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My front brake pad was locked would this cause the Timing Belt to jump?
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Evergreen303
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Mar 10, 2017, 2:18 AM
Post #1 of 26
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My front brake pad was locked would this cause the Timing Belt to jump?
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1990 Honda CRX Si D16A6, 1.6 16V SOHC MPFI, 105-108hp
PM6 ECU - Engine Honda Civic 1600 - with 135K Miles Manual Transmission
I recently put in a new head gasket on in my car and I had the head vapor blasted and a valve job done, I got the car running good in idle and it seemed 100% ok, I was having a problem with it where after a few minutes of driving it, it would not accelerate right and the rpms would go up and down like crazy and the temp gauge would go to the H for under a second and it would jump around. I thought it was because I had the timing off so I got a timing gun and set it and I tried driving it again and this happened. When I was driving my car I notice after driving it for around 3 to 5 minutes or so that the car would not have alot of power and the RPM's would go up and then down fast and the temp gauge would go to the H for less then a sec and jump around and the car seemed like it wanted to die. After about 5 minutes of this on the way home from a local store it died, It rolled to a stop and I seen smoke coming from it. I found out that the smoke was from the front drivers side brake and it was very hot it seems to be stuck compressed but the car still rolls. I noticed the timing belt jumped about 4 to 6 teeth, I think. I would like to know if a sticking brake can cause this?
(This post was edited by Evergreen303 on Mar 17, 2017, 11:47 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 10, 2017, 2:40 AM
Post #2 of 26
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Re: My front brake pad was locked would this cause the belt to jump?
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! Timing belt jumped 4-6 teeth! Why? That would kill it all over again. Brakes use proper running engine for power assist which it would lose if running that poorly or not at all. That alone didn't cause the engine problems rather the other way around.
I think you need to start this job over again and not allow these mistakes. Timing off that much you may have already caused head problems again and be starting all over?
T
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Evergreen303
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Mar 10, 2017, 8:51 AM
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Re: My front brake pad was locked would this cause the belt to jump?
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The timing was not off I set it right before I went out.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 10, 2017, 9:07 AM
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Re: My front brake pad was locked would this cause the belt to jump?
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Timing by light set or what you said Quoting YOU ">>I noticed the timing belt jumped about 4 to 6 teeth, I think. I would like to know if a sticking brake can cause this? <<"
When was that? After you replaced the timing belt and had you even cranked it yet? IDK how far off it would have to be ONCE if cranked only but somewhere in the # of teeth off you risk crunching/bending valves on this didn't check but almost all are "interference engines" so can't be off or a belt break.
I'm not following you on a connection between a brake and this head gasket job. Only thing they share is a vacuum booster must have a good running engine to provide vacuum otherwise brakes and engine are separate issues.
Which one is giving you fits the most? Brake that's locked or the way engine runs now?
FYI - "pads" or caliper that locks can be the hose to it only lets fluid in not out. If frozen in front of you just loosen bleeder and if it frees right up the hose is bad so do both. This is age, time stuff nothing to do with a head gasket job that I can think of,
T
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 10, 2017, 9:22 AM
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Re: My front brake pad was locked would this cause the belt to jump?
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New post not editing the last I wrote. Have to read run on posts to follow you. Please use spaces between thoughts.
Your question: Will frozen brake cause engine temp to spike? Just that if I read you now: Not really if cooling system is good should handle that. If just filled or not totally full engine may not purge out last bubbles well or much at all. You did a head gasket so hope you know how to fill a cooling system. Some are a pest to get last bubble out.
If some but not much remains it could spike for a second and return to normal range as sensor in vapor not liquid is confused. Once for a second when just running and quickly self corrected I would freak over yet.
Reason is it's old and just did a lot of work, parts off and back on a bubble not excessive might cause that and not be overheating. Brake too if cooling system can't handle it that if you know it's full - not just the radiator the engine and holds pressure properly again a good cooling system wouldn't normally overheat from the load of a failed brake.
Now I'm not so sure this job went all that well or car has a host of problems and you are just now finding them out one by one like you just own the thing,
T
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Evergreen303
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Mar 10, 2017, 9:30 AM
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Re: My front brake pad was locked would this cause the belt to jump?
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I used the timing gun to set it. I did forget to go into service mode but I still set it, I hope it was ok but maybe it was wrong a small bit or so, would this of caused the engine to act funny with the rpms jumping all over the place and the temp going to H for a sec and jumping around?
As for now, I just put the belt back to normal and I cranked it by hand and it feels fine and it's lined up again with the marks on the crankshaft and the head cylinders gear but now the car won't start.
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Evergreen303
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Mar 10, 2017, 9:34 AM
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Re: My front brake pad was locked would this cause the belt to jump?
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I did forgot to purge out the bubbles when I put the coolant in, will all I did was leave the cap off the cooling system while running the car to get the bubbles out, but I forgot to use the screw thing to do it like I also should of. And after the car died the engine seemed hot. I guess that is the problem, thanks very much.
Now how do I fix it and what problems do you think I have now?
(This post was edited by Evergreen303 on Mar 10, 2017, 9:52 AM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 10, 2017, 9:58 AM
Post #8 of 26
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Re: My front brake pad was locked would this cause the belt to jump?
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I used the timing gun to set it. I did forget to go into service mode but I still set it, I hope it was ok but maybe it was wrong a small bit or so, would this of caused the engine to act funny with the rpms jumping all over the place and the temp going to H for a sec and jumping around?
As for now, I just put the belt back to normal and I cranked it by hand and it feels fine and it's lined up again with the marks on the crankshaft and the head cylinders gear but now the car won't start
(That was your first of two posts untouched by me.)
*****************************************
OK - You forgot to set which timing before "service mode" I interpret as ready to run the engine - right? There's timing for the belt and timing for the ignition timing - two different things. The belt stays where you put it hopefully the ignition timing if off you set properly if disturbed and it was. It that was off but belt was correct before engine turned or run fine. Not the other way around.
Then you said you didn't purge out air and drove this? Temp gauge read erratic would be no surprise. You can't just drive off in much of any vehicle just filling it up as much as radiator hold and recovery tanks hold and let it finish itself you bleed air out or wait for level to drop in radiator - an hour if need be before driving it. Just letting it warm up till thermostat opens isn't very good to an engine ever and topping off a couple time fine for some ancient old cast iron thing which this isn't. So yes you could have harmed it again from either really overheating or timing belt which controls valve timing off enough to bend up valves a little or a lot wouldn't run at all any more.
Your subject line was about brake involved? Leave that out for now as you need to know if this engine is damaged all over again. Compression check suggested now to see if it's ok to run just sitting there then let's get to brakes.
What caused you to change the belt in the first place? Were you driving this car before and knew it was unknown how old it was so needed to do this or what?
Don't drive it till engine is right sitting still then before driving it find out what the problem is with the brake they shouldn't be related unless as already said engine is running low compression can't make proper vacuum either for the booster which would make a hard brake pedal not a locked brake pad - two different things. Engine would run lousy if at all too,
T
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Evergreen303
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Mar 10, 2017, 10:09 AM
Post #9 of 26
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Re: My front brake pad was locked would this cause the belt to jump?
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I set the ignition timing and I never changed the belt.
I think the belt and the ignition timing was right before I drove it.
I think you are right about it being the bubbles.
So what now, should I take the head off and see if any of the valves are bent? The engine turns easy by hand when using a wrench on the crankshaft.
(This post was edited by Evergreen303 on Mar 10, 2017, 10:57 AM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 10, 2017, 10:54 AM
Post #10 of 26
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Re: My front brake pad was locked would this cause the belt to jump?
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Yikes - and sorry too. There are apparently a couple versions of the 1.6 engine! You said you jumped the "timing" belt somehow and they are not all the same.
In turning a distributor for timing if this one is that way shouldn't matter to belt where it was if you did that properly.
So lost as to which problem is which now with this. You just now said you never touched the belt/chain or whatever and it was right before driving off.
Complete with us misunderstanding each other if for any reason the "valve timing" was off you could have harmed the valves. All said it is in fact an interference engine any which way.
Now if it did damage it also wouldn't have turned by hand and cranking alone is very strong even if it didn't run. That would then bend valves (usually) if off enough for any reason showing up as low compression if engine turns now and maybe runs but not well at all.
Added to this is probably did overheat and we'll never know how badly or I that is another new problem?
I'm having a hard time finding the exact engine and layout of it. Anytime you fill a cooling system you must know it's full enough or totally full which you admit it wasn't. Just FYI almost anything if you run the heater while first testing it would stay warm without going cold then warm/hot back and forth or staying just cold it's so low on coolant all bets are off if you drove it if the thing was brand new - the whole car.
Refresh now: You do NOT need to remove the cylinder head to know valves are OK or not. You would see that in lost compression.
I am sorry finding two layouts for this. One the timing belt also runs the water pump you would change as a set and more with zero mistakes. Now you said you didn't change it so I'm the one confused where you trouble is. You mention brake locking up and how that or if that caused a belt to jump - any belt? That I can't think of any connection or reason it would or even could.
Check that compression is even and high enough to prove the engine is healthy and let's move on from knowing that much is right,
T
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Evergreen303
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Mar 10, 2017, 11:55 AM
Post #11 of 26
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Re: My front brake pad was locked would this cause the belt to jump?
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My engine is a Honda Civic 1600 I took some pics of the Engine specs sticker under the hood here they are http://imgur.com/a/ldLZt
(This post was edited by Evergreen303 on Mar 10, 2017, 12:07 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 10, 2017, 12:17 PM
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Re: My front brake pad was locked would this cause the belt to jump?
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Got it. 1600 is same as 1.6 just BTW.
1 question for now. Which belt jumped and how did it jump?
Tom
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Evergreen303
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Mar 10, 2017, 12:55 PM
Post #13 of 26
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Re: My front brake pad was locked would this cause the belt to jump?
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The timing belt jumped. I'm not sure when exactly it happened but I noticed it right after it was jumping up and down in RPMs and the Temp Gauge was going all over the place and the car died. It rolled into my driveway.
I also before this happened and I had the car idling and it seemed fine but sometimes when I would rev it to around 3k and let off the gas it would fall below the normal idle speed of 900 rpms. It would go down to around maybe 300 to 400 RPMs or so and it seemed like it wanted to die but then it would be ok after a sec or 2.
Also when I was cranking it by hand I can feel some resistance from the compression, I think. It's not all free moving as if it does not have any compression like it may of seemed like I meant when I said it moves freely. It's not all free it does feel like there is compression resistance for a bit of the time when you turn it.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 10, 2017, 1:19 PM
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Re: My front brake pad was locked would this cause the belt to jump?
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Getting there I think? How did you even look for the timing belt after now sure sounds like an overheat? It should be covered and accessory belt(s) outside of that, that run off the lower pulley which is the "harmonic balancer." Distributor at other end turns to adjust is what I looked at for this.
Places for troubles are everywhere but not jumping a real cogged timing belt if it was right first when head was redone. There's assorted kits with water pump and adjusters too cost lots more than belt alone.
That shouldn't jump is what I'm saying so must have been already off somehow or a tensioner let loose and now isn't? Can't know that one.
You do still need to know if compression is right by real #s and pressures if found a timing issue at all for "valve timing" not ignition timing.
So much comes off to remove head that seals coolant, oil, combustion pressure and intake parts like manifold to leak would give you erratic RPM if any of that wrong.
I saw in your picture and others the label of valve adjustment. Who did that and how? There's a lot to do to just remove and replace this head the valves are not automatically adjusted like hydraulic lifter types you set them - spec listed of that sticker you posted.
Take a breath and do some checks of what you've already done. If compression shows low or erratic you could put a couple cylinder on TDC and blow air into spark plug hole, engine off and hear where air comes out proving problems.
Sorry it's complicated by the overheat too. Sticker says not to touch or fill by radiator cap is for a new or just a check as there's pressure there when hot normally but misleading in this case. You have to but know no pressure from heat is all.
Do some checking of your work and see if you find anything clearly wrong. Hope nothing happened to redone head you said you sent out should have had whatever needed done and checked or hope so,
Tom
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Evergreen303
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Mar 10, 2017, 1:30 PM
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Re: My front brake pad was locked would this cause the belt to jump?
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I have not put the timing belt cover on yet, so I can see it easily and I put marks on it when I was doing the work on the head gasket. It so happened that the marks were out of place and easily seen. Because of the smoke coming from the tire I decided to open the hood and My brother seen it right after I opened the hood. It was very smart of him to look for it. :)
I had a shop that does motor work do it and they set it to the specs listed on that sticker, I sent them the specs, so the knew what to do.
I removed all the coolant and the oil when I was doing the work on the head gasket.
I will rent a Valve Compression Test Kit at AutoZone when I get some money for it but that could be a while.
(This post was edited by Evergreen303 on Mar 10, 2017, 1:39 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 10, 2017, 1:49 PM
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Re: My front brake pad was locked would this cause the belt to jump?
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OK - BTW - Autozone should rent the compression tester. A few types - one that stops and stays at highest reading I like. Remember, 4th pulse of compression you count, throttle held open and all plugs out. Note readings from which cylinder and again with a squire of oil how much higher - that's about it,
Tom
PS: Take up brakes on another thread totally when this is solved........
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Evergreen303
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Mar 10, 2017, 2:13 PM
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Re: My front brake pad was locked would this cause the belt to jump?
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1 more thing I noticed alot of metal junk, I think. I found about 2 or 3 Teaspoons worth from the old gasket in the bottom of the coolant holes by the sides of the pistons. I cleaned it out but maybe some got deeper inside causing problems.
(This post was edited by Evergreen303 on Mar 10, 2017, 2:18 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 10, 2017, 2:35 PM
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Re: My front brake pad was locked would this cause the belt to jump?
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Geez - How many cooks are in this kitchen? I thought YOU took the head off so how was that allowed? If enough junk that's almost impossible to clear out totally now back together or caught up at inlet radiator tank where fins are probably. Just another snag thrown in this not needed. Nothing short of pulling out all freeze plugs, head back off and blast it all out is going to much more if you can't see it,
Tom (over and out for a while now)
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Evergreen303
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Mar 10, 2017, 3:01 PM
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Re: My front brake pad was locked would this cause the belt to jump?
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I just noticed that the ECU fuse is blown. I put a good fuse in and I just tried starting and I noticed that the ECU fuse is blown again. Here is what I found out about it http://www.quickhonda.net/manual/2gem/images/em-90-23-10.jpg
It blows even when I just put the key in and turn it but not start it. I think I'm going to get a wire probe kit and hopefully find out the problem.
(This post was edited by Evergreen303 on Mar 10, 2017, 8:33 PM)
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Evergreen303
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Mar 11, 2017, 12:06 AM
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Re: My front brake pad was locked would this cause the belt to jump?
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I got like everything out that I could see, I drained the coolant and it was at the bottom of it. I didn't leave it in there.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 11, 2017, 12:29 AM
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1990 Honda CRX Si 1.6L - Engine Honda Civic 1600 - with 135K Miles Manual Transmission
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Evergreen303: I changed subject line to what this car is not the list of troubles encountered in just this thread.
Let's start over and pick a plan that suits you. This car has several issues going on all at once. A few people/techs working on it and apparently a lack of proper tools for some of the needed work to fix or diagnose problems one by one.
It's going to come down deciding if this is really going to work out for you and your situation and help available to you plus the budget for this car now considered an antique car going by the 25 model year marker.
What are we going to do? Actually it's what are YOU going to do?
Needed basics: Some serious know how, parts, services, tools + equipment and the place to work on this and have it at all as it's not running or road ready yet.
I'm questioning if this car is going to work out at all for you or if you are determined enough for this car.
What I can do is just steer you in the right direction for now detailed help which is going to end up getting your own comprehensive AllData service manual for just this car available on line and print out as needed what you need. IDK, maybe paper manuals and diagrams for this available out there would be more useful.
You are over 1,000 miles from me so in person isn't going to happen.
This car has to be real close to rust free, straight body without killer problems such as will need a whole engine/transaxle or just endless assorted other problems that could require an identical parts car to make one good one out of two is what I'm seeing here.
Site isn't set up for a total restoration of vehicle which is where you have to surround yourself with the people and places to get thru one issue at a time like sending the head out for a valve job that hasn't worked out well at all still unknown if that alone is now a set back not progress at all.
It overheated AFTER that and threw a belt off. Cooling system MAY have debris in "water jackets" of engine from gasket scraping. It's not running so can't know if that's a killer or not.
Let's start over and pick a plan for you that will work out. A website alone isn't going to be the answer for a list of issues coming along like this.
I'll send you a PM = Private Message as to an idea as this is going to take more help than just a website is going to do,
Tom
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Evergreen303
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Mar 11, 2017, 1:26 AM
Post #22 of 26
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Re: 1990 Honda CRX Si 1.6L - Engine Honda Civic 1600 - with 135K Miles Manual Transmission
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I'm going to flush the cooling system out.
I'm also going to fix the wiring short.
I'm going to do a compression test.
If it does not start I will tow it to a mechanic to diagnose it.
No matter what I will get it to a mechanic to test it.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Mar 11, 2017, 1:44 AM
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Re: 1990 Honda CRX Si 1.6L - Engine Honda Civic 1600 - with 135K Miles Manual Transmission
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Now that's a plan!
Do this: When you drain coolant catch it for inspection of what's in it into a clean catch pan or how you can do that with what you have. Some ways could be drain thru a coffee filter into a clear glass or something clear and see what you have in the filter.
Good luck,
Tom
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Evergreen303
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Mar 17, 2017, 11:49 PM
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Re: 1990 Honda CRX Si 1.6L - Engine Honda Civic 1600 - with 135K Miles Manual Transmission
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Update: I just found out that the fuse is blowing because I have a bad ECU Computer. I'm going to replace it. I think this is what has been causing my problems. I seen that the ECU Computer case has corrosion on the bottom left side and it's so bad that the bolt hole has broken off.
(This post was edited by Evergreen303 on Mar 17, 2017, 11:52 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Mar 18, 2017, 12:49 AM
Post #25 of 26
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Re: 1990 Honda CRX Si 1.6L - Engine Honda Civic 1600 - with 135K Miles Manual Transmission
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Depending on extent and type of corrosion you are possibly going to find this project a lost cause. Just how do you know what causes a fuse to blow either wiring or this ECU itself? Is the fuse box even intact or worth a damn at all as well?
Watch your wallet on this thing and know when to quit,
T
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