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93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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juntjoo
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Jan 27, 2014, 10:51 PM
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93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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I received a used transmission in the mail, an f5m33, for a turbo 93 Mitsubishi eclipse, to replace mine who's gears wore out, got a Quaife LSD while I was in there, switched the stock differential out with it, then proceeded to go through the "shimmy" process with solder, and I went ahead and did all shafts too, not just the differential, just to be... 'thorough', days later I've a pile of shims and scrap paper with numbers and equations of a mad five year old scientist, as the math is pretty simple, but my approach isn't. this is my first time inside a transmission and I can't imagine what happened as I only switched out the differential. anyway, it seizes at the differential and at the input shaft only when I tighten down on the bolts, shims or no shims(on the differential only). I tried with both the stock differential and the new lsd. same result. and i tested my old transmission which turns easilly at the input shaft by hand or at the differential case unbolted or bolted down 29ft/lbs. anyone with much experience rebuilding transmissions have an idea what I probably screwed up? http://img-cdn.filefactory.com/...d/m/5l8g43ooya1b.jpg
(This post was edited by juntjoo on Jan 27, 2014, 10:54 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jan 27, 2014, 11:11 PM
Post #2 of 22
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Re: 93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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First mistake "I received a used transmission in the mail"
Fatal mistake "while I was in there, switched the stock differential...."
So what's the surprise?
T
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juntjoo
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Jan 27, 2014, 11:31 PM
Post #3 of 22
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Re: 93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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"I tried with both the stock differential and the new lsd. same result."
it was shortly used rebuilt tranny. look(ed) really clean and in good condition when I got it. I'm going to bet it came in good condition until I give up trying to figure this out and bring it to aamco. hoping to get some ideas...
(This post was edited by juntjoo on Jan 28, 2014, 12:02 AM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jan 28, 2014, 12:18 AM
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Re: 93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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See if your pic can show directly..........
You've had to use shims and solder and who knows the real condition of used anything. Possibly just tightening it up messed up everything to do with this. Pretty much things need to fit just right before snug them up - splines, pins frequently used + any alignment key for such things.
Now nothing works properly. Changing from OE set up even at the age still unseen differences can blow the attempt fatally. Guess is since you can't turn it that is squished and pushed on the wrong areas, forces on bearings etc. on parts that didn't have anything wrong before this so it might a total loss now. I can't be sure and you can't be sure used parts were good to begin with.
The whole attempt was loaded with risks from the get go. Not sure what you should do now without a Mitsu tech taking a look to see if it's worth continuing at all,
T
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Discretesignals
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Jan 28, 2014, 5:37 AM
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Re: 93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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I've personally never heard of soldering shims inside a transmission. Sounds like you have tolerance stack up going on. What did you use to measure the end play after goofing up all the shimming?
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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juntjoo
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Jan 28, 2014, 7:32 AM
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Re: 93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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the solder is for measuring. put it between bearing races and case, tighten down and then you can measure the solder pieces for each shaft/differential. that part worked, it seems.
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nickwarner
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Jan 28, 2014, 8:05 AM
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Re: 93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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You say it siezes at the diff and the input shaft? Did you replace any bearings on the countershaft or mainshaft? If the bearings aren't right by a hair (I've gotten duds out of a brand new box before) or not properly installed (failure to fully seat bearing on shaft end or failure to fully drive in the race) everthing will bind up when tightened. Also, many manual gearboxes need to be properly indexed between mainshaft and countershaft. Strange to think that a single-countershaft trans is picky about where it needs to mate up, but it can. Did you mark with a paint pen or something the exact gear orientation between the gears on both shafts before you took it apart?
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juntjoo
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Jan 28, 2014, 8:28 AM
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Re: 93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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the only thing I took apart was the differential, and as you can see the gears and synchro assemblies at the top there, the poppet plugs for the shift rails and the reverse idler gear shaft to remove the case. none of that needs to be connected to have the case seat correctly right? I only replaced the bearings on the differential, as I bought the new one, and as I mentioned my last test was putting the old differential back in and got the same result. I didn't need to touch either the input, output, nor intermediate shafts. what about the bearing races? they're a b&%! to get in and out. and get stuck mid way and drop on their own, but it seems they seat up correctly once the case is resting on top. could they be a factor? did not mark with pen.
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nickwarner
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Jan 28, 2014, 8:57 AM
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Re: 93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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I'm not sure off the top of my head exactly what you have to have off to get the case off. Never done this trans before. I wanted to see how much you changed out in this trans with new parts. Since its was only the diff we can concentrate there. The old and new ones don't fit correctly now, but you did say you changed the races. But the race can spin in its bore? Thats not good. Can you get a feeler gauge under it? That would tell you if it is seated all the way.
Is this the original ring and pinion or did you put in an aftermarket one? If you remove the shims will it still bind up when tightening the case? DS asked about your measured backlash, and I'm curious to hear what it was too. Also, what was your gear pattern like? Did you check it with marking compound?
This seems too me like an assembly error, maybe too little backlash or excess preload. Also possible the ring and pinion are pressing into each other too hard which will also give you a bind. Perhaps a small burr of metal behind a bearing race. Really need to look back over your work with a fine-tooth comb to figure out what went wrong. Sometimes I even get a magnifying glass and a good light to see things in greater detail so an error will stand out to me.
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juntjoo
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Jan 28, 2014, 9:52 AM
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Re: 93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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here's the manual if anyone cares to take a gander. Link deleted ......... not visible without membership anyway
the races don't spin. the input and output tend to drop out where I gotta dig at the differential and intermediate ones. thanks for the replies. as for the rest, lots of info so tbc...
I'm only familiar with the solder method for checking clearance s which is outlined in the FSM, so checking indexes and the other things you mentioned I'll have to look into
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Feb 2, 2014, 5:51 PM)
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jan 28, 2014, 10:56 AM
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Re: 93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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When you used the solder method to determine end play and preload, did you use a micrometer to measure the thickness of the crushed solder? You didn't install a shim the same thickness as the crushed solder did you? If you did, it will cause your parts to bind. You need to measure the crushed solder than subtract the amount of end play that component is supposed to have. That will give you the correct shim to install.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jan 28, 2014, 10:57 AM)
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juntjoo
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Jan 28, 2014, 11:17 AM
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Re: 93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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yes, did that part correctly I'm sure as I did it several times and the existing shims more or less matched up with what my calculations called for. within a few hrs I'll try to have some more data. I will continue to play with it and hopefully find what I may have misplaced or something, if this tranny arrived like this, but I think not. only issue I noticed when receiving it was on the top of the case over what would be the output shaft is a cracked area that was filled in with I guess welding solder, I knocked it off because I hammered the area out. it previously was dented inwards slightly towards the top of the bearing/shaft. so I just knocked it out a bit and I'll have to cover the little cracks somehow. anyway, but I don't that is causing any issues, at this point at least
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juntjoo
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Feb 2, 2014, 5:39 PM
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Re: 93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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http://img-cdn.filefactory.com/embed/m/mfcnxo04xdr.jpg
http://img-cdn.filefactory.com/...d/m/2sgcpst3l0zr.jpg
first of all, how do you properly remove these bearing races without scratching things up? what exactly an I supposed to do with that hole up there right against the race? what tool?
and what about these gears? this is my old tranny, and I've already removed these gears from the one I'm working on but I did so with two flat head screw drivers which didn't feel very safe for the parts but as you can see, imagine the bolts out of the way, the shift rail and oil guide get in the way of that guillotine-looking gear removal tool I'm sure most of you get what I'm talking about, and the jaw pullers also do not fit on a setup like this. so unless there really is no tool for this situation other than two flat head screw drivers, would be nice to work correctly on these parts. I want to open up the old one to see how its assembled to help me figure out what is going on with the new (used)one I'm working on.
http://img-cdn.filefactory.com/...d/m/6nz70qncf47x.jpg
also, can anyone help with getting my images to display? thanks
(This post was edited by juntjoo on Feb 2, 2014, 6:03 PM)
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GC
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Feb 2, 2014, 7:49 PM
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Re: 93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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put a [ i m g ] in front of the url and a [ / i m g ] after. disregard the spaces
____________________________________________________
Willing to help, willing to learn... Rob
(This post was edited by GC on Feb 2, 2014, 7:52 PM)
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GC
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Feb 2, 2014, 7:54 PM
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Re: 93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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____________________________________________________
Willing to help, willing to learn... Rob
(This post was edited by GC on Feb 2, 2014, 7:59 PM)
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juntjoo
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Feb 2, 2014, 8:21 PM
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Re: 93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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thanks
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Discretesignals
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Feb 2, 2014, 8:28 PM
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Re: 93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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Ok...this is all goofy.
You went in to change out the differential. Then for some reason you messed with the end plays of all the other shafts and ended up with a bound up transmission. Now your stating you don't know how to remove the tapered bearing races which you have to remove to put your solder behind to figure out your end play measurements. Why mess with all those other shims and spacers when all you had to do was split the case, figure out the differential bearing preload, select the correct spacer for the diff, and be done with it? Now your going to dismantle another transmission and get parts all switched up. What are you using for service information?
Mits had a special tool to remove the bearing races that used those two slots on each side of the race cavity to pry the race straight up. Those tools are probably not even made anymore, so you have to make your own. If you browse other Mits forums, theres info on some other threads where the OPs fashioned their own tools and methods for race removal.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Feb 2, 2014, 8:47 PM)
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juntjoo
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Feb 2, 2014, 8:50 PM
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Re: 93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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I messed with all endplays because I had asked in another forum about the importance of checking the endplay of just the dif and they so stressed the importance that I decided to get familiar with the process and do them all over, in the hopes I'd end up with a better end result.
I don't know how to properly get them out, so when I previously removed them, several times, I did so scratching shims and the tranny case itself.
... hence the goofiness of this thread. I'm not coming in here on a white horse with much experience and answers. in fact I'm coming in here asking questions inexperienced ignorant and some may say goofy I guess. so I'll look into that special tool I'll need to fabricate. what about them gears? don't want to chip any teeth with the wrong tool
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Discretesignals
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Feb 2, 2014, 9:21 PM
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Re: 93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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Really the only time you should mess with end play on something like that is when you replace a component such as bearings/races, case halves, or shafts. Do you have the old spacers and know where they go? It is a good idea to measure end play before you take it apart also to see if it is out due to worn out crap.
Jaw puller is usually what you use to remove the 5th gears. The "guillotine" or bearing remover is really used to remove bearings or small gears from shafts where space permits. Sometimes you have to modify a puller to make it fit underneath the gear.
I've never seen the solder method before, but it seems like a good idea. If it were my transmission I would measure the end play using a dial indicator on the end of the shafts while prying the 5th gears up with the transmission on its side.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Feb 2, 2014, 9:35 PM)
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juntjoo
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Feb 2, 2014, 10:15 PM
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Re: 93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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yeah, that's what I figured, somehow I the enthusiasm of 'doing it right the first time' cause me to overreact. whatever. if I can figure it out eventually I'll know a good bit more than I did about shaft endplays and such. speaking of which, j just watched a few videos on dial indicators. cool looking tool. looks like a must have for anyone digging into their transmissions. tho I didn't get what you were suggesting as to how to check the endplays. I'm assuming you mean with the case (lightly bolted) on, transmission on its side and prying the fifth gear up and do what to check the endplay? sorry. clarification? thanks
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Hammer Time
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Feb 3, 2014, 3:45 AM
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Re: 93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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Well, it was on the Internet. It must be true..............
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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juntjoo
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Feb 4, 2014, 4:28 PM
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Re: 93 mitsubishi eclipse | after tightening down bolts on tranny case gear assembly seizes
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link deleted, ....... not allowed
SHIPPING 
is this the kind of tool that would remove these the races easy? have seen a lot of tools that look like this for pulling races and such and I'm not sure how these work but they look adjustable for diameter and would possibly fit under my races. again, I've done this already but each time I end up scratching things and I just want to start off with the right tools.
edit: oops, sorry.
(This post was edited by juntjoo on Feb 4, 2014, 7:53 PM)
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