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97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge


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Rayscopes
User

Aug 11, 2014, 5:51 AM

Post #1 of 43 (3117 views)
  post locked   97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

A/C Help
I had a leak in the condenser, identified with leak dye and a UV light. I replaced the condenser, filled it with 1ml PAG oil. Applied a vacuum for 1/2 hour. Then when filling I turned the can upside down and opened the low pressure port and at some point the hi side went to 400+ so I immediately shut it down, applied vacuum for over an hour, now it won't take any R134a, low side goes to 60PSI, hi to about 200 but refrigerant doesn't go in and no cold air. Do I need a new compressor?

Its a 1997 Jeep Wrangler Sahara


Tom Greenleaf
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Aug 11, 2014, 6:21 AM

Post #2 of 43 (3112 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

Just some point before continuing: A silly stone in road can take out a condenser anytime so alone NBD just too bad.


Now - depending on how fast and when it leaked down the amount of oil lost is a guess based some on the mess it made AND attempts to find out how much was possibly still in old condenser. Only way to know for sure is flush out all and start from known amount of proper oil all over. A chart that may not be accurate show this holds 20oz 134a from empty totally and 8 oz of PAG 100 from empty as well. Part of a system you can't know for sure what was lost so again is educated guessing. Must use right products only nothing with sealers or generic magic claims on containers.


If port for low isn't behaving it too could need adusting, replacement or a different hose end as some just don't cooperate and when you lose count of how much is in system without air mind you, you are lost again.


I'll give a link to charging procedures also locked in this section but add now that charging into a vacuum you can get a fair amount in with engine off (cold helps lots) and warmer source of gas as a liquid will instantly become a gas only till they equalize and then move on to finish always keeping track of how much is in by weight.


Oil may not be enough IMO and an 8oz system usually wouldn't mind being up some from exact and harmful if too low from exact to compressor. Refrigerant charge really wants to be real close - no guessing. Depending on equipment you are using know the weight from empty or it will be erratic and cooling suffers with either too much or too little plus possible damage so it a must to know.


Link to basic charging procedures could be longer than it is but helpful. Look for it up top at this section is link to it doesn't work for you. Must have knowns to begin knowing if more is wrong if this happened faster or slower could harm more but need to begin making knowns and keep track...... T


Procedures..........
http://autoforums.carjunky.com/..._A/C_SYSTEMS_P45460/



Hammer Time
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Aug 11, 2014, 7:47 AM

Post #3 of 43 (3102 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  


Quote
Then when filling I turned the can upside down and opened the low pressure port


That's a real good way to crash your compressor.



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Rayscopes
User

Aug 11, 2014, 8:55 AM

Post #4 of 43 (3100 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

The leak was on the top back side facing the radiator so a stone couldn't have hit there. I had recharged it a couple times before and the system was working fine until the charge leaked down and the air was warm but the clutch was still cycling and there was pressure in the system. I'm thinking there was some contamination in the new condenser or turning the charge can upside down caused liquid 134a to flow into the system that failed the compressor. In any case, does this sound like a failed compressor?


Hammer Time
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Aug 11, 2014, 9:21 AM

Post #5 of 43 (3099 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

You can't know anything doing things the way you are doing them. Until the system is fully evacuated and recharged with the exact weight using a charging station with the engine off, you aren't going to be able to tell anything.



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Rayscopes
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Aug 11, 2014, 11:24 AM

Post #6 of 43 (3089 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

I fully evacuated the system and held at about 28inHg vacuum for 1 1/2 hrs. The system immediately goes to about 60 psi low side, 200 psi hi side with less than 1/4lb charge and won't accept any more.


Hammer Time
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Aug 11, 2014, 11:40 AM

Post #7 of 43 (3087 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

Same answer.



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Rayscopes
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Aug 11, 2014, 1:37 PM

Post #8 of 43 (3081 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

Ok, I'm confused. I don't see how that is much different.


Tom Greenleaf
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Aug 11, 2014, 2:01 PM

Post #9 of 43 (3076 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

What are you using for equipment? What for a source of new refrigerant - 12oz cans or a larger bottle and are you using a scale at all?


What is you altitude above sea level as 28Hg is suggesting you are about 2,000 ft. above or gauges all wrong and you don't know which knobs or levers to read what.


Bet is cheap gauge set and tap to little cans which is doable and correctly but temp of can will drop and so will pressure quickly and equal the vehicle's pressure and stop there.


No point in continuing as there's so much to know temp vs pressures, where they should be what it really is a course in technical training plus knowing your equipment.


Liquid charging is for near always a pro in a rush done thru high side and we about know we aren't dealing with that.


You may have locked pressure in high side gauge from a new can at only 130F temperature easy if small can left in a car or hot pavement then drops as discharged.


If this leak found (may be more too) was slow and ran system till it gradually had inadequate cooling or not cooling but for some time you probably wrecked the compressor at least enough to blow debris if anything about your reading are correct still working but plugged up pretty solid.


Did you even bother reading "CHARGING PROCEDURES IN AUTOMOTIVE SYSTEM" posed here? That if you paid any attention should scare the crap out of you to not touch A/C even for this and send it out,


T



Hammer Time
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Aug 11, 2014, 2:41 PM

Post #10 of 43 (3070 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  


Quote
Ok, I'm confused. I don't see how that is much different.


Because I can't begin to tell you what is going on this way. Until a full charge is pushed in using a charging station with the engine off the pressures don't mean a thing. I don't know what it is you are doing that is preventing the system from charging off the cans so until we have a known full charge we can't tell you much.



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Rayscopes
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Aug 11, 2014, 2:58 PM

Post #11 of 43 (3069 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

I have a professional set of Robinair gages since I learned my lesson with the cheap garbage years ago. That's another story. Anyways my system has been leaking for 10 years and I charge it up every summer. It now only lasts 1 week. The system has never been down to 0 pressure, except for 5 mins when disconnecting/connecting lines for evap/condenser swapping. The last time I took it it a professional, he told me a had a small leak in the evaporator. Therefore, I decided to pull the dash and steering wheel and swap it out. I added 2 ml of PAG oil to the new evaporator at that time. When applying the vacuum to charge it back up I let it sit for 15 mins and noticed it dropped a couple PSI so that wasn't good. I charged it with refrigerant with UV dye and it worked great for a week. Then I bought a $50 LED light and removed the radiator to find the leak on the back side of the condenser. I left this info all out before and there's more if you want to hear it. I've charged systems on many vehicles before including R12 systems. I've read the procedures and am a Mechanical Engineer by trade so I have at least a quarter of a brain.

Sorry about the vacuum reading, I meant 28 PSI, not InHg. I'm charging with the 12oz cans. I fill on the low side. The can was outside temp 80F. I put it in warm water to keep it from frosting befor I had the superhigh pressure (400). I was thinking maybe it drew in some water but even with a loose fitting, wouldn't the can pressure prevent that? When I said the pressures are 60/200 I mean they are perfectly stable there and do not change. That is why I'm pretty sure there is a major problem. Thanks for your responses, I do appreciate your help.


Discretesignals
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Aug 11, 2014, 3:13 PM

Post #12 of 43 (3068 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

Wrap your fingers around the low and high side lines. High side should be warm and the low side should be cold.

You really should have a scale and cylinder to do this or even an ACRER machine. I never liked the cans because you really don't know how much is in them and you have to have the system running to charge it.

The machine we have at work can charge the system to the correct weight before you even turn the system on. That way when you do turn it on there is plenty of refrigerant to circulate the oil around, which is very important for a new compressor, and you don't have to worry about slugging the compressor with liquid refrigerant.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.

(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Aug 11, 2014, 3:23 PM)


Hammer Time
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Aug 11, 2014, 3:40 PM

Post #13 of 43 (3059 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

Yes, I don't doubt you have successfully charged systems before. This time you have a problem and just throwing those pressures at us doen't tell us much because we are not there to see what is happening during the charge process.
Does this have an electric fan?
Is it pulling plenty of air through the condenser?



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Rayscopes
User

Aug 11, 2014, 3:41 PM

Post #14 of 43 (3058 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

The cold side usually frosts over and it's not even cool. I can feel the weight of the can and it is still full. The compressor is very warm. I don't want to run it more than necessary at this point. I think my next step is to remove the compressor and take it apart to see how much damage there is. Should I flush the system or even replace the new condenser since I'm wondering if it had some contamination in it which caused this issue? I know there may be minimal benefit to flushing it since the passages are so narrow.


Hammer Time
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Aug 11, 2014, 3:43 PM

Post #15 of 43 (3056 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

That condenser could be defective. Don't go taking the compressor apart. You don't have a problem there.

Are you sure you removed all the shipping caps from the condenser when you installed it?



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Aug 11, 2014, 4:31 PM)


Discretesignals
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Aug 11, 2014, 3:45 PM

Post #16 of 43 (3055 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

Honestly if I were you I would head down to your local repair shop that does ac work and have them evac, vacuum, and recharge the system to the correct weight for you. Then see how the system is operating.

You can't diagnose it properly unless you know it has the correct weight of pure virgin R134A in it.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.

(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Aug 11, 2014, 3:47 PM)


Rayscopes
User

Aug 11, 2014, 5:10 PM

Post #17 of 43 (3049 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

I've charged enough systems and observed gage operation enough to know that this isn't right. You're caught up in the way I'm charging it but I don't think you're listening. It was under 28 PSI vacuum for over an hour. I attached a 1 lb can and the system capacity is 1.25lb. I filled in the low side. It won't even take 1/4 of the can. There is only pure virgin R134A in the can. I guess you can't see what's going on. The pressures are dead stable and do not move, something is wrong with that.

I did think I forgot a shipping plug at first since I only had 1 on my toolbox but I found the 2nd one in front of the radiator.


Hammer Time
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Aug 11, 2014, 5:33 PM

Post #18 of 43 (3048 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

It doesn't sound like the condenser came to the party for one reason or another.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Tom Greenleaf
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Aug 12, 2014, 5:48 AM

Post #19 of 43 (3030 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

Just notes as late now on the thread: Rayscopes, Hg# is inches of mercury - the liquid metal not PSI. IMO even if I stand alone the "little" cans are the same product but how used is a major issue and should be weighed just the same and even new as some you'll find don't contain what it stated and by brand names the container doesn't weigh the same either.


It's a small capacity system and you stated you boost it every year for a decade now. Wouldn't take much of a leak with a system holding just 20oz to be off too much to work. DS (Discrete signals) noted and YOU should know that oil doesn't move unless the system has enough refrigerant to cool it's on borrowed time for that time - minutes if that. No doubt this is why the best of the best is to have it at full charge (machines that can do that not really practical for DIY use) so you are routinely running low oiling at some point if only needing a recharge so often. Factor that PAG oils absorb moisture too. That tiny bit of air in hoses time after time has that moisture if not paid strict attention to oil will go acidic - system will have problems but perhaps not right away but think you've run out of second chances about now.


Pressure of "O" (zero) you are confused with unless my fault and read you wrong. ZERO pressure in a system is really only when opened or a wild hole of a leak.


Refrigerant has a VERY strict relationship with exact properties and state by temperatures and pressures dictating when it's a gas or a liquid. Any contamination or mix less than pure those #s are messed with and you can't know anymore by pressures if it's even really in range of norms.


So, if not pushing in a full charge and using a running engine with compressor engaged and still done all over the place you need be fast, very fast. If it doesn't behave you stop right then and there.


Throw in that near all A/C set ups run off season as well if only for a couple seconds or more if only up to the pressure it needs to engage compressor. Engine heat can do that alone in quite cold weather. This happens on purpose to keep oils moving off season and claims to reduce moisture from air and can do this at certain temps for a while when (most) are on a defrost setting whether A/C is requested or not. So if low enough just a couple ounces of refrigerant is enough to fool it run and should quit quickly but repeatedly can't be good.


All system must have fail safe cut outs such that liquid doesn't enter compressor while engaged or risk hydraulic lock or at least choking on liquid vs gas not good for anything.


The equipment is expensive. Several what could be simple fixes take hours to get to adding insult to injury to the costs so messing with systems DIY is attractive for this and many other things.


This particular part of features vehicles have seems to catch the most to the most unwary and well meaning people of all aspects of auto service and repair.


Sorry for yet again a massive missive but there's a LOT to know and a LOT to risk for not knowing it never mind the equipment and experience of how to use it. Mistakes in this are nasty expensive,


T



Rayscopes
User

Aug 18, 2014, 3:57 PM

Post #20 of 43 (2988 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

Ok, I let it sit for a week of frustration. The pressures were equalized at 80 PSI when I hooked up the gages. When I turned on the a/c the compressor came on and high went to 200 PSI in about 2 secs and the low to 30 PSI. In a couple of secs, the hi came down to 150 PSI and the low stayed at 30 psi rock solid. The compressor didn't come on anymore and I shut the engine off after about 5 mins because the pressures stayed at 150/30 rock solid. The pressures are 125/40 and starting to equalize after 5 more mins.


Hammer Time
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Aug 18, 2014, 5:31 PM

Post #21 of 43 (2987 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

If the pressures are 150/30, how can the compressor not be running?



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Rayscopes
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Aug 18, 2014, 5:44 PM

Post #22 of 43 (2985 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

Because the clutch won't turn on unless the pressure is above 35 PSI. I thought you were the expert? The pressures aren't changing, looks like a blockage to me. Do you agree?


Hammer Time
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Aug 18, 2014, 5:56 PM

Post #23 of 43 (2984 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

Don't get mouthy with me or you will find yourself outa here faster than read this.

The switch opens at 25 PSI and closes at 43 PSI but is should travel that range in a matter of seconds. If it's not, then I would suspect a clogged orifice tube.



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Rayscopes
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Aug 18, 2014, 6:05 PM

Post #24 of 43 (2982 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

Sorry, couldn't help the remark. Thanks for your possible diagnosis. I guess my next step is a flush? Can the orifice tube be flushed? I will replace the accumulator after opening the system of course. Do you have a guess where a blockage could have came from? Could it have been the desicant bag coming apart?


Hammer Time
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Aug 18, 2014, 6:42 PM

Post #25 of 43 (2978 views)
  post locked   Re: 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L No Charge  

No, you have to replace the tube. I doubt the bag is the issue because that is after the tube in the system. It's usually metal from a grenading compressor or sealer that someone put in the system.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.







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