Discretesignals profile image

Jun 2, 2016, 7:17 AM

Post #4 of 17 (403 views)
Re: Air filter box intake Sign In

You should change it back. You might be causing a ram air situation which will cause the MAF sensor output to be different than what it normally would be. You also might be changing the way the air flows through the sensor due to turbulence. The software in the PCM is not set up to handle ram air or supercharging conditions.

The engineers know how much air flow the engine requires and how to design the air intake system to get the best performance/economy and at the same time reduce intake air noise. Unless you were modifying the engine so it pumps more air why change the characteristics of the air intake system?





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.

(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jun 2, 2016, 7:21 AM)


BollWeevil
Novice

Jun 2, 2016, 8:33 PM

Post #5 of 17 (386 views)
Re: Air filter box intake Sign In

Not sure what you mean by all that junk. The only modification is a 4' HVAC duct? What filter brand would you recommend? I can't see a major company making illegal stock air filters. It's what an individual may put on that could be illegal, and mine isn't.


BollWeevil
Novice

Jun 2, 2016, 8:43 PM

Post #6 of 17 (385 views)
Re: Air filter box intake Sign In

What's so bad about K&N filters? And what brand would you recommend? And the only non stock item is the 4' HVAC duct. So the only difference is more air is available. Again I bought this used, so I don't know if the rubber skirts are modifications. I do know that the air filter box and all the tubing to the throttle body are stock. I agree Ford has done their research but my question hasn't been answered.

Is it more of a strain to suck air an additional 4'? This is the only difference.

I've considered water/mud but I don't go through deep enough to worry. Normal driving and even heavy rain and puddles pure physics shows that no water is getting into air filter much less throttle body. In fact my set up is less likely for this to happen because the water would have to travel about 3-4' up to get to the filter then pass through it onto the throttle body. The original stock intake is basically level with the tubes and throttle body.

I can see what you're saying about the MAF sensor however I don't see how there's additional turbulence because the air goes through the stock air filter, but you may be right.

More air is better and it's free. The only thing done is how far air intake is from the filter box and filter. If there was a complete obstruction over the stock filter box intake then it gets no air thus won't run.

Does anyone know if an additional 4' will cause poorer fuel efficiency?


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Jun 3, 2016, 1:21 AM

Post #7 of 17 (382 views)
Re: Air filter box intake Sign In

Quote you ">>I can't see a major company making illegal stock air filters.<<"
It's not illegal to sell junk and it's J-U-N-K with superior marketing and lies. Already said if it worked it would be original equipment.


What you risk is altering a VERY important part of how the engine runs. The vehicle knows the incoming air speed and temperature and adjusts instantly and accordingly to max out performance, fuel economy with the least emissions. That's why you already have problems - you messed that up with JUNK. It's not meant for vehicles much newer than now about 40 year old stuff you could dress up and make some extra performance over original design.


If this picks up water already mentioned it will instantly destroy the whole engine - nice idea and it really will if just the right puddle and situation will suck in water which doesn't compress. If forced to try to it will crack the engine hopelessly. It's legal to allow that if you drank the Kool-Aid. Some places, where I live by chance it's illegal to touch anything OE about an engine - period. If noticed it would be towed from a public road at your expense and you can do what you want on your own property but not on a public road.


You could recolor or chrome exact parts.


For an air filter there are aftermarket brands that are exact duplicates of the original for routine replacement. You do NOT have to buy one from Ford in this case, Fram, Purolator, Wix, Napa brands and a dozen more and it's possible K&N makes an OE one just put it in - no alterations.


It's more than just wrecking your performance it's not proven fire safe TMK also. A backfire isn't necessarily controlled by this mess.


Not trying to be a kill-joy but the alterations and fun to play around with an engine about ended in model year 1983 or so where I am. Still can't alter visually any safety or item that could change emissions.


Forget legalities if you want as with hood closed who would know? The problem is it doesn't work - it's a lie to sell you this stuff and they got away with it.
Hey - this site is loaded with techs, younger or older from all over the US a couple from Canada about the same vehicles sold.


Sorry to beat up on this but you ARE having problems already proving it doesn't work. Replies are by tech's that know it doesn't work. This is MA where I am. Look at the sticker under your hood someplace that states the vehicle complies with standards for CA and MA when sold new. If not there you would have to put it back or couldn't buy a new car/vehicle and register it here without a certificate that it's been certified compliant - most would be new now and have been.


I don't personally care what you do to your own property AYOR if it works or not, this doesn't.
Nuff said - have at it or learn the hard way,


Tom



Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Jun 3, 2016, 2:04 AM

Post #8 of 17 (375 views)
Re: Air filter box intake Sign In

I can see we're just wasting our typing here.

Let me reiterate.

K&N makes claims that aren't true. They are just junk and unnecessary modifications.

If you doubt water can make it all the way into the cylinder, you are in for a surprise. I have personally seen it happen over a dozen times with complete catastrophic results.

More air is not an automatic benefit. The system is engineered with all the air the engine is capable of drawing in.

Take that junk and throw it in the trash where it belongs.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Discretesignals profile image

Jun 3, 2016, 6:31 AM

Post #9 of 17 (366 views)
Re: Air filter box intake Sign In

Its not so much the K&N filter element, it's the use of too much oil. I wouldn't put an oiled air filter on a MAF system regardless. The paper filters does a fine job as long as they are sealed properly.

GM has a TSB on this:

Bulletin No.: 04-07-30-013B

Date: February 01, 2007

INFORMATION

Subject:
Automatic Transmission Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On as a Result of the Use of an Excessively/Over-Oiled Aftermarket, Reusable Air Filter

Models:
2007 and Prior GM Cars and Light Duty Trucks
2007 and Prior Saturn Models
2003-2007 HUMMER H2
2006-2007 HUMMER H3
2005-2007 Saab 9-7X

The use of an excessively/over-oiled aftermarket, reusable air filter may result in:

Service Engine Soon (SES) light on

Transmission shift concerns, slipping and damaged clutch(es) or band(s)

Engine driveability concerns, poor acceleration from a stop, limited engine RPM range

The oil that is used on these air filter elements may be transferred onto the Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor causing contamination of the sensor. As a result, the Grams per Second (GPS) signal from the MAF may be low and any or all of the concerns listed above may occur.

When servicing a vehicle with any of these concerns, be sure to check for the presence of an aftermarket reusable, excessively/over-oiled air filter. The MAF, GPS reading should be compared to a like vehicle with an OEM air box and filter under the same driving conditions to verify the concern.

The use of an aftermarket reusable air filter DOES NOT void the vehicle's warranty.

If an aftermarket reusable air filter is used, technicians should inspect the MAF sensor element and the air induction hose for contamination of oil prior to making warranty repairs.

Transmission or engine driveability concerns (related to the MAF sensor being contaminated with oil) that are the result of the use of an aftermarket reusable, excessively/over-oiled air filter are not considered to be warrantable repair items.



I would consider this TSB to apply to any vehicle.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.

(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jun 3, 2016, 6:32 AM)


BollWeevil
Novice

Jun 3, 2016, 12:07 PM

Post #10 of 17 (357 views)
Re: Air filter box intake Sign In

Thanks I appreciate your time, you've given me helpful information to go forward. Especially with the oiled filter.


(This post was edited by BollWeevil on Jun 3, 2016, 12:25 PM)


BollWeevil
Novice

Jun 3, 2016, 12:23 PM

Post #11 of 17 (356 views)
Re: Air filter box intake Sign In

I genuinely appreciate your time and info. I don't know what to believe from you. You've contradicted yourself. In your first post K&N is a terrible filter. Now in your second post you list it with other brands as ok to use??? You seem to think I have problems with my truck which I don't. The truck is running just fine with the way I have set it up. I was hoping to get some better MPG and in the city it seems the same yet hwy I'll have to wait and see. The other information you've provided I appreciate and will consider. However it does seem that all are saying it's not a good idea to extend the air intake hole, and won't increase fuel efficiency.


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Jun 3, 2016, 1:06 PM

Post #12 of 17 (351 views)
Re: Air filter box intake Sign In

Ok - I/we've bashed K&N enough mostly because they claim bull that isn't true. IF they stuck to just making good air filter, and other things they'd gain respect.
Parts by brand change like the wind. OE isn't made by the manufacturer of any - it's all sent out to make to a certain specification and put their name on it. IDK a car maker that makes tires, shocks, wiring harnesses the metal - not much. They design it which costs billions and if a big mistake go bankrupt like that hasn't happened.


It's wildly completive to make a vehicle - about any, with some bragging rights. Power in it's class, towing capacity, safety, MPGs, dependability and a long list. If something was so easy as changing how air is inducted/routed gave it even 1% it would be done new. If they don't sell and make customers happy they are toast.


Light of heart sport. It's a good truck by design without messing with it. Best thing you could do for it is use proper rated synthetic oils and greases an changed on time.


Good luck with it,


Tom



BollWeevil
Novice

Jun 3, 2016, 1:31 PM

Post #13 of 17 (349 views)
Re: Air filter box intake Sign In

Water was an original concern for me; yet I didn't think there was any way it could get to the engine. Thanks for sharing your insight.

Still can't upload any pictures. Hopefully I explained my situation effectively and your advice is applicable. I can't educate myself if I don't ask, so thanks for all your time. It's been helpful


BollWeevil
Novice

Jun 3, 2016, 1:35 PM

Post #14 of 17 (345 views)
Re: Air filter box intake Sign In

Good to hear about synthetic oil, that's what I went with and Ford's recommended 5w-20.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Jun 3, 2016, 1:38 PM

Post #15 of 17 (343 views)
Re: Air filter box intake Sign In


Quote
Water was an original concern for me; yet I didn't think there was any way it could get to the engine.


I guarantee you that if you drive through high water with a low air pick up, you will be buying an engine. I have personally seen at least a dozen destroyed that way, 3 in the same storm one time.

Let's be clear what we are saying about K&N. It is an over priced but quality filter but it will not increase your horsepower or fuel mileage one bit, no matter what crap they sling you to sell it.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



BollWeevil
Novice

Jun 3, 2016, 8:16 PM

Post #16 of 17 (334 views)
Re: Air filter box intake Sign In

Sure I can see submerging the intake would create problems. Now that I've learned it's possible even without going through high water I can make changes.

I didn't know anything about the K&N filter so I'm not sure what the "hype" is they're trying to sell. I didn't care what filter I got. The only reason I got the K&N was it was washable and reuseable. I'm guessing that's one of the things they are advertising that y'all are saying isn't as great as they claim.


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Jun 4, 2016, 2:21 AM

Post #17 of 17 (329 views)
Re: Air filter box intake Sign In

Sport - Quit wasting time - they don't help at best. Nice thought they are re-usable - so are ones in some lawnmowers!
Own an oil bath air filter in a tractor that works right now - designed for it.


Have seen OE Caravans (The Chrysler minivans) suck up water OE and bang - game over. That was OE! They are also owned by FIAT now for their shear brilliance!


Things that don't work off the top of my head that are not suggested up to cause harm:
1. Spark plugs with wild claims.


2. 99% of products to improve how it runs you add to fuel.


3. Sealers - 99% cause problems not fix them.


4. Magic fuel additives like octane boosters + junk that makes more power increases MPG lots - not.


5. Little Tree Air fresheners do work - about an hour! Buy those instead as they don't hurt much, don't mess with engine operation unless you put one in air intake.



*******************************************
Almost or more than an entire isle of especially chain parts outlets sell tons of stuff that plain doesn't work because it sells. Companies pay them off for end isle displays even. They pay for what position on store shelves also - grocery stores are famous for this. It's not chance - it's corrupt marketing - buyers beware. It's legal for them to do that.
------------------------
You just got this thing and understand the excitement. Save you money and just keep the thing in excellent shape and maintain it. If you must buy LED tire valve lights, stickers, decals, floor mats or something harmless.


Things that work:
1. Synthetic oils (some vehicles require it)
2. Proper care as per Owner's Manual - read it.
3. Driving carefully
4. Keep tires at proper pressure! (unreal how many don't)
5. Park in shade and out of weather if possible - climate controlled garaged best.


That's about it. The rest of anything is almost all bullcrap,


Tom







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