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Car cranking but not starting.


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chuckdupp
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Jan 28, 2017, 11:43 AM

Post #1 of 28 (786 views)
Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

Hey guys, got another question for ya. So now that my car's starter/battery problems are more or less solved, I gotta figure out why she won't run. So far I've removed the fuel filter and inspected it for debris, looks fine. I've taken off the air filter and sprayed a lot of carb cleaner down the valve gas comes out of and removed the idle screw and sprayed a crap load in there as well.
With starter fluid she starts right up but dies as soon as that burns off.
I was thinking of replacing the fuel pump. When she was running I would get very low power on hills and if I hit the gas hard I'd almost alway sputter out.
I put two gallons in so theres definitely gas in the tank.
Carb is definitely in rough shape. Lots of silicon or something has been applied very generously.
I'm not opposed to removing the carb and cleaning or even rebuilding, I just need to get this thing running so I can bring her back home and do those sorts of repairs.





chuckdupp
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Jan 28, 2017, 11:55 AM

Post #2 of 28 (782 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

Am I confused? I checked the filter that looks like this


Should I also be looking for a filter that looks like this?


Feels like a dumb question but I'll go for it.


chuckdupp
User

Jan 28, 2017, 12:31 PM

Post #3 of 28 (775 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

Oh yeah, its a 1969 Ford Falcon Wagon


Tom Greenleaf
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Jan 28, 2017, 1:56 PM

Post #4 of 28 (757 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

The clear filter is for inline not OE to Fords of the vintage but added. The metal one would screw into the carb but didn't see one in your pictures so it's deleted for the in line one.
Alone if done right with a plumbing threaded spout where the one it calls for would go doesn't really matter. It there gas getting to carb at all? Clear filters like shown can look 1/2 full with some air normally.


Let's narrow this down fast. Just prime the carb with some starting fluid or just some gas, not too much and see if it reacts at all or even starts right up for a second.


Need to know that much now.


While looking why is the port on carb plugged off with a hose and bolt in it? Not right and could be a problem. Vague memory for this did possibly vent fuel bowl of carb thru that which even that old went thru a charcoal canister. That may all be missing or screwed up but would need to vent the carb somehow anyway. Have some idea and that would if what I'm thinking prevent it from running probably not just starting up until fuel in the carb ran out,


T



Hammer Time
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Jan 28, 2017, 3:51 PM

Post #5 of 28 (747 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In


Quote
I'm not opposed to removing the carb and cleaning or even rebuilding,


How would you think you were qualified to do that. There are mechanics that worked on cars like that for years but do not understand the first thing about the inside of a carb and how to set one up. That is a very specialized trade and it would be very questionable that your carb would even be rebuildable.

You can purchase factory rebuilds (exchange) online and that should be the only option you are considering. You first need to confirm fuel pressure and volume before considering that.

Am I seeing a large, wide open vacuum port in one of those pictures?



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chuckdupp
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Jan 28, 2017, 6:53 PM

Post #6 of 28 (735 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

So the car starts right up when primed with a little starting fluid.
The clear filter is half full of gas. I didn't really think until I was back home that maybe I should empty it and see if it fills back up.
Not sure why the carb has been modified as much as it has but that's what I'm working with.

Maybe that was a naive statement but I dunno, I've taken a lot of things apart and put back together qualified or not. Sometimes it works out, sometimes I end up having to buy a new part. Upon learning that it's been hacked up so much, I do doubt I could do more than just try to really clean it out.

There does seem to be several open ports. Two on the front, the very visible one in the pciture with air filter on, and one that sits just below the filter that isn't as visible in the photo. Then there is also one in the side I believe.

Before sitting for a month this car ran pretty good with the carb as is.
In the cold New York weather, no fluid ever needed.


Hammer Time
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Jan 28, 2017, 6:56 PM

Post #7 of 28 (730 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

If any of those ports are sucking air, they need to be blocked off.



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chuckdupp
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Jan 28, 2017, 7:03 PM

Post #8 of 28 (722 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

Ah okay. I'll have to find a way to test that. If I empty the in line filter out, then try to start the car and there is gas in the filter, do you think that would be a reliable fuel pump test?


Hammer Time
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Jan 28, 2017, 7:13 PM

Post #9 of 28 (714 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

No, you need to disconnect the line and see if you can fill a coffee cup within about 10 seconds of cranking



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Tom Greenleaf
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Jan 29, 2017, 6:02 AM

Post #10 of 28 (691 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

OK - back at this. As Hammer Time (HT) said you can just test the flow OUT of fuel pump just cranking into a container. I about wasn't going there and now you said it will start so the issue is back to why fuel isn't reaching carb's fuel bowl which is like an ordinary toilet tank in carb where then fuel gets delivered. Just like a toilet if you sealed the common back tank tight enough no water would come in if air can't go out.
There MUST be a vent for the bowl! It would let some in but way too slow as gaskets are NOT that air tight alone but the vent is either right at top of carb or vents away from it so need to know which hoses can be plugged and which ones you can't.


I somewhat doubt this carb is any good as even a core you'd lose you deposit. No problem just eat that but get what belongs on that engine if you can find out.


The evaporation of gasoline was already being controlled from fuel anywhere by some I think 1968 and 1969 models and for sure soon after. So if that was meant to be for fumes to go into a charcoal container and you plugged it off it will be problems so should really have a carb that matches or this will end up such a hack job already shown as many model years of carbs would fit right when emission control of evaporated fuel was also a place to control. Parts frequently might come from S. California which was first to mandate use of things but has the parts!


The choke is a project of itself with carbs to get exactly right.
Here's you hacked up carb again......

I have the specs if you can come up with #s off of that could post them manually or look it up what is for what.


IT'S NOT THAT EASY TO GET EVEN THIS SIMPLE ONE JUST RIGHT!
One more thing, check fuel gas cap. Same model year did use either a vented cap or sealed depending on vehicle and placement. For testing just take it off as if tank is sucking tank into a vacuum it will quit giving you fuel then wlll again for a little while.


Do you really want to learn this much about this car/engine or just find some qualified help who can point out what items are the trouble and do the hunt for correct parts?


T



chuckdupp
User

Jan 29, 2017, 2:18 PM

Post #11 of 28 (667 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

Alright, well the pump seems to be doin its job. It'll fill a 8oz container pretty quick.
Once again just tried just blowing any gum out with carb cleaner. It'll start up by just burnin the cleaner then sputter out.
replaced the fuel filter and sprayed the hell outta the fuel valve on the carb, most just seemed to flow back out, is that a sign that there's blockage there? Or would the lack of throttle pressure have that closed?
Here are a couple better pics of the valves that seemed to at some point have had a hose or something. I tried pointing a screwdriver at what we're lookin at. Also is a pic of the #'s on the carb. (8994 AAA 1546)
The top pic, is that the old fuel valve? I unscrewed it and cleaned that all up but it might just need to be closed up.
There seems to be some silicon around the valve in the middle photo. Not sure if that was just cause there's silicon everywhere or if its a valve that should be closed off.
Should ALL of the ports/valves be closed up? Should it ONLY be getting air from the intake/filter on top?

I'm not really into the idea for spending $300 to replace the carb.
Can anyone point me in the direction of the right rebuild kit?
I'm getting lots of different looking kits when I google.
Carb is 8994AAA 1546






(This post was edited by chuckdupp on Jan 29, 2017, 3:49 PM)


Tom Greenleaf
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Jan 29, 2017, 4:37 PM

Post #12 of 28 (640 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

OK: Since new isn't interesting yet try some things that aren't too hard to do. FIRST THING IS THE FLARE NUT AND HOSE going where the fuel filter was meant to doesn't belong there it just worked somehow - Teflon taped and forced in - don't REMOVE that or it almost certainly will be all over for that carb.
There was a rubber hose to that line that should come off leaving the metal line - spray carb cleaner into that as best you can.


Wouldn't hurt to remove lower "idle mixture needle" but count how many turns in first. It's the one with the spring over the screw. Spray carb cleaner thru that as well. No problem cleaning up the outside with a whole can too - it's a mess! Watch out for it till dry on outside.


You could try with a new clean hose where fuel comes in put that on and just blow or up to compressed air into that.


Needle valve is stuck I think or can't vent as mentioned.


To unstick a needle valve (can buy those separately) there's a trick AYOR!!!! All dry and cool nothing apart on carb (YET) tap on top of carb with a real plastic hammer and I mean a tap. Not on the nut or fuel line on the top of the carb right there. 50/50 shot it will fall back and let fuel in! AYOR is you could cause a leak or crack the carb if not careful.
OK - Back. You could try spraying into the plugged off line to get carb cleaner into there. That alone may allow it to run?


Once this runs if that or anything works to pass fuel you should take just the top off the carb and then can clean out fuel bowl, jet (it's inside just a measured hole that screws in leave it alone just spray thru that when the time come.


There's tons of details I could write on till the cows came home and still miss a silly step. Not specs right now and can get them for you I'm almost sure.


It's all of this or another carb as I don't think it's worth the attempt with a kit for that one - it's wrecked IMO.


Do beware with cleaning with carb cleaner you risk a flash fire - let thing dry and be ready for that. Large wet towel at the ready to snuff it out if it happens and if not out right away the fire extinguisher which will make thing harder later.


This is all AYOR. When in doubt my suggestion is don't and wear goggles when fire is any chance!


T



chuckdupp
User

Jan 29, 2017, 5:56 PM

Post #13 of 28 (636 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

I guess I should rephrase. New carb is very interesting, but I had to set a budget for what I'd put into this car. And a $300 carb just doesn't fit in there at the moment. Especially when the car is worth about that much.
I did remove the idle screw and unleash a healthy amount of spray in there. Good call! I didn't think to remove that screws that are plugged into the hoses on ether side of the carb. I'll get up in there though! I'll try that tomorrow along with givin' it a good knock on the top.

Can I remove the top half of the carb and get to the needle valve?


(This post was edited by chuckdupp on Jan 29, 2017, 6:02 PM)


Tom Greenleaf
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Jan 29, 2017, 6:14 PM

Post #14 of 28 (613 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

It's your $$. $200 is pocket change to do squat or probably sell it off now as no way you can do much for that.
Idle mixture screw if you tightened that would screw this up. Bottom that out not too hard and back out about 3 turns - count as you go. No more than that.
***********
Yes you can take just the top off undo tiny clips, rods that go to TOP of carb and any hoses. Know which stuff went where.
Then if you remove and mark in order, say clockwise the slotted head screws lay them out in same order to go back in correct holes. If all is properly just undone you can lift the top off and see the float how it pushes the needle valve shut. With top off you can lift out the float then it's either clipped to the needle valve or them can access it.
Bowl will probably be filthy with rust mud. That cleans out pretty good with a strong pencil eraser type magnet, carb spray, paper towels till clean. Don't bend up the float or lose anything as it has a rod holding it in place only with top on. Don't but you can run an engine with the top off of a carb and watch how it's doing live in front of you if running at all.
Top gasket may tear or stay intact? Just don't let loose material get inside bowl area and then can usually be re-used if you just need to look inside and see what the deal is going on.


NAPA in particular would probably have just a needle valve in stock for this still. Common but old. I'll be busy a bit daytime tomorrow then can look up specs if you get that far. Not much point yet unless you are going for it at the risk of messing up the carb worse than it is already,


T



Hammer Time
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Jan 29, 2017, 6:18 PM

Post #15 of 28 (611 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

If you don't plan on buying a carb, then you probably should just shelf this whole idea. The silicone all over the carb just means that somebody was trying to bubble gum over leaks and that just doesn't cut it with carbs.

I can still see a wide open vacuum port at the bottom of that carb.

There is a lot more to removing the top of the carb than just removing some screws. There is a lot of interlocked linkage that you can really mess up.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Jan 29, 2017, 6:21 PM)


chuckdupp
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Jan 29, 2017, 6:34 PM

Post #16 of 28 (605 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

Alright, well I'll give this all a shot. The car cost nothing to store and is at the least fun to work on.
I'll try sealing that vacuum port at the bottom, I guess the same way whoever sealed a few of the others, with some hose, a screw, and a clamp.
I'll leave pulling the top off as a last resort.
I've never opened up a carb this large, but I've downloaded a diagram so I know what to expect.
When I removed the idle screw some silicon did come off with it. Hopefully not enough to cause a new leak.


Tom Greenleaf
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Jan 30, 2017, 12:20 AM

Post #17 of 28 (581 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

The Silicone doesn't belong nor Teflon - in carbs AT ALL. It actually might seal then blow up like a bubble gum later exposed to fuel. Carb is junk.


Now take another direction. Look around for some pick your own parts junk yard that just may have some old assorted vehicles of that general ere or Fords up to about 1972 - just look around. Something could be out there with a decent carb - same basics as yours but look for one with either fuel filter screwed into carb on one just away from the carb, metal and inline was OE.


How much? If off of an non fascinating car like say a Mustang it's not worth much IMO.


This basic SIX engine was put in tons of cars so don't look for just Falcons. They ended that name soon after that and called it a Torino with same body - doesn't matter look for the engine and years of the car,


T



Hammer Time
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Jan 30, 2017, 6:28 AM

Post #18 of 28 (572 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

Any carb that has been sitting in a junkyard for months or even years isn't going to be any good either. The fuel left inside will just varnish up the entire internals.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Tom Greenleaf
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Jan 30, 2017, 6:37 AM

Post #19 of 28 (566 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

Doesn't matter - this needs a "core" to even get going. Carb in the pics is unusable + would be scared to touch much at all. That one has no core value, T


Hammer Time
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Jan 30, 2017, 6:41 AM

Post #20 of 28 (560 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

Simply paying the core charge would likely be cheaper than buying another carb.

I would first try using that one for a core but remove all the silicone first. They will likely accept it. The leaks may be just lead seals.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Tom Greenleaf
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Jan 30, 2017, 7:57 AM

Post #21 of 28 (555 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

IDK where you could buy just a core off the web? Here the "junk yards" take off everything that could be a core that didn't already get taken then squish the rest for the metals.
IMO - there's no big interest in a 1 Barrel carb or already rebuilder's have all they need? Look at the picture of the fuel line going in back several posts. That's a FLARE NUT FROM A BRAKE, FUEL, OR that type line. That's plumbing thread not regular so wrecked now. Silicone will NOT clean out if all in hidden tiny bores might be hopeless. No Silicone is fuel tolerant for long and says so or did on any packaging. It's not used for fuel line either. Neoprene is.
This mess gets worse as we don't have a clue if that carb even belongs on this critter in fact doubt that a lot.


OP - if not going to make this a usable car take a couple pics and sell off parts. Many fit other vehicles OLDER than this if the body I think you have it's a Mustang unit body which was from a Falcon back to 1960 (first year) would share some hard to find stuff,


T


chuckdupp
User

Feb 9, 2017, 7:43 PM

Post #22 of 28 (511 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

Alright, F**k it. I'm gonna pick up a carb on ebay. The car was running super rich before even with all that leak potential anyways. Also I guess I want this to be a safe car. Don't wanna suck a glob of that silicon/teflon whatever it is down the intake and cause a scene.


Hammer Time
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Feb 9, 2017, 9:04 PM

Post #23 of 28 (509 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

EBay isn't the place to buy one. You're going to end up with the wrong one.

http://www.guaranteedcarburetors.com/


http://nationalcarburetors.com/

http://uremcoinc.com/carburetors

http://www.carburetion.com/price.htm



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



chuckdupp
User

Feb 9, 2017, 9:22 PM

Post #24 of 28 (505 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

Really? Even with the system they have to check compatibility?


Hammer Time
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Feb 10, 2017, 5:30 AM

Post #25 of 28 (481 views)
Re: Car cranking but not starting. Sign In

Not unless you can get a confirmed serial number from another site to match up.

There are literally thousands of carb variations with different emissions packages and they are matched up by the serial numbers, maybe not as many for your year but California always had something different.

Some of the carb rebuilding sites also have Ebay pages and the prices are usually higher on Ebay.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.







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