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Overcharged, blown compressor gasket


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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Jul 29, 2017, 4:59 PM

Post #26 of 84 (690 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

Yeah, the image hosting is kind of tricky.

This thing does have a module controlling this so it's about impossible to troubleshoot.

It also has a dual pressure switch that should be looked at.






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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Jul 29, 2017, 5:06 PM)


jjrbus
User

Jul 29, 2017, 5:47 PM

Post #27 of 84 (676 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

My schematic is slightly different than yours and I am not the best at reading one. I am guessing I do not have a dual pressure switch and that is for 4 wheel drive, if that makes any difference? I do have a pressure switch but with one less wire unless it is tapped in somewhere else?


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Jul 29, 2017, 5:54 PM

Post #28 of 84 (672 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

The diagrams say the same thing, just indicated a little different. The 2WD doesn't have the cut-out relay. That is noted in the diagram.

You still have a module controlling things and there is no way to read it with a scan tool.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



jjrbus
User

Jul 29, 2017, 6:47 PM

Post #29 of 84 (666 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

I purchased a $12 uv light with glasses at Wal Mart and looked over the AC system tonight,
not sure of what I was looking for I spread a drop of pag oil I had left over from the original charge 2 years ago to see what it looked like under the light, it glows a bright green. The AC compressor is hard to access and there is no space between the clutch and compressor body to get a good view in there. I spent a good amount of time going over it. I see no leaks and no indication of leaking oil anywhere.

Any suggestions on what I should do next?


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Jul 29, 2017, 6:51 PM

Post #30 of 84 (664 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

So, how fast did it lose it's charge? It should be leaving a very large stain somewhere if it leaks as bad as you said.

If your front seal was leaking that bad the entire clutch would be stained. Look at the bottom where the oil would be running.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Jul 29, 2017, 7:03 PM)


jjrbus
User

Jul 30, 2017, 10:29 AM

Post #31 of 84 (645 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

As far as I know it did not lose it's charge, the AC blew cold the day before I took it to the shop! This is why I questioned the diagnosis, I am being told I have an overcharged system with a bad leak. I do not know much about AC but that does not pass the sniff test. I could speculate that the system was waaaaay over charged and leaked down to 34oz, anything is possible. Which is why I am not quick to call scam.

I went out this morning and double checked the compressor area for oil. The entire compressor area shows no signs of oil anyplace. This was not a quick peak, I looked it over, top, bottom, front, rear, sides, crawled under the RV and gave it a good look. No sign of any oil leakage!

Out of curiosity how much 134a would have to be put in to damage a system?


(This post was edited by jjrbus on Jul 30, 2017, 10:32 AM)


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Jul 30, 2017, 10:37 AM

Post #32 of 84 (639 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

I think you're right and he was just trying to make some money selling you a compressor. His diagnosis of an expansion valve doesn't add up either. I think you simply have an issue of the system not shutting down when it gets too cold as it should.

That could be due t the thermostat of the controller. You might want to just wait until it freezes again and maybe unplug the sensor and see what it does. If that doesn't shut it down, try jumping it out.

The sensor reads through a ground so make sure the wht/blu wire is grounded.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



jjrbus
User

Jul 30, 2017, 1:04 PM

Post #33 of 84 (625 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

They want to sell me more than a compressor, when I look at estimate there is also an evaporator , high and low side service port, and a condenser flush. I though condenser were only flushed when compressor failed?

To follow your advice I would need to recharge the system, which brings up a question. When the system is evacuated do I lose oil, if so how would I know how much to add when recharging?

You are referring to thermostat and controller. Is this the thermister and the AC amplifier??


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Jul 30, 2017, 1:10 PM

Post #34 of 84 (623 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

Yes, those.
are the components I'm talking about.

The text book method is the recovery machine separates the oil into a separate container and in a perfect world that container is emptied after every recovery and measured to know the amount to put back in.
It isn't always a perfect world though. If it is slowly recovered with a machine, you will have minimal oil loss, maybe an ounce but if you vent it and let it blast out, you will lose a lot.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



jjrbus
User

Jul 30, 2017, 1:33 PM

Post #35 of 84 (619 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

The system was evacuated in a shop with a machine. So should I add an ounce when recharging?

If I wanted to sell someone a new compressor I would spray some oil on it to make it at least questionable.

Thanks for all the time you have put into this, greatly appreciated.

You guys get over to Ft Myers and dinner is on me. Jim


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Jul 30, 2017, 1:40 PM

Post #36 of 84 (617 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

Yeah, I would put an ounce, no more.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



jjrbus
User

Jul 31, 2017, 8:34 AM

Post #37 of 84 (601 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

Thanks for all the input. The weather has me out of commission this week and have a few other things to do. Will do some reading and mull all this over and decide on a course of action. Wish one of you Floridians was closer or Tom would come visit his family.

I found the original thread from 2015 where you helped me with the conversion, that was the thread where I caused some confusion by trying to cool the entire RV with the cab air and skewed all the numbers. Reading that was very helpful.

http://autoforums.carjunky.com/Automotive_Repair_C1/Heating_or_AC_Issues_F8/93_Toyota_pickup_convert_to_134A_questions._P172835/

Will be back with more questions or results of what happens.


jjrbus
User

Aug 1, 2017, 9:21 AM

Post #38 of 84 (585 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

The grand prize winner is Hammer Time! Had nice weather this morning and this is bugging me. Pulled the cooling unit and tested the thermister. Shows 1500/1700 ohms in air put in ice water and goes to 1 ohm within 2 seconds, tried it in 50° water same thing. No slowly dropping like the chart indicates just straight to 1 ohm. Tried it several times with 2 different ohm meters, a digital and cheap analog.

Seems my option now is order a new thermister and do a comparison test, unless I am missing something?


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Aug 1, 2017, 3:04 PM

Post #39 of 84 (572 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

Well, you definitely shouldn't get the same reading in ice water or 50 degree water.

Does this thing actually insert into the evaporator or does it just read air temp. If it just reads air temp, you might want to change your testing method and maybe use the refrigerator or freezer without dipping it into liquid.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



jjrbus
User

Aug 1, 2017, 6:37 PM

Post #40 of 84 (566 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

   I learned something new today about multimeters, I had it on the wrong setting! It would go to 2000 which is the scale I had it on then go to 1. I had to put it on the 20k setting to get a higher readingBlush.

The probe is clipped to the evaporator.

The factory service manual calls for testing the thermister in 4 inch of ice water, I did get that right. The chart in the FSM shows a max of 5000 ohm at 32 degrees. My thermometer shows a reading in the ice water of 34°, the thermometer could be off 2°. The max ohm reading I got was 4470 ohms.

So now I am a bit lost I am not sure if that is within spec or not?

Sorry for the confusion. Jim


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Aug 1, 2017, 6:45 PM

Post #41 of 84 (562 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

The good meters are self ranging so you don't have to worry about that.

That reading sounds close enough.

I think it's going to require some testing while the problem is present.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



jjrbus
User

Aug 2, 2017, 6:13 AM

Post #42 of 84 (551 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

Thanks again for the response, It will take me a while to get this buttoned back up and will respond then.


jjrbus
User

Aug 5, 2017, 6:21 AM

Post #43 of 84 (534 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

I am prepping to recharge my system so am watching some videos on how to do it, Tom gave me detailed instructions on how to DIY and get it right which worked out very well. I have a vacuum pump and a set of manifold gauges.

On the You tube videos they are turning the 12 oz can's upside down as they fill. I have a memory of being told this is wrong and should not be done. Non of the tech's using larger jugs of refrigerant and scales turn it upside down. Is turning the can upside down right or wrong? Seems to be some disagreement on the net. I will be using 12 oz cans of Dupont 134a and have a scale. I need 16.5 oz for a 65% starting point as this was a R12 system in a 93 Toyota pickup.

The Youtubers are not putting the cans in warm water, which I remember being told to do. Color me confused, Jim


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Aug 5, 2017, 7:00 AM

Post #44 of 84 (533 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

This is where you really can mess up a whole system in seconds. Warning in YouTube some is plain WRONG! You can do this with 100% pure 12oz cans if you pay attention.


Come back to this but I'll add to it about liquid use more accurately below this - read it!


http://autoforums.carjunky.com/..._A/C_SYSTEMS_P45460/
Now, from a full vacuum and know what that means for where you are altitude counts. Ask if you don't get it. When held with low side (no need to do both some vehicle don't use a high side port at all.) Know capacity, weight your cans new to know they match with tap and hose on them! That's "tare weight" of all of it may find it isn't 12oz at all if cans don't match!


Now engine off with now a manifold set and adaptor so you can put yellow hose to 1st can it should almost all go into the vacuum as liquid - refresh, engine OFF!
that ends use of liquid for this.


Have pan of warm water ready and cans already warm not wildly hot - 120F is fine cans should say so. If all things right and know how much plain went into vacuum that is now vapor inside it's pressured up enough to engage compressors for a '93. Purge hose to cans allowing them to spit only. That isn't in the count if just a spit. Air is then out of the hose is a real enemy. Now run engine turn on A/C full blast fan on recirculate leave a door open for now, thermos in center vent now. Hook up can #2 to low side now A/C engaged be fast and can up dispense whole can (capacity is more than 24oz right?) it will suck it in. Warm the can, you'll feel it go cold and can't see that pressures can be equal nothing moves so warm it up or shut engine back off and stop.


Wait for a bit warming can up off car in water as needed and don't forget to purge it again of air.


When system is blowing cool air now oil is moving so risk of destroying a compressor is low because of that is what you are avoiding.


The rest of the charge once blowing cool you can take your time counting and weighing cans right to the amount by weight of known working amount.


Hope I didn't miss anything? Hey - If there's anything not right - noises, leaking connections - anything ABORT this for another try later all over again.


Pay attention and be fast to make it cool with engine running A/C on or stop. Got that?


Good luck - old saying, measure twice cut once there's no room to fail doing this,


Tom



jjrbus
User

Aug 5, 2017, 8:07 AM

Post #45 of 84 (528 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

Hey Tom. thanks for the quick response. I saw turning the can upside down in 3 videos and kept nagging at me that was not right. But the memory is not what it was so figured I better ask.

I get a real kick out of some of the You tube videos. Although some are great!

I wrote down the 134a oz that the system took last time but have no idea where I wrote it! Calls for 1.5-1.8 pound of R-12. I remember using less than 2 cans last time. You did teach me how to start at 65% and add a little at a time till it hit the sweet spot.


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Aug 5, 2017, 8:42 AM

Post #46 of 84 (520 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

Some reasons for legitimate discrepancies would include that liquid is faster and is. It's a liquid though and if engine is running plus the port is close to compressor you lock it up with liquid that can't be compressed up to blowing it up hopeless wrecking the system! Yikes. Default is fast vapor charging. Of course if you have the equipment and can dial in amount to put in with an engine off totally great - most folks aren't going to have that.


Left out of so much is how much "air" is invading your work, the system just from connecting things up like even silly checking tire pressure with a common gauge and small volume tire you lose some pressure with every check.


Same deal - know if there's a vacuum just disconnecting you lost it's full vacuum! Avoid that. Know where pressure is and vacuum is. Pressure travels from higher to lower. If source is lower pressure than what you are attached to it travels to the lesser of the two.
Handling refrigerant and understand it's properties is a science. Heat transfer is a course of study beyond what most people would understand.


It's a total course of understanding and properties of what "refrigerant" in this case is used. 134a is a smaller molecule than R-12 so leaks easier and is less effective at heat transfer with all things equal to R-12 so components are made to transfer heat faster you end up with acceptable or even great air conditioning.


Know that PAG oils are "hygroscopic" like brake fluid is. Try that with a glove it will wash off with plain water! With water/moisture you've altered the intended character of either in the case of PAG refrigerant oils it can turn acidic eating up components ends up in total destruction over time so avoided as much as possible to allow that.


Yes on starting with 65% but be ready to go to 70% if not working or blowing cool. OMG - this never ends. When you are charging you do need to stop and allow pressures, oils to get where they are stabilized at what they do and where they will be. Sometimes a drive around the block is helpful as you approach the end then only add tiny amounts if you are really sure it's off for conditions. Passing that "sweet" spot you would see output temps go UP! That's a problem to avoid. Better to be a touch low than pass that for too much.


****************************


The YouTube, what's out there on the web, products that claim superior performance and leak sealing are just WRONG but can't control what is out there.


On that jus think. They sell crap with claims anyone can do this, fix leaks, comes with a color gauge you did it right - we call those DEATH KITS! If thousands of hours of engineering and design thought some trick was better they would have made everything that way from the start.


******************
One thing is good if you are careful is that you can stop right where you are and continue later just not with engine still running and compressor on.


Last for this missive - write down what you did and when so later you both know how long it lasted, how much worked well or best so it can be duplicated later even if not by you info under the hood is very helpful - Sharpie by name makes silver or gold metal color to write on black items just FYI or black on a sticker if white I would think about painting with clear engine paint then stick it on is that sure and the dates.


Lots to all this - sorry for the read it saves being hurt #1 and very regrettable and avoidable failures up to destroying a system,


Tom



jjrbus
User

Aug 5, 2017, 6:01 PM

Post #47 of 84 (505 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

Thanks for the input. I have perfect example of what not to do. Know someone who keeps offering to show me how to do it. He goes to Wal Mart and buys the can with gauge which will tell you when it is right. He has replaced 6 yes SIX compressors in the last 4 years. Not because of anything he does, but the Chinese are putting out junk!

So one more question, Hammer time said to add no more than 1 oz of pag oil. The video;s are showing putting the oil in the yellow hose, same hose refrigerant goes in, is that an ok way to do it?


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Aug 5, 2017, 6:54 PM

Post #48 of 84 (501 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

Sure it is. The refrigerant will push the oil into the system. They mix together in the system anyway.

I wouldn't be so quick to blame those Chinese compressors. I use them every day. It's the guy doing the job that is causing the failures.

If he is relying on those death kits, he has no clue what he is doing.

The number one rule in refrigeration............ You cannot charge a system by pressure, especially a toy gauge that has no numbers on it.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



jjrbus
User

Aug 6, 2017, 5:34 AM

Post #49 of 84 (485 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

 

Putting oil in hose seemed OK, but better to ask. I am ready to go, but have no way to test pressure switch until system is back together so ordered a new one and waiting on that and the 134a has not arrived yet. I detest throwing parts at something but seems like the easier softer way.


jjrbus
User

Aug 8, 2017, 2:56 PM

Post #50 of 84 (469 views)
  post locked   Re: Overcharged, blown compressor gasket  

 I have checked the diverter door? (the door that separates the evaporator from heater core and it is functioning properly. But there are remnants of foam on it which appear to have been a seal at one time, if I had to guess about 1/8" thick. There is no way to tell how thick it was or exactly what it covered. It would also be extremely difficult to clean off old and try to replace.

How important is it, worth the effort or not?






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