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Should replacing a 2-row rad with a 1-row cause problems?
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joezapp
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Dec 6, 2016, 10:35 AM
Post #26 of 38
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Re: Should replacing a 2-row rad with a 1-row cause problems?
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Hi Tom. With the first guy, he was young but he did really seem to know what he was doing. He seemed like a real nice guy, too. I told him about the poor running issue, but we couldn't even address that until we resolved what the cooling problem was first. After exhausting all other possibilities, he DID conclude that the issue had to be the radiator. He felt that there was resistance in the flow of the upper hose. He was determined to find the radiator he wanted on Saturday at another local radiator warehouse. I doubted that he would find it, but we agreed that the old radiator would be reinstalled if he couldn't locate the one he wanted. He never wanted to put the old one back in, and obviously when he saw that doing that was his only choice for now, he decided to lose touch with me. Inconsiderate, of course, and stupid because I had a lot of maintenance work already lined up with him, but I've found that this is what we deal with today especially with the young guys. When they run into a puzzle, they'd rather lose touch. They're living in a new society that's so impersonal that they can choose to lose contact...and they do. You may remember that I had a terrific mechanic for 21 years. He fell into bad health. I've had a very difficult time finding his replacement.
The new guy got the old radiator back in very late. After he topped off the ATF, I decided that if the van still ran poorly on the way home that I would have him test drive it next. So that's where I'm at. This is really the first opportunity now that the overheat threat is gone.
I will disconnect the negative terminal to present a reset before going to him. I will also run the van and check the tranny fluid again. I will remind the mechanic that the loss-of-power issue was apparent as soon as I stepped on the accelerator driving away from the first installation, that the van was in a threat to overheat but was shut off prior each time, and he already knows about the tranny fluid showing low. I will also remind him that the van was running wonderfully right up until the first radiator installation. After he test drives it, I would hope that he would have some clues. I would hope that he can tell if this is a tranny issue or more of an electrical issue. I'll bring up your suggestions, although I would hope that I wouldn't have to!
Thank you, as always. Indeed, this procedure that was supposed to be simple has spiraled into a mess. I'll post the updates.
(This post was edited by joezapp on Dec 6, 2016, 2:49 PM)
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joezapp
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Dec 6, 2016, 10:42 AM
Post #27 of 38
(777 views)
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Re: Should replacing a 2-row rad with a 1-row cause problems?
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Hi Hammer Time. I agree. Yes, it could very well have been defective. Or possibly not installed properly, but that's unlikely because the new guy who re-installed the old radiator would have noticed. But I will not chance a 1025 aftermarket radiator again when I have other options.
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joezapp
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Dec 18, 2016, 11:06 PM
Post #28 of 38
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Re: Should replacing a 2-row rad with a 1-row cause problems?
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After over 3 weeks of misery with this, I have conclusion...and it's good news!
So we've concluded already that I likely had a defective new radiator. Or it just wouldn't work in my vehicle for whatever reason. I've already stated that in time I will have the old radiator rebuilt. For the time being it functions well...just a pinhole leak that's barely noticeable...and I will ride out the winter like that. We don't use it much in the winter to avoid the road salt.
As far as the loss of power/tranny issue: I already stated that I had to add 1 1/2 qts tranny fluid. It turns out that was overstated a bit.
We just came off an arctic blast, and another one is here. We had 12 hours of balmy weather in between. During that time Saturday, I gave the van a real test with a lot of driving. It started off as sluggishly as it's been. However, there was indeed improvement on my way to my new mechanic (the same guy who re-installed my old radiator) for the test ride. The mechanic was very satisfied with the operation. He says the tranny was shifting properly. It seems with more and more driving, the van was operating more and more normally. A check of the now hot tranny fluid reveals that it is now in the top of the range. Therefore, it was likely only 1/2 to 3/4 qt low to begin with...taking note that there is a low and high end to the range.
So here's my conclusion: the tranny has 202,000 original miles. I already have a small leak. The tranny was probably nearly 1/2 qt low when the new radiator was installed. The tranny fluid lost on the switch, as little as it was, was probably enough for the tranny to display dissatisfaction. Being an old tranny, it probably wasn't going to react quickly to the new tranny fluid that was added. I know first-hand that there is often a delayed acceptance of new tranny fluid by an old tranny. I can tell stories about that! So I believe that the new fluid is now accepted.
So after all this time and expense, I'm back to square one...a good-running vehicle with a pinhole radiator leak...and I couldn't be happier! I've also found the new mechanic that I will likely use for many years. Seems real good, and definitely someone who takes pride in his work and appreciates his customers.
Thanks to everyone for all the input. I received some great advice and a lot of sympathy. I learned a lot about radiators, cooling systems, air pockets, and what to do about air pockets. I really appreciate you guys!
(This post was edited by joezapp on Dec 18, 2016, 11:10 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 19, 2016, 2:37 AM
Post #29 of 38
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Re: Should replacing a 2-row rad with a 1-row cause problems?
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Thanks for this update Joe. That pin hole leak in radiator will need to be fixed. Radiator shop again could fix that on some just take out one the many rows, soldering that one off or "recore" the whole thing if a must.
Reason is probably causes a zero pressure operating cooling system.
Trivia: For each Lb. of pressure as regulated by a radiator cap you gain 3*F of boiling point much like the action of a pressure cooker.
Since engines run so close to boiling points you need the extra temp before boiling or boiling coolant will behave as air in the system. It's cool at best in most places and did that Arctic Blast thing where I am as well then the spike to mid 50sF a surprise.
In short even when super cold (it was below zero here) you still need the cooling system working as intended.
Just think about that and it might not show itself now but would when temps come back up to stay later or prolonged idling, stop and go traffic even when very cold out.
Good luck. Hit me with a PM anytime if wish for ideas that can help with really a failed radiator even redone it should have been found then and declared not fixable,
T
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joezapp
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Dec 19, 2016, 10:54 AM
Post #30 of 38
(722 views)
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Re: Should replacing a 2-row rad with a 1-row cause problems?
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Thanks, Tom. I always learn a little more from you. Thanks for that bit of cooling system trivia. A radiator cap controls the pressure of the radiator. Makes all the sense in the world that a pinhole leak will compromise effect of the radiator cap's job. What this means is that I will not "let it go for a while". I have some time since we basically won't be driving the vehicle through the winter's road salt, but rebuilding the radiator will be on the early spring agenda for sure. Since the radiator is very old, I think I will feel safer just having the whole new core built for me. But they are the experts on this, so they'll examine it and tell me what they see at that time.
I've never been happier to be back to square 1! Thank again for all your help.
Joe
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Dec 19, 2016, 11:48 AM
Post #31 of 38
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Re: Should replacing a 2-row rad with a 1-row cause problems?
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They don't re-core radiators any more. They did that back when they had metal tanks that could be re-used. You can't re-use a plastic tank. The plastic is usually the source of the leak anyway.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Dec 19, 2016, 1:26 PM
Post #32 of 38
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Re: Should replacing a 2-row rad with a 1-row cause problems?
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It's true Joe what HT just said the end tanks of plastic are not feasible to recore and haven't yet sought out anyone trying to do that as cost of new is usually quite reasonable that will work as intended and fit as intended.
I'm sure it's done for custom work, creative projects just not so easy for a known vehicle.
To peg this as you understand the pressure cap is set to a pressure, usually 15lbs or close. It must be able to achieve that just through expansion of coolant is why at first and controls that boiling point and remains liquid through system is mandatory.
Pressure cap also allows for contraction of the coolant and will draw back from the bottom of any tank for overflow from the bottom assuring only liquid returns.
That's all defeated with the slightest leak. Cold as it gets when you first shut down an engine the coolant gets hotter than when it was when running for a short time no longer circulating so yes even when wildly cold you need this design to work - about any liquid cooled engine to anything does,
Tom
PS: My fear is since you know it has ONE pin hole on this old of a radiator is probably has countless more just waiting............
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joezapp
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Dec 19, 2016, 4:16 PM
Post #33 of 38
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Re: Should replacing a 2-row rad with a 1-row cause problems?
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I've had so many people recommend that I rebuild this core over the past few weeks that this news came as a surprise. Are we absolutely sure that this is a plastic core radiator? While I can't be certain, it may be the original radiator for this 1992 van. If it was changed, it was pre-2008...
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 19, 2016, 4:48 PM
Post #34 of 38
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Re: Should replacing a 2-row rad with a 1-row cause problems?
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You can easily tell by looking at it but every radiator I have worked on in the last 15 years has been plastic with aluminum with the exception of a few trucks.
In the old days they were brass/copper, tanks and core.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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joezapp
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Dec 19, 2016, 9:29 PM
Post #35 of 38
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Re: Should replacing a 2-row rad with a 1-row cause problems?
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This one may not be plastic. It may be the original radiator. Van is nearly 25 years old. The mechanic who put it back in recommended that I take it to a radiator shop for rebuild. Maybe he could tell it wasn't plastic, but I'll find out. Thanks!
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 20, 2016, 1:44 AM
Post #36 of 38
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Re: Should replacing a 2-row rad with a 1-row cause problems?
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This is around the time of almost universal change of materials used. The end tanks were once always a metal and the "core" soldered into the end tanks. Plastic tanks will crimp in the core to the tank usually.
Whatever was used originally would usually need to be replaced or fixed in some way by this age. Some corrosion or wear happen from both types and from the outside and the inside of a radiator. Some will plug up the tubes that carry coolant with debris caused by an electrical cause that can show as a grey or white build up if you can view it thru a radiator cap - some you don't see this some you do. That doesn't always flush out even when a "radiator" shop might dunk entire thing in an acid bath to clean one up to work on one,
T
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joezapp
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Dec 23, 2016, 6:10 PM
Post #37 of 38
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Re: Should replacing a 2-row rad with a 1-row cause problems?
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Makes sense, Tom. Since the previous owner was a mechanic (my wife's grandfather), it's possible that he refused a plastic core radiator...if he changed the radiator at all. If I cannot repair this radiator (which at least I know works), I will likely special order the 3-row equivalent...JUST IN CASE THE 2-ROW EQUIVALENT RADIATOR THAT FAILED WASN'T DEFECTIVE. Thanks, and Happy Holidays!
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 24, 2016, 12:50 AM
Post #38 of 38
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Re: Should replacing a 2-row rad with a 1-row cause problems?
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Happy Holidays back at you. Don't get too caught up in the number of rows it's really about how much heat can be exchanged by what design that also must fit.
Think: Adding rows if they were each 1/2 the ability is just a numbers game and doesn't always mean more cooling power. Type of metals and materials used changes as mentioned but can still do the same job. Knowing what BTU a certain radiator is rated at is probably near impossible to find out for sure if not exactly what it called for new which just may not be practical or possible.
Long thread so gets harder to know where we are: If fans are not right it matters. If you are missing the air dam under front bumper it can matter for vehicle in motion mostly helps force more air thru the grille. It all matters,
Tom
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