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AC 2004 Sable Wagon are these PSI OK
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sgkent
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Aug 25, 2019, 1:32 PM
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AC 2004 Sable Wagon are these PSI OK
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1st time posting here. Have a 2004 Sable Wagon 115,000 miles the AC that quit running last week then ran ok later the same day. Pressure seemed a tad low, so thought either operator error or pressure switch issue maybe. Using charts I found on line for similar Ford products, and pressure temp charts, I charged the system as follows. [note: I had trouble finding a definitive chart for the 2004 Sable wagon or Ford Taurus Wagon, and there are generic articles online where the pressures posted don't agree with the Ford charts for similar cars, so I have no idea if what I did is correct or not. Example - Ford shows a 2004 Explorer high side of 240 PSI at 85 F to be well within a normal range on the Ford chart, yet the generic R134A rules like double the temperature and add 50 PSI, or multiple by 2.3 to get the desired high side are a much lower pressure:(85F x 2 + 50 = 220 PSI) (85F x 2.3 = 196 PSI)]
Here are the results. I need to know if these are acceptable or not. I am guessing the low side is a bit low maybe requiring replacing the orifice tube or cleaning the screen, and replacing the receiver dryer etc.. I am the original owner and this is the first time the AC has been checked. 15 years old and 115,000 miles.
Ambient temp 102+ F Humidity 21%, Static 70 - 75 PSI. Once stabilized took RPM to appx 1500 - 2000, charged to where low side 42 PSI, high side 325 PSI. No external fans on car. When car fans would come on pressure would fall to 310 - 315 PSI. Took about a can and a half of r134a. Had to use a side puncture tool because the older brass top mount would not consistently vent can. Ford chart shows low side was about 10 psi lower than it should have been.
Next morning. Cleaned out radiator and condenser quite well with water and compressed air wand I use on HVAC coils. Aimed two big fans at radiator area. Static was 95 PSI. Temp 85 F w appx 30% humidity, 1800 RPM, low side 32 PSI, High side 235 PSI. Vents about 42 F.
That said, per the Ford charts the low side is about 10 PSI low, high side is normal. From generic R134a charging recommendations on some older sites the low side is correct but the high side is high.
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Hammer Time
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Aug 25, 2019, 3:07 PM
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Let me make one important point real clear.
YOU CANNOT CHARGE A SYSTEM BY PRESSURES!
It sounds like you are about to destroy your compressor with those pressures.
The system needs to be evacuated and recharged with the exact specified weight of refrigerant. Then and only then can the pressures mean anything.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Aug 25, 2019, 3:22 PM
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IDK what freaking charts you found that were vehicle specific but no way. You must know REAL temps coming in thru grille not another temp, while knowing RPM, compressor known engaged, fan(s) on or full when two speeds, while looking for center vent temps all at once! It's quite the trick to do that, that way.
Static pressure with a known area temp best if you can do engine cool or test area and lines with a touchless thermos the chart will read almost exactly as this below...…
Now if lower than that it's either empty or close or you are seriously dealing with not pure 134a something's all wrong.
Best as you said I think side tapping a can IDK what type you have there's a switch for the small cans need an adaptor now to use older taps from tops are supposed to self seal - good luck with those??
Best when all over the place is vacuum down to a well held vacuum and charge right to the ounce listed Underhood. Do NOT allow air in system now can be a pest even purging lines of hose depending on the hose end you have. Dumb just got dumber with those.
Now if you do that properly you have something to work with.
Need to really know condenser is clean even check in between it an radiator can hide crap.
You ended up with OK performance the pressures are so dependent on what it like right when you took them it's nuts.
Basically with fans on, actual temp and a raised idle you look for about 2.5 X the temp in F. That's when and if A/C would normally be used.
Super high real temps not always good and below 80 AYOR to get real by pressures alone.
Know that pressures NEVER tell you how much is in the system just what temps are where if pure product. Moisture inside all bets off.
Air will bounce around pressures nothing credible need to start over.
It's hard and made to look easy and you can do it. It just takes a LOT of know how, temp testing as said knowing what should be where.
If you want look up top that "Charging Procedures" is a clue and a looooong read and still not complete.
Watch out for side taps and the new crap being sold if you have other small cans really need both top tap types or the brand Mastercool adaptor or all bets off.
Oh - yes to a fan at the vehicle that or can spray mist condenser will cool better than air so invalid for the final pressures if they are within norms is still the exact scene when you observe them,
T
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Hammer Time
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Aug 25, 2019, 4:06 PM
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Nobody said the pressure chart was wrong. What was stated is you cannot know how much refrigerant is in the system by pressures.
WAAAAY too many varying factors.
You can use pressures to help diagnose a system once you have a KNOWN specified WEIGHED charge but you cannot use the pressures to determine the charge.
the smartest thing you can do is throw those charts away. They serve no purpose and are actually deceptive.
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Hammer Time
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Aug 25, 2019, 4:16 PM
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That is 100% correct.
Let me add that I live in South Florida and specialize in AC so this happens multiple times a day.
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Hammer Time
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Aug 25, 2019, 4:22 PM
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PS, if you have normal cold air out the vents there would never be any reason to check refrigerant level.
When there is a problem with performance, evac and Recharge it ALWAYS the first step, assuming the compressor was engaged.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Aug 25, 2019, 4:23 PM)
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sgkent
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Aug 25, 2019, 4:35 PM
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I appreciate your honesty. At this time I am looking for an opinion on the pressures after topping it off and not going a full evac and recharge. If you aren't comfortable with that its OK. The system is 15 years old, will need some work when I have the time to replace seals, probably will replace the compressor with a new one, the orifice tube and dryer etc.. I have been section 609 certified for 25 - 28 years and once worked as an automotive mechanic. Right now I only have time to top it off, and I am not paying shops around here who do crappy work to screw it up worse. When I have the time I will buy a recovery unit, and a vacuum pump and do it your way. Until then it is topping off only.
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Hammer Time
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Aug 25, 2019, 4:42 PM
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You're missing the whole point. Those pressures mean absolutely nothing for diagnostics if it doesn't have the exact specified charge in the system so if you are trying to find a problem, you just ruined your chances of finding it.
What I can tell you is that if you continue to operate that compressor at over 300PSI, you will soon be replacing a compressor and condenser.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Aug 25, 2019, 5:13 PM
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OMG did I see in this mess you don't own a vacuum pump? I'm not the law but if it doesn't work that's wasting product if nothing else.
Yes I do this just did a few weeks ago never mind hot out it was real 118F where I was on hot asphalt, full sun it was real right there and then.
Two sets of everything and retrofit adaptors so I can purge air out of the dang new crap hose ends lock are one way but air inside - nice.
The factory new couldn't spend the time to hold a vacuum like always suggested the assembly line would stop so you just know by default is why there's new desiccant in there is only good once. Jury still out if that can be made to work twice.
Yes you can is the answer you need just overwhelming fast and accurate observations. I do know my altitude do you? That matters! I'm inland New England does get wild hot just doesn't last all day ground never gets hot like other places just the surface in sun.
Think I said up top YOU CAN'T know how full as in weight of the charge. It's an algorithm of everything right that moment.
Think hard - real hard and you can. The lower system capacities make accuracy that much more important or yes you will fail and cause harm. More harm comes from touching anything than being ready with everything or start all over.
Sorry this turned out to be such a long thread and discussion it's worth it now and then but can't be written or mapped out so easily just way too many variables to take in all at once can't stop once underway "topping off" is hard and I do know what I'm doing long before any of this junk to stop you from touching it.
It's just not as easy as some chart - leave it at that.
I do wonder why this site has an A/C section it's a specialty all by itself.
Do notice in many vehicles now there's no high side port on them at all so just how would you approach one of those? You have to know what you are doing fully no mistake allowed or expect troubles or disasters,
Tom
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sgkent
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Aug 25, 2019, 8:37 PM
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FWIW - when it was 84.8 F here yesterday the static pressure was 95 PSI on both sides. That is dead on to the chart you posted Tom. If you or Hammer Time want to add anything please do.
2004 Mercury Sable Wagon, vulcan engine 12V OHV engine. I will probably replace the compressor and accumulator drier once I have some spare time. The car isn't worth the $3000 it costs here in town to do work like this. If you can add something constructive to the questions below please do. I am 68, and the last answers came across like my dad used to, military officer - everything had to be just right his way. He died in 2010. Six months ago we learned that we have a half-brother he knew of but never mentioned a word of in 60 + years to anyone in the family including all of us even though he would have disowned us for doing the same. Nor did he write one birthday card to the kid. So if you can help please do but no lectures. I have remanufactured to original manufacturer specs Indy Cosworth engines, and Ferrari engines in my time. I understand what perfection is. When I have the time the Sable will be repaired properly or retired.
Q1 - once the system is evac and the orifice tube location opened, what seals that connection when threading the office tube location back together? Are replacement o-rings and/or ferrules needed or is the threaded system some kind of self-contained connection? Trying to determine what parts I will need here besides the new orifice tube with its o-rings.
Q2 - I watched a video on Remove and Replace the compressor out the top of the engine,by the radiator and up to the driver side. There was a different video requiring removing the power steering, and it looked not only like a lot more work but he cut and damaged things that he should not have (although he said he was ASE Certified). Already replaced the power steering pump on this car, and it is a PITA to remove. If you have pulled a compressor across the radiator and out the driver side front on one of these 2001 - 2005 12V Sable / Taurus, how hard is it to keep the compressor in a position where the oil doesn't drain out accidentally while you are removing it?
Q3 once the flange on the back of the compressor is off, how hard is it to take off the accumulator drier and replace that section? Are there just two Ford connectors that need to be removed and O-rings replaced when the new one goes on? I could not get a good look at the part on the video.
Q4 Many places sell compressor kits with accumulator drier and all the O-rings needed etc. Ford gets about $400 - $600 for the parts while places like Amazon, Napa, Rock Auto get $150 - $200 for the kit. I haven't checked my local PolarBear. They are the only AC parts house left in this area other than Napa, Autozone, OReillys etc.. Is the compressor in their kits usually the same brand that Ford uses or is it a cheap Chinese clone? On my Acura, Honda wanted $$$$$ for a compressor while the exact same model Sanden (or maybe Sanyko) from PolarBear was $. I want new only, no remanufactured.
Thank you for your time.
Merlin the Wrench
(This post was edited by sgkent on Aug 26, 2019, 1:42 AM)
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Hammer Time
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Aug 26, 2019, 4:29 AM
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Apparently you just don't get it. Perfection has nothing to do with this.
Everything in this system is based on having the correct amount of refrigerant. Too much is a problem. Too little is a problem so having the correct charge is not perfection. It is basics.
The next thing is why are you changing the compressor in the first place. I have seen nothing that indicates a bad compressor. What I did say is that you currently have the system overcharged and that will ruin the compressor if left that way because the pressure is way too high. That would be your fault, not the compressor's.
As for the orifice tube replacement. These is a threaded connection with an O-ring.
I don't even know what the original issue is that you are trying to fix. This thread started out with you just overcharging the system for what appears to be no reason at all.
If you actually want help and intend to listen, that's fine but we aren't going to waste our time if you have no intention of listening.
The very first step is having the correct amount of charge. Only then can we recognize other issues if there are any.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Aug 26, 2019, 5:44 AM
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I need to be concise, we all do or this is unreadable. Your 1st line says you may proceed till you find a stopper to fix or declare it isn't worth fixing for YOU and the vehicle/thing you wanted it to work.
The properties of "condensable" gases are known so there are charts. Knowing if they are pure is the beginning of the snags. More than ever you can get lousy new product, not pure, faked, cloned but the label says it's wonderful.
Now you need to use it in a specific machine, this case a vehicle which way of really two is it done then move on.
The stoppers for me and location a problem. It reached 88F yesterday and bounced off 45F overnight. Normal - it does that!
Next problem: The product is not cold depends on where stored so unusable till it's all warmed up. Oh my - making an appt. to do this at a set date time is real difficult alone have the stuff and equipment that soon has to be put out of the way other things more important soon or now may not touch it next season. Not even practical if it's your biz and made the investment unless endless stream of needs out there make it practical plus climate controlled area to store stuff both hot and cold times.
Stuck - most don't bother it's not worth it as same area or shop has tons more things to do and service or repair.
Dealers of new kinda have to deal with what comes in get stuck and have to lose and expect to make up the difference with other things.
So, the experience is even seasonal you are NOT fixing this stuff when it's BELOW ZERO air temps. Yes it still can be done a total waste of energy to heat up a whole area equipment and vehicle/machine and make it work so it lasts.
Step one was a problem it get worse from there. Explaining all of it is YEARS to just begin for each situation you may see.
A lot of trust in the tools and measuring of things knowing or a clue they are accurate OMG lost again. Have two of everything check one with the other see if they agree.
This site just BTW: The end all answer is disappointing that it's just not practical or a DIY sport.
Why and you know it: The result of mistakes set the job back worse than if you didn't touch it by a LOT many times it's hard to suggest folks do this.
Sorting that out another hassle.
What to do? It's hard I said that. Years of seeing things fail is the learning curve hopefully on things that don't matter if it stay not working such as A/C now just integral with vehicles have to deal with it if only so other things can work.
Said I'd try to be concise and just wasn't again!
Yes you can do this: Know every last thing about it and have all equipment necessary then don't make any mistakes.
Lost again to explain the hassles involved. The more you understand this crap the more you wish you didn't know a thing about it sometimes,
Tom
The videos and dedicated site for just this are NOT interactive so in this age of the web knowing every last thing about anything is also false mixed in.
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sgkent
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Aug 26, 2019, 10:06 AM
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Tom in answer to your question. The AC failed to blow cold on Thursday when it was 107 F outside. Cathy was in traffic, stop & go, coming home from work, and she near passed out from the heat. She pulled over after she near passed out, stopped the car, restarted it and the air started working. That could be many things - climate control, a bad compressor clutch, low pressure so the low pressure switch tripped then when the car got hot the pressure came up just enough to work again, bad pressure switch, bad relay, door actuator hung etc.. I wasn't there. How can I fix it when it is working? I thought about it, picked up a couple cans of real R34a just in case (I could take back if I didn't need them) - not a substitute, not with additives, but real virgin R134a from the largest NAPA warehouse in Sacramento, and checked the pressure with my R134a gauge set. The pressure was significantly lower than it should have been. It was 105 F when I checked, and the pressure was about 70 PSI static which is closer to 69F on your saturation chart. I inspected for leaks visually and found none, 15 year old car that the AC has never been serviced. I spent hours the night before finding the Ford, mastercool, MAC, etc charts on pressure vs temp for R134a, and used those charts to bring the pressure into line with the outside temp at that time using three calibrated thermometers which agreed that it was 105F one foot in front of the car. One was a calibrated lab thermometer. When the pressure was at the low end of the charts I stopped. During the charging I noticed that the low side was consistently lower than the charts would predict. To me that says orifice tube or drier obstruction. That means recover and evac, then change or clean the orifice tube, and replace the drier since the system will have been opened. For the last 5 years we have occasionally smelt oil, not engine oil occasionally on hot days. It is a faint sometimes there issue. Not the oil pan, not the rocker covers, not the trans, I can't find it. So it occurred to me that maybe in hot weather the compressor seal might be throwing a tiny amount of oil and refrigerant onto the exhaust near there. No proof, and it doesn't show. So since I will replace the orifice tube, and the drier etc., I might as well get the compressor too. I've had four cars where the compressor went out around 120,000 miles, and this car has 117,000 on it. Three of those cars I did the work and they worked flawlessly when I was done. One a ASE certified shop did it and it never worked right again. I prefer to do the work myself. Yes, I would pay someone if I knew they would do the job right, BUT the shops around here quote $800 parts and $2200 labor to replace a kit that costs $150 - $200 wholesale, and takes maybe five or six hours to do the work. Do the math. That is a markup of 400% on parts, and labor at $400 an hour. My doctor doesn't charge that. There is no way to defend that price. It would be like your 7-11 charging $236 for a six pack because they were the only place that sold beer nearby. It is called gouging and there is NO ethical way to defend it. If someone told me we'll mark the parts up 25% if you pay for them upfront, and charge $125 an hour labor to do the job, and we will do the job to best practices and put every bolt back in place I would use their services. Around here when you go in a shop you are likely to see an 21 year old kid just out of jr college they are paying $20 an hour while they keep the remainder for themselves. The old guys take the easy jobs on things and let the young ones do the work they don't want to do. Want to see an air filter the dealer told me was fine a month ago. My 2015 MDX has been thru 2 dealers, and two factory CPO inspections, and since I have owned it three oil changes. Do these look like clean filters? This is why I do my own work. I got tired of being ripped off. If on the 2004 Sable wagon replacing the compressor, drier etc., pressure switch, and orifice tube doesn't solve the reason it quit and it comes back then I will know to look elsewhere. Or I can wait until it fails, or tell Cathy not to use it and let her pass out and crash. You tell me. I don't care if the failure was related to low pressure. The pressure was low, the suction side is low, and the compressor has close to 120,000 miles on it.
The filters on the left are new. The ones on the right are from my MDX that passed an inspection by ASE and Acura / Honda certified mechanics. They specifically inspected the cabin filter just a week before these pictures were taken because I asked them to be sure it was clean and the area free of debris. The car was suffering from reducing MPG until I discovered the dirty filters. Why should I trust others when many don't do their jobs. It is a national epidemic.
(This post was edited by sgkent on Aug 26, 2019, 10:11 AM)
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sgkent
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Aug 26, 2019, 10:36 AM
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good news I e-mailed my HVAC guy whose company is a 100 point customer service do it right company to see if he had any mobile AC friends. He called to say he didn't and he thought all the automotive AC shops around here were way over priced, but that he'd be happy to lend me their spare recovery unit and pump for a couple days when I get ready to do the work. So that part is solved. I can buy a clean recovery tank and new cylinder when I get ready too. His best friend owns one of the biggest HVAC companies in the USA so maybe he'll be able to get me a couple dollars off on a recovery tank. I think that the R134A has to come from a mobile air source and not a HVAC warehouse because they operate under the 608 section and I don't have a 608 cert.
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Hammer Time
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Aug 26, 2019, 11:23 AM
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I'll tell you. It sounds like you are creating more problems than you started with.
Your original problem sounds like either a weak clutch coil or a bad relay which is built into the CCRM.
Electrical problem, not gas.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Aug 26, 2019, 11:25 AM)
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sgkent
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Aug 26, 2019, 1:46 PM
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there is no CCRM in a 2001 - 2005 Sable/Taurus from what I understand. Relay and a fuse upfront in the box. It could be at issue but the door actuator, and the compressor clutches have a high failure rate too. Since you said I must evacuate it, and the suction side is low I might as well replace the orifice tube. Since the system will be open that means the accumulator drier should be replaced too as best practice. Since you agree that the clutch is a high failure rate it is just as much trouble at this point to replace the compressor and clutch than just the clutch. What if the oil smell turns out to be an occasional leaking of PAG oil under pressure and that is why the system was a bit low? Is it really worth replacing the seal and the clutch on a compressor that has 120,000 miles on it? Seems like a false economy at that point. Will that fix everything? Only time will answer that.
Personally I think that the orifice tube is a little clogged because when the pressure falls below 30 on the suction side, the system cycles off for 8 to 9 seconds. The high side never gets really high when this is happening. It was doing that when it was 85F outside but not when it was 105F outside and the high pressure was 310 PSI. I don't think that low side 30 on the suction is normal when the high side is 230 - 235 at 85 F, but maybe it is. You work on them for a living but I don't. Of course the cycling has been going on for a long time in this car so it may be normal. When it happened the high side pressure was well within the normal working range, and when it was 105F outside and the pressures were higher it didn't do it, so that points to the low side switch, which will be replaced too when the system is apart. Whether these things caused the problem Cathy experienced I don't know. But if the problem is there it needs to be fixed. I have a VW type 4 engine and transmission to pull and work on. Been dragging my feet but some parts have to go to powder coat tomorrow. Have a great day. That said, hear Dorian is headed towards PR in 48 hours or so and the projected path is the east coast of FL unless the recurve is greater. Be safe.
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Hammer Time
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Aug 26, 2019, 2:07 PM
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It appears most all of what you say is correct. I checked on the relay and it is in the battery junction box. Might be worth swapping it with another one like it.
It does sound like the tube may be restricted also but you have to ask, what restricted it. If you haven't put any sealer into the system, then it would have to be debris from a compressor coming apart.
As for the front seal, just look for an oil stain to know if it's leaking. I really doubt you lost enough refrigerant oil to smell though. That is likely a leaking valve cover gasket.
If all these things are true, then yes, a new compressor is in order. No Remans!. New only. You would also want to change the condenser at the same time because that will be totally restricted and being that it is a "bypass" type, it can't be flushed nor tested and must be replaced. Not doing that will lead to another compressor failure. Those FS compressors use teflon rings and they melt and go through the system to the O-tube.
These systems cannot run with those high head pressures. Normal for these operating correctly is no higher than 225-250 on a hot day and even less on a moderate day. I you have an exact charge and your pressures are higher than that, then you need to take a hard look at the fan motor condition.
The amount of charge is very critical.
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sgkent
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Aug 26, 2019, 4:28 PM
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thanks Hammer Time. When the orifice tube comes out if it shows any debris then I'll follow your advise on the condenser too. I understand the risk.
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