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Tom! Help me w/ my Neon, plz?
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youwildman
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Oct 15, 2009, 1:13 PM
Post #1 of 4
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Tom! Help me w/ my Neon, plz?
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It does not take long on this forum to realize that Tom from Mass knows his stuff! I am teetering on the brink of homelessness and my Neon just went into the shop. I need help badly and quickly as the garage I had to have it towed to is not the most reputable bunch. I have a '98 dodge Neon that has been pretty darn good and served me well. About this time last year I had a problem that at first I didn't catch; When it is cold out, the key will often stay on and not spring back and return when let go. The signs were that the brake and airbag light stayed on and the radio didn't come on--it was stuck in "accessories position" I guess. The first couple times it happened I quickly "inched it back" and the starter stopped turning and all was fixed. I sprayed some lube in the keyhole (I know now, white grease is better) and for a year this problem did not occur.
This morning was around fifty degrees and I had left the radio on loud and jumped in and as as I was pulling out of the parking lot heard a kind of intermittent grinding and thought--oh, no--the CV's are finally going--or else it is the tranny! I had to drive about three or four blocks before I could find a safe place to pull over and turned it off. I then realized that it might have been the old "sticking ignition" problem returned. I was plenty worried that I'd driven it too long with the key stuck in ignition mode.
When I went to crank it, it seems the starter was turning but not engaging at all and not turning the fly wheel at all. Did I just burn up the starter, grind the teeth off of it or what? I guess it is not the relay or else I would not have heard anything at all when I cranked it--let alone a phantom sound of a starter spinning but not engaging.
As I pulled out of the parking lot and grabbed at the radio to turn it down, it was not squealing like when someone turns the key to start when a car was already running. Like I said, I thought it was something like CV's or tranny as it was making an intermittent grinding noise--maybe I didn't hear it until it had already stripped the starter teeth but I really didn't go that far and heard nothing awful nor smelt any burning metal. I've found out that the starter solenoid is not sold separately and will need a new starter--if that is what it is.
I'm in serious danger here as I have just started living out of a storage shed and this car and have next to no money. I did find a starter at a not-too-distant junkyard for 50 bucks rather than the $170 that autozone wants. (When did starters triple in price, anyway?) I'm on foot and trying to hold down a job and the $75 in labor this mechanic wants to change the starter sounds reasonable but I want to make sure that that is what's wrong and that he won't try and gouge a guy while he is down--ME! youwildman at hotmail
(This post was edited by youwildman on Oct 15, 2009, 1:16 PM)
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Sidom
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/ Moderator
Oct 15, 2009, 5:51 PM
Post #2 of 4
(1833 views)
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Re: Tom! Help me w/ my Neon, plz?
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Well I'm not Tom but I'll offer my 2¢ for what it's worth.......
Sounds like you already know the problem. Sounds like the main problem is the ign sw sticking that tore up the starter & ring gear. So basically to get it up & going 1st you will need to fix the ign sw and then replace the starter & ring gear and you should be good.......
OK that won't work and you need a plan B.... This is something that may work but that I would never do at work (I'll get to why later)
1st thing you need to do is r&r the starter and get a look at the ring gear and see how bad it is. I've seen them worn back where a new starter with a good drive would catch & turn the motor over. If that will work then you need to hook up a button for the starter and stop using the ign sw for starting.....run only. If you are lucky enough where a new starter will still work with a worn ring gear, one more sticking incident and the ring gear will have to be replaced, no other options......
Now if you can't do this, you're probably gonna have to find a backyarder to do this (now the reason I wouldn't) You mentioned "gouging a guy" and that really not the case. I'll give you a look from a tech's point of view. 30 years ago this wouldn't of been a problem to do....Things have changed. Now if you try to do the customer a favor and it goes south....Man watch out..... Take your job..... If a guy came in and wanted this done & I did it and it didn't work, this guy would be back screaming, throwing a fit AND NOW wanting the ring gear, ign sw and new starter.... all for free and threatening to sue for it ..... I've seen it a dozen times and I guarantee any tech here could tell you similar stories of being burned trying to do someone a favor. Years ago you could take a gamble on a job like this, trying to save someone money and if the gamble didn't work.....No harm no foul, at least you tried....... Nowadays...what ever you do.....better work
I've told you a cheap way that MAY work and I hope it does for you. But just realize most shops will want to do the job correctly, for a couple of reasons..... 1, they do quality work and 2 for the reasons I mentioned earlier....
(This post was edited by Sidom on Oct 15, 2009, 5:55 PM)
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youwildman
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Oct 15, 2009, 7:06 PM
Post #3 of 4
(1822 views)
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Re: Tom! Help me w/ my Neon, plz?
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Thanks "Si" I hate it when it is something bad and I know it--much less stressful to know nothing--but more expensive. My question to you is "Is the ring gear, the flywheel?" Is that what the small starter gear grabs and turns? I saw all kinds of things about "shims" in posts I read today--but even a year ago when it did this thing the first time--there was no high pitched screeching like the teeth were trying to shear each other off.
I'm not worried about the key and ignition--it has been a rare occurrence and all I need to do is make sure that the key returns after I start it--even if just by getting in the habit of turning it back a notch by hand as it starts. Just lubing the keyhole cured it last time and today was the first time in a year and likely cuz it was cold out.
Darn, I hope the "ring gear" is not the flywheel and hope the fly wheel is not ground down. I have not had any issues for a year and this is the first time it has happened this season and I only ran it for about three or four minutes...and even worse, I am so "up against it" that I am going to have to try a junkyard starter. Autozone can bench test them while out of the car, right? Before I pay $75 for him to put it in? That is one of the reasons I thought to go with the junk yard part.
And I am right that it isn't a relay or else nothing would be spinning at all, yes? I asked the mechanic over the phone that when he checked it out would he switch the fan motor relay into it and see if it made a difference? I know just enough to confuse myself, huh? I got no choice this time--do not have the luxury of just dropping it on someone and then throwing money at it....
Oh man, that "shade tree mechanic" scenario sounded like when I was going to have the tranny fluid changed on a '68 Rambler--the guy said, "I'll do it but you might not be able to back it on the lift if the varnish is the only think making the 'fingers mesh'."
My grandpa was a shade tree mechanic and when people told him he had a nice dog and say "What's his name?" Gramps would tell them "Ask 'em." (That was the dog's name.) If they bent down and looked at the dog and said, "What's your name boy?"-- Grandpa would over charge them!
(This post was edited by youwildman on Oct 15, 2009, 7:30 PM)
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Sidom
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/ Moderator
Oct 15, 2009, 7:36 PM
Post #4 of 4
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Re: Tom! Help me w/ my Neon, plz?
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Well...Yes the ring gear and flywheel are basically the samething. The ring gear is the toothed ring that goes around the flywheel (actually you have a flex plate but lets not confuse things anymore we'll call it a flywheel) so the starter can turn the flywheel.
But hey, lets not get ahead of ourselves. I'm online, I can't see the flywheel or starter and it's very possible you just have a bad starter. Just from what you posted about the starter staying engaged while the engine was running made me think that had to have been hard on the flywheel.
1st thing is to get it check out. If you don't have the equipment to do it, call around and get a price on getting it checked and the labor on r&ring a starter, make sure they will install customer supplied parts ( some shops won't) but realize there will be no warranty, meaning if the starter is or goes bad, you will have to pay the labor again to r&r it for the exchange. Maybe get a price on the whole job, if it's close, just have them do it, that way you get a warranty.
Hopefully it's just a starter and yes it could also be a bad spot on the flywheel, try to turn the motor over by hand to clear the bad spot and see if it will crank. Once again, I'm online and going off what you've posted but at the minimum you should at least change the starter... Check around for prices on rebuilts..... I checked the Pepboys website & there was one for $119, that was for SOHC.....you didn't say whether you have a single or dual.........
Hopefully thing will work out for ya.....
(This post was edited by Sidom on Oct 15, 2009, 7:40 PM)
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