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2006 Mazda3- Third compressor not working. Any ideas?
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puffpuff1013
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May 28, 2011, 5:27 PM
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2006 Mazda3- Third compressor not working. Any ideas?
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I have a 2006 2.3l mazda3. The ac compressor seized about 6 months ago, no leaks.
I'm trying to fix it myself and have done the following:
(1) replaced the compressor with a salvage one and
(2) put a new drier in. I then
(3) pulled a vacuum on the system for about 30min at 28Hg, and
(4) made sure there was no leaks with vacuum off for 5min.
(2) While still under vacuum I put R134 in high side until pressure at low side read 14psi (per manual instructions), this only took an ounce or two
(5) then shut high side and added rest of can to low side (so about 12 oz of r134).
(6) static pressure (ac clutch not engaged) is about 100psi, 75F temp outside)
(7) turned car on and hit ac button, clutch engaged immediately and pressure on low side dropped to about 10 psi and then started to climb, roughly 10 seconds after clutch engaging the low side had risen to about 60 psi and was still climbing, at that point I heard some squealing and shut ac off. I looked over at high side and noticed it was lower than low side reading (but this was when the clutch was now off, didn't see value when clutch was engaged). If I let the system sit a few minutes the pressure equalizes across the two as you would expect.
(8) I took it to a local shop and they said the system looked clean and that it was my compressor.
I ended up buying another compressor, expansion valve, and receiver dryer to try it again. Unfortunately the same exact thing happened again and I'm at a loss as to what to check now.
This time I measured by weight. The manual says 17 oz for the weight. I put about 7 oz in by weight and turned the car on with the a/c. At first, the low side pressure dropped to less than 5 psi and climbed to about 60 psi with high side pressure at about 130 psi. At about this low side pressure, the belt starts to squeal or some noise near the compressor. With the compressor off, high and low side pressure is a little over 80 psi. The outside temp is about 95F.
One other thing. The manual says the system take 5.25 oz of oil. When I took off the original compressor, 2 oz of oil were in it. When I put the new compressor in, I added 4 oz to the compressor, 2 oz for the compressor and 2 oz for the refrigerant. This was all poured into the low side port and compressor was turned a few times by hand. So, the manual says about 1.50 oz should be in the condenser and evaporator total, so my 4 oz plus the 1.5 oz is roughly 5.25 oz.
Everything has been replaced now with new parts except the evaporator and condenser. While I haven't drained the oil out of either, the oil that has dripped out in between the connections appears to be clean and clear. The original seized compressor also had clean oil.
Any suggestions?
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Hammer Time
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May 28, 2011, 5:47 PM
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Re: 2006 Mazda3- Third compressor not working. Any ideas?
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You're learning a very expensive lesson on why A/C repairs are not DIY jobs and you would be ahead of the game to pay a professional to do it right.
First mistake, used compressor are high risk and rarely work. second, you never found the cause of the original failure, third, when that compressor let go all the metal and debris went right into the next component, which is the condenser. You probably made a fourth mistake and used a reman compressor instead of a new one.
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puffpuff1013
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May 28, 2011, 6:21 PM
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Yeah all good points and I'm definitely regretting it now. After the first compressor from the salvage didn't work, I did end up buying a brand new compressor, expansion valve, and receiver dryer. I haven't replaced the condenser yet. The high pressure from the compressor chamber pumps through the reed valves and into an oil reservoir that is part of the compressor. I took the cover off the oil reservoir and there was no debris at all in the oil reservoir. The high pressure hose connects to the oil reservoir cover. So I'm assuming since there was no debris at all in the oil reservoir, I don't see how debris could have gotten past the drier and into the condenser. As I mentioned before, none of the connection joints, anywhere in the ac system showed any signs of debris in them. The oil has looked perfectly clean so far.
On a side note, if there was an obstruction, wouldn't the high side get abnormally high and low side get abnormally low?
The only thing I can think of is that when I charged it today, I put about 6 oz by weight of R134a in, and when I turned on the car and the ac, the low side pressure dropped down to nearly 0 and then started climbing until it got around low side 60 and high side 120-130. With the compressor off, the pressure is about 80. So what I'm thinking is possibly air got sucked in from outside when the low side pressure was very low.
Any thoughts on this?
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Hammer Time
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May 28, 2011, 6:25 PM
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Re: 2006 Mazda3- Third compressor not working. Any ideas?
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What does the drier have to do with it? That's after the condenser.
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puffpuff1013
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May 29, 2011, 10:18 AM
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the mazda3 ac system starts at compressor, then the drier, then the condenser, then the expansion vavle, then the evaporator, and finally the compressor.
Looked at the pressure again this morning. the temperature outside was about 75 and the static pressure, ac off, on both gauges was 60psi (yesterday outside temp was 95 and static pressure was about 80). Anyhow I warmed the car up and started the ac in that order. Gauges read about 35 low side and 100 high side, after a few seconds the belt started to squeel again. And as I mentioned there's about 6-7oz of r134a in there and probably 5-6oz of total oil in the system.
Manual specs says there should be 17oz of total freon, 5.25oz of oil, and low/high pressure should be 10-20/130-160psi. Like I said before first time I started new compressor low side went down to near 0psi and went up to about 60 psi after about 10 sec (that was yesterday at 95F outside temp). Subsequent starts of ac system would drop pressure from 80 static pressure to the 60 psi, never did it drop to 0 psi again (yesterday or today).
I give up, call me stupid, but I have rebuilt automatic and manual transmissions, replaced my own differential gears, and replaced the heads on an engine before. Not to mention I have a couple advanced degrees in mechanical engineering, not that that really means anything other than I know the physics of an ac system. With that said, Hammer Time is probably right about at least one thing (maybe more), (1) I didn't find why the original compressor seized, I have no idea why other than the poor history of mazda3 ac system.
I'm going to get a quote from the dealer, and if it isn't more than $500 from a local mom and pop, I'll take it there. Last quote from a mom and pop was $1200. When it is all said and done, this will have turned into about a 2k to 3k dollar job. My advice to others, don't by a Mazda3 if you live in a hot area, your AC will fail, and it will cost a lot to fix. This is a 2006 with 60k miles on it. I have multiple Fords, a 20 year old F250 and a 10 year old ranger. AC works fine in both and I have never had the AC touched.
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Tom Greenleaf
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May 29, 2011, 10:40 AM
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Puff - this is not a good DIY thing. I suggest getting some pro help as Hammer Time just did unless you want to take this on whole Hog! Trust me - you won't save vs some pro help,
T
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puffpuff1013
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May 29, 2011, 11:51 AM
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I agree Tom. I'm taking it to a shop.
The only reason I shy away from shops is bad experience. 80% of the time one of two things happens. (1) they don't fix the problem, charge me a couple hundred and give some excuse like, the car is old you just need to replace the engine (2) they fix the problem but end up charging me for more work they didn't do (which I don't find out until I drive home and look over everything, then I usually just brush it off because I don't want the hassle). That is why I usually do all my own work. I only take it to a shop if I can't diagnose a problem myself, and hands on experience is needed. So now when I go to a shop, I like to go to a dealer because they usually work on a specific type of car a lot and know the peculiarities, and they tend to be more trustworthy, but expensive.
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puffpuff1013
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May 29, 2011, 1:39 PM
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Sorry you're right. I didn't think about that. And no disrespect, but I do understand refrigeration I just don't work with it very often. The dryer is attached to the condenser with a few pieces of very short tubing. I for some reason was thinking it was before, my bad. Regardless, I really don't think shrapnel is being pushed from the condenser to the compressor. Like I mentioned the oil reservoir on the seized compressor showed absolutely no debris at all. If debris was coming from the compressor it would have shown up there in the reservoir. Maybe there's debris somewhere else and I'm just not seeing it anywhere, but I would find it hard to believe it came from the compressor.
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Hammer Time
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May 29, 2011, 1:46 PM
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OK, if you don't want to listen, just keep putting compressors on it.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
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May 29, 2011, 2:18 PM
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Ditto - keep putting compressors in used and rebuilds AYOR at the risk of trashing thousands or more stuff. Finally new is no help. If you want A/C you probably need thousands now! Your car - you decide,
T
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puffpuff1013
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May 29, 2011, 2:58 PM
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I already said I was giving up and was going to take it to a shop. I also said the last compressor I tried was new.
I was hoping to get some ideas as to what was wrong. Great job, thanks for the help.
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puffpuff1013
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May 29, 2011, 3:03 PM
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Hammer, lets say there is debris in the system between the compressor and condenser, then why am I not seeing abnormally high high-side pressure and abnormally low low-side pressure?
These are the questions I was hoping to debate. That's the purpose of a forum. Help others, think through stuff, not to insult each other.
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Hammer Time
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May 29, 2011, 3:16 PM
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Advice is the purpose of this forum. Debate is not. We could be spending our time helping someone else rather than having to prove everything we say.
I suspect the reason is because the service port is in the liquid line and located after the pressure. There isn't much question that the compressor is seeing extreme pressures and locking up.
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Tom Greenleaf
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May 29, 2011, 3:23 PM
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No insults from me Puff. I worked hard to know what I know and tons is A/C! Getting old but at least think I still have a memory? You can argue that, LMAO.
Pick the right shop for some help. ASE certified is great but not the end all to the trade. You can get some help here or with hands on which will always beat a web site.
Don't give up - find the right shop. One teaspoonful of debris will stop the whole show............
T
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on May 29, 2011, 3:30 PM)
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puffpuff1013
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May 29, 2011, 3:59 PM
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Thanks. That's what I was looking for. Just something I can think over. In my opinion it is good to challenge responses and see the logic behind them. Just stating something isn't useful, what can anybody learn from that. Liquid in the line seems like a logical possibility. I'm not an AC expert obviously, but I'm pretty sharp and like to understand what is going on, especially after the time and $ I've spent and will be spending at a shop. I think you know where I'm coming from. Thanks Again!
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puffpuff1013
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May 29, 2011, 4:16 PM
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Sorry bit of my last post is messed up, just reread it and I think I know what Hammer is saying. So the high pressure service port (I'm nowhere near the car right now) is past the condenser where the r134a should be a liquid. So if I had a block in the condenser I would see a low pressure at the high service port, when really the compressor is seeing a much larger pressure causing it to strain/lock-up.
Makes sense, didn't think about that. I guess my next question would be why is there high pressure on the low-side port? I better check the condenser.
Sorry for doubting you Hammer. I better check the condenser. Any way to do that? Seeing as how I've already spent a lot of $ maybe I should do that before taking it down to the shop.
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Hammer Time
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May 29, 2011, 4:18 PM
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You're still not understanding. The liquid line is the name of the line after the condenser which is still part of the high side which you should already know and some cars put the service port there meaning the restriction would be before the port and not show the high pressure.
I'm sure everybody would like us to sit here and explain all the reasoning behind everything but we simply don't have time for that. We could be solving someone else's problem instead of sitting here and explaining why we give certain advice that you may not agree with.
We could tell at the beginning of this question that you don't have enough understanding of refrigeration to be doing this and since you just want to disagree until somebody explains everything to your satisfaction, I'm just going to move on to the next person that we may actually be able to help.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on May 29, 2011, 4:20 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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May 29, 2011, 4:31 PM
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Crossing swords HT.
TWO freaking years of college in A/C and I still get confused! DIY - not likely,
T
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puffpuff1013
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May 29, 2011, 5:39 PM
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Hammer, based on the post time-stamps, I'm guessing you wrote your last post while I was correcting mine. So yeah, what you said is what I had corrected in mine. I've been at work all day and have been checking in on the post while trying to design some stuff you probably don't want me to tell you about if you really think I'm a little under par. I read your liquid line post quickly, and to be honest, was just glad I got a response that gave me something to work with. So I thought liquid is trying to be compress....can't do that.....high pressure....makes sense. Then I reread it after hitting send and realized you were talking about a port after the condenser where the r134a would be a liquid. Like I said I'm not a AC expert by any means, but give me a few minutes and I can usually figure things out. Thanks Tom for catching that.
And not to beat a dead horse here. But I don't think it's ridiculous to ask for a small explanation with an answer. I would do that if you asked me about something I was an expert in, and I think others would appreciate it.
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Tom Greenleaf
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May 29, 2011, 6:19 PM
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Read top & locked post in this section - tons of useful info there,
T
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Hammer Time
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May 29, 2011, 6:23 PM
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I'm going to give you one last opinion and then i'm going to concentrate on watching the rest of the Nascar race. You're on your own from there.
Depending on where you're taking your high side reading from, I think you have either an incorrect pressure reading on your gauges due to a problem with the coupler, a restricted discharge hose that could be ruptured internally or a plugged up condenser. You'll have to figure out which by checking temperatures at various points and looking for a sudden change. It should be hot going into the condenser with a gradual transition to warm at the liquid line. You can also watch the flow in the sight glass for an interruption.
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puffpuff1013
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May 30, 2011, 1:19 PM
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Ok, I think I know what the issue is and please let the "I told you so's" come, I deserve it. I should have followed basic advice to begin with, but unfortunately I apparently have to mess up royally to learn, and this has definitely been the case here.
I took apart the seized compressor completely today, a snap ring and a deep recess was preventing me before but I purchased a new tool this morning. Anyhow, the compressor has 3 vanes, and two were snapped in half, probably one went and caused the other to go (pics attached) 
You can see some debris in the second pic, so there goes my assumption that no debris got down stream. This kind of explains some things I think. At the very first start-up the subsequent compressors would pull a vacuum for a few seconds and then slowly gain pressure, until the belt started to squeal. I'm thinking the debris scratched up the compressor chamber sealing surfaces enough to cause it to seal poorly, but not seize, still a little unsure why compressor now wants to stall after 15 seconds of starting up. But who knows, I've definitely got problems. To the shop I go.
Hammer, Tom, any idea what a complete overhaul is going to cost? I looked online and at Autozone, evaporator and condenser each run about $125 each and then another $600 for compressor, drier, and expansion valve. So roughly $1000 in parts. How much labor should this job run? Manual says to basically take entire front interior out, doors, dash, this, that, and the other. I'm taking it to a shop but I want to break the bad news to my bank acct. slowly. Can evaporators be flushed effectively, or should I insist that it be replaced?
Thanks, hope others are more careful than I was.
(BTW inlet chamber of compressor didn't have the best machining surface, pretty rough and I don't think that was caused by the broken vanes or debris)
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Hammer Time
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May 30, 2011, 1:29 PM
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Nobody said anything to you about an evaporator or expansion valve. I just took the time to tell you what the possible causes were. Nothing is going to be in the evaporator, except maybe all that oil you added. The expansion valve could get some crap in it but it's not likely anndnthat can be removed and checked anyway. Replace the condenser and dryer, remove the discharge hose and blow compressed air through is to make sure it is good and clear and not tears internally. Also make sure the cooling fan is working properly. It depends how bbad the compressor got abused whether it has to be changed or not. they may cover it under warranty.
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puffpuff1013
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May 30, 2011, 1:29 PM
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Re: 2006 Mazda3- Third compressor not working. Any ideas?
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In case anyone is wondering, high side service port is before condenser on my vehicle just looked at it.So it's between the compressor and condenser.
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