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15% is bad! 20% ethanol is even worse!!


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brager
User

Jan 31, 2010, 4:29 PM

Post #1 of 8 (1492 views)
post icon 15% is bad! 20% ethanol is even worse!! Sign In

im concerned about the amount of ethanol in our fuel listen 15%
is not good already im seeing trouble with it let alone bumbing it
up even higher ethanol alone is a very good cleaner but also on the
other too its a water absorber it absorbs water and everyone knows
that water in a fuel system is bad creates corossion and problems

but unlike years before once upon a time when we had very little
ethanol in fuel any water in the tank would of been able to seperate where
the water would go to the bottom of a gas tank and the gas to the top and thats why your car wouldent start because the fuel pump was sucking water and the engine could not burn water but unlike to day with the amount of ethanol in a tank
of fuel today any water in there or any thats getting absorbed by ethanol

is getting mixed not seperated but mixed to where the vehicles engine
is burning it know your thinking thats ok. well not so it will burn it..but run rough and perform poorly but still be able to run and i will tell you something else heres more proof... you cant store ethanol in a boat and store it away for spring come spring there is so much water and corosion in that fuel that you have done damage already... too much ethanol is terrible for our vehicles and wallets please ban
that 20% ethanol from happening or its gonna hurt a lot of peoples vehicles that

15% is already playing haveck on older vehicles that have carburetors its eating
up rubber parts in there thats because the old rubber found in a lot of these carbs
is not made of ethanol proof material sad but true Frown


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Jan 31, 2010, 4:56 PM

Post #2 of 8 (1483 views)
Re: 15% is bad! 20% ethanol is even worse!! Sign In

As far as I know, Federal law only permits a max of 10% except in E85. I've never seen anything higher than that.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Jan 31, 2010, 4:57 PM

Post #3 of 8 (1481 views)
Re: 15% is bad! 20% ethanol is even worse!! Sign In

Agree totally - what a waste! Check your MPG on it vs non ethanol-ed fuel and you'll find a dramatic drop in mileage. Here the state allows up to 10% and further North than Mass you can find non ethanol fuel but only away from well populated areas.

Not the best product for vehicles not specifically designed to use it and if it wasn't subsidized to make it's costly. Wish they would re-think it as it's not turning out well for lots of reasons,

T



brager
User

Feb 1, 2010, 7:36 AM

Post #4 of 8 (1470 views)
Re: 15% is bad! 20% ethanol is even worse!! Sign In

hammer there is a state somewhere cant remember wich one
right now but they are using 15% ethanol already and seeing a lot of trouble this ethanol is going to ruin snow mobiles, law motors
any kind of out door type motor that runs on gas its gonna
damage it including our own vehicles Mad.we all need to contact our congressman and complain petition what ever... against this so they dont push this through.... Mad


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Feb 1, 2010, 6:19 PM

Post #5 of 8 (1458 views)
Re: 15% is bad! 20% ethanol is even worse!! Sign In

No, right now the Federal limit is 10% everywhere



Frequently Asked Questions about the E15 Waiver

What is being requested in the E15 waiver?
The federal government currently limits the amount of ethanol in a gallon of gasoline to only 10 percent. On March 6, a formal application was submitted to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to allow this base blend level to be raised to up to 15 percent.

Who submitted the waiver application?
The American Coalition for Ethanol (ACE) joined Growth Energy, the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition, the Renewable Fuels Association, corn ethanol producers, and several cellulosic ethanol companies in making the request to the EPA.

What is EPA’s process for reviewing the waiver?
The EPA has 270 days to review the waiver application. A public comment period is currently in effect, originally set to end on May 21, but now extended through July 20.
Under federal law, to obtain a waiver, the application must demonstrate that the fuel additive will not cause or contribute to the failure of vehicles’ emission control systems. We believe there is substantial scientific evidence supporting the safe and successful use of E15 in standard vehicles. Extensive third-party research shows that emissions control systems are unaffected by the use of E15.

What is the “E10 blend wall?”
Because the federal government currently limits the amount of ethanol in gasoline to just 10 percent, America will soon reach a mathematical limitation on its use of renewable fuel. Everywhere that can use E10 soon will be using E10, a “blend wall” that is stalling growth in the nation’s green energy sector and jeopardizing the commercialization of next-generation fuels like cellulosic ethanol.

Why was 10 percent ethanol chosen years ago?
Ethanol has been around for many years, even in the era of the Model T as the fuel Henry Ford envisioned for America’s new automobile. But in the energy crisis of the 1970s, ethanol made its debut as a widespread blending component in gasoline. The 10 percent ethanol level was an arbitrary figure agreed upon during those first negotiations between the federal government and the oil companies. There is no science showing that 10 percent is the only, or even the optimal, blend of ethanol in gasoline.

Why was the 15 percent ethanol level chosen?
An increase in the base blend from 10 to 15 percent ethanol is a reasonable request, one supported by volumes of science to back up the use of E15 or higher in standard vehicles with no drivability, materials compatibility, or emissions concerns.

Is this a mandate for E15?
The waiver is not a mandate for E15, just an allowance for up to 15 percent ethanol to be used in each gallon of gasoline. The American Coalition for Ethanol supports consumer choice, and the E15 waiver was presented to EPA in a way that allows the agency to ensure “ethanol-free” gasoline is available to consumers,
Beyond providing consumer choice, this important fact addresses some of the issues raised by small engine manufacturers and boaters about the use of E15.
Since 1997, the State of Minnesota has required E10 in most gasoline but offers consumers the choice of "ethanol-free" gasoline at gas stations for antique cars and small engines. Minnesota's program is a successful model for EPA to consider for E15 nationally.

Can the government’s renewable fuels targets be met without raising the blend level?
If the government limit on having only 10 percent ethanol per gallon of gas stays in place, it will actually prevent the 2007 energy bill’s Renewable Fuels Standard (RFS) from being fulfilled. The RFS calls for a minimum of 36 billion gallons of renewable fuels to be used nationwide by 2022; this is much more than 10 percent of the total 135+ billion gallon gasoline market, meaning fuels higher than E10 will need to be used to fulfill the RFS.

How would E15 affect cellulosic ethanol?
The E10 blend market can be fully supplied by corn-based ethanol, and if EPA’s three-decades-old restriction on 10 percent ethanol in gasoline isn’t lifted, there will be no market for next-generation fuels like cellulosic ethanol. With no market certainty, investment in and progress toward cellulosic ethanol will come to a grinding halt – and with it, America “green energy” jobs and the chance at energy independence. Allowing E15 would provide market certainty and send a clear message to the lending community that the future for domestically produced renewable fuels is secure.

Can E15 be used in standard vehicles?
The scientific research completed by the federal government and others to date is overwhelmingly supportive of the use of E15 in standard vehicles, with no drivability, materials compatibility, or emissions control concerns.
In the past two years, multiple comprehensive studies involving over 100 vehicles, 85 vehicle and engine types, and 33 fuel dispensers have been completed to evaluate the effects of ethanol‐gasoline blends above 10 percent, from E15 to E85. These studies include a year‐long drivability test and over 5,500 hours of materials compatibility testing. Numerous government, academic, and independent sources have conducted this scientific research, including the U.S. Department of Energy, the State of Minnesota, the Energy and Environmental Research Center, and the Minnesota Center for Automotive Research.
In addition, Brazil’s long-time use of mid-range ethanol blends has shown no concerns with vehicles or gas dispensing equipment. Each gallon of gasoline in Brazil contains at least 20 percent ethanol and has for many years.

What scientific research shows that E15 can’t be used in standard vehicles?
Despite ethanol opponents’ claims that this won’t work, there does not appear to be a single piece of scientific research proving that E15 would cause problems in motor vehicles.

Is special or different equipment needed at a gas station to dispense E15?
No. Many gas pumps are already tested with up to 15 percent ethanol, even though they dispense only E10. Underwriters Laboratories (UL) says that existing dispensers can be used with up to 15 percent ethanol and that it supports local authorities who decide to permit standard gas pumps for use with up to 15 percent ethanol.

What about small engines and boats?
Small engines and boats have operated well on E10 for years, and the research is very promising for the use of ethanol blends beyond E10 in small engines and in boats. But it’s important to remember that the E15 waiver is not an E15 mandate. The American Coalition for Ethanol (ACE) advocates for consumer choice at the fuel pump and believes that vehicle, boat, or small engine owners should be allowed to choose the fuel blend they prefer – whether it be E10, E15, E85, or something in between.

How would this impact auto emissions and address air pollution?
Through this waiver process, the EPA must determine that E15 would not cause or contribute to the failure of vehicles’ emission control systems. The scientific research here is solid. In addition, the use of more ethanol nationwide would reduce harmful air emissions because ethanol is a clean-burning fuel, much more so than gasoline, a fact backed by years of real-world use. The latest research shows that the lifecycle emissions of today’s corn-based ethanol are on average 51 percent better than those of gasoline.

What have automakers said about the waiver?
Automakers have raised some concerns about moving to E15, but Ford Motor Company has written a letter endorsing the efforts. The letter, from Susan Cischke, Ford’s Vice President for Sustainability, Environment and Safety Engineering, states: “Ford endorses efforts to increase base level blends up to E15 and collaborate with key stakeholders to overcome challenges with introducing these higher levels of ethanol.”
Remember that automakers opposed seat belts and fuel economy standards when these upgrades, too, were first proposed, and if it was not for government action, these important steps may not have been taken.

How would this impact fuel economy?
Previous studies comparing the fuel economy of gasoline to E10 indicate virtually no difference. In fact, driving habits, the rate of speed, and tire pressure are factors that affect fuel economy much more than the small amount of ethanol in the gasoline. Adding five percent more ethanol should not measurably affect fuel economy in vehicles.

What about E85 and Flexible Fuel Vehicles?
Even if the EPA approves E15 or another mid-level blend, there remains the priority to develop the E85 marketplace for Flexible Fuel Vehicles and to encourage the installation of blender pumps to make blends such as E20, E30, and E85 available to drivers of FFVs.
ACE supports legislation to require the manufacture of more FFVs and to provide incentives for the installation of blender pumps.

Does more ethanol in the form of E15 mean there will be more corn used for ethanol and less for food?
No. PR attacks launched against corn ethanol misled the public that corn ethanol was contributing to food prices. But the facts are that high energy costs are the main reason for food price hikes. Moreover, corn prices and oil prices have dropped by 50 percent since the summer of 2008, yet food manufacturers have kept food prices high.
ACE is calling upon Congress to hold hearings to investigate why the members of the Grocery Manufacturers Association insist on keeping food prices high, despite the fact that ingredient costs have fallen by 50 percent or more.

Back to E15 Action Center



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Feb 1, 2010, 6:33 PM)


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Feb 1, 2010, 6:32 PM

Post #6 of 8 (1453 views)
Re: 15% is bad! 20% ethanol is even worse!! Sign In

NEWSMAKER INTERVIEW:
Despite being pinched by the economic downturn, ethanol producers are expanding so rapidly that they are pressing the government to overturn its 25-year-old rule that limits to 10 percent the amount of the corn-based additive that can be put into a tank of gasoline.
The effort comes as the industry finds itself well ahead of its federally mandated schedule to produce, by 2015, 15 billion gallons of ethanol each year for use in U.S. vehicles.
Federal environmental rules now limit to 10 percent the amount of ethanol that can be added to a gallon of gasoline. On Tuesday, ethanol industry representatives told reporters and editors of The Washington Times that they plan to lobby hard to expand that amount to as much as 15 percent.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Feb 2, 2010, 3:47 AM

Post #7 of 8 (1445 views)
Re: 15% is bad! 20% ethanol is even worse!! Sign In

I may have bad information on this product for fuel but TMK it's subsidized as said above at what I heard was about $1.00 a gallon which is strong incentive to farm for it instead of food products and at the moment there are still millions of vehicles that will suffer from its use if any stronger.

Word has it Brazil has gone nuts to use it for fuel and it can be a way to reduce importing oil products. I wish they would make provisions for a choice as it seems (no proof from me) to be less stable and I'm having more troubles with assorted engines it takes for yard care equipment, mowers, blowers, weed whackers - the list goes on.

It just bugs me that we, meaning USA, Canada and Mexico are energy rich but enough argument has arisen to delay or prohibit using what we are sitting on that will just go to waste IMO if not used or blow up with some volcano some hundreds of years from now or tomorrow - who knows?

When use of tetra ethyl lead was on it's way out we still had options to buy it. Hindsight is 20/20 of course and the lobby for lead was strong with wild claims of how its use was beneficial for valves in an engine which in my experience turned out to be false. I owned a 1970 vehicle bought new by someone who only used then called "white gas" which was intended pre-unleaded as an unleaded fuel for storage of equipment and also known as Marine fuel. In a 1/4 million miles, that engine was never apart for any or work and died of body rust far exceeding the repair thereof while running perfectly.

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I heard and read some convincing articles not at hand now that if you look into it deep enough, that ethanol actually is counter productive if you factor how much fossil fuel it takes to grow, fertilize field (very energy intensive to make) and factor the raised cost of food products. I think we have jumped the gun with all good intentions with this one,

T



nickwarner
Veteran / Moderator
nickwarner profile image

Feb 11, 2010, 1:12 AM

Post #8 of 8 (1422 views)
Re: 15% is bad! 20% ethanol is even worse!! Sign In

very true. The subsidies from big brother are the only cost incentive. Ethanol costs more to make than gas! I live in the middle of Wisconsin around ethanol plants and farms. There's good money in it only because of the subsidies! But the gas stations have started advertising their premium gas which is ethanol free as better for the small engines, boats and seasonal equipment. I never run my motorcycle on anything less than premium and it was made in 1979 so its not like I'm anal about it. I just know on the ethanol gas it runs like crap.






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